Daniel Zaragoza

[Autobarn]

Wonderful fighter, took place in some great fights and had that career defining win over the fancied McCullough before getting a bit of a spanking from Morales.

What were "The Mouse's" best fights?

What were his best wins?

Were his wins over top Asian fighters underrated?

Did he deserve to get in the HOF? Fenech was all over him, just too strong, Patterson seemed to have his number...

[Ox Baker]

His win over McCullough was just the icing on the cake, like Joe Frazier's knockdown of Ali in the 15th round.

[bollox]

Not sure if he's worthy of the HOF but he definitely deserves a mention for a bantamweight baing a titleholder at 40

And yeah, Fenech was all over him. Simply too strong

[giacomino]

Dude was tough as nails. He fought about 20 fights against champions or ex champions and won at least half of them. His wins over Tatsuyoshi late in his career were big because they were both on the road in Japan against a talented, incredibly popular local fight. His Banke fights were great fun to watch (winning two of three). Yes, both Lora and Fenech were too much for him early in his career, and Patterson and Jacobs did a number on him. But I've got to give anybody credit who makes four title defenses on the road in Japan and three on the road in South Korea and comes out with his title each time. Remember, even at 40, he didn't exactly lay down against a young lion like Erik Morales, and he beat the bantamweight champ McCullough at 39. He certainly wasn't the greatest fighter, or even the great super bantamweight, but I think there are probably less deserving fighters in the HOF

[Autobarn]

I've see the 2nd Banke fight, and Zaragoza was battered in an absolute war. Hard to believe he came back and beat the guy. I think Zaragoza's first fight with Banke was somewhat controversia, wasn't it?

[bennie]

Great fighter who just never seemed to get old until Morales. He nutted Fenech a good one, I seem to recall, and his trilogy with Banke was riveting.

[giacomino]

I've see the 2nd Banke fight, and Zaragoza was battered in an absolute war. Hard to believe he came back and beat the guy. I think Zaragoza's first fight with Banke was somewhat controversia, wasn't it?

I remember all three Banke fights and the first one was a SD but I thought Zaragoza won. All three fights were in Inglewood, Banke's back yard. That was one of the amazing things about Zaragoza: he was a champion off and on for 12 years and never once defended at home in Mexico. How often do you see that today, with Japanese champions only fighting in Japan, U.S. fighters only fighting in the U.S., and German fighters fighting almost exclusively in Germany?

[Autobarn]

would he have beaten rival champs wilfredo vasquez / antonio cermeno, vuyani bungu, etc etc?

zaragoza seemed to get a lot of chances with the WBC, but could he have beaten the various holders of the other titles?

[giacomino]

would he have beaten rival champs wilfredo vasquez / antonio cermeno, vuyani bungu, etc etc?

zaragoza seemed to get a lot of chances with the WBC, but could he have beaten the various holders of the other titles?

Good question. Vasquez was a big puncher, Cermeno and Bungu were good boxers. Hard to say, but Zaragoza fought a lot of the division's best and had a mixed record. I don't see him, for instance, beating Kennedy McKinney or Barerra when they were champions at junior featherweight. Bungu beat McKinney the first time around and won a SD at home in South Africa the second time. But most of his time as champion was spent outboxing much weaker opposition than Zaragoza faced IMO. If I had to bet, I'd pick Bungu and Cermeno to outpoint Zaragoza and Zaragoza to outpoint Vasquez

[Counter-puncher]

If I had to bet, I'd pick Bungu and Cermeno to outpoint Zaragoza and Zaragoza to outpoint Vasquez

heh, i thought exactly the opposite

[Autobarn]

I don't quite see Zaragoza as a great. Inconsistent v good opponents, though there were some great fights. Dominated by opponents that were better than just good - Fenech and Miguel Lora.

Also, never considered even the best of the champions at 122, though his longevity and road warrior wins and exciting battles are impressive.

Anyone think Vasquez would have knocked him out?

[Autobarn]

Dude was tough as nails. He fought about 20 fights against champions or ex champions and won at least half of them. His wins over Tatsuyoshi late in his career were big because they were both on the road in Japan against a talented, incredibly popular local fight. His Banke fights were great fun to watch (winning two of three). Yes, both Lora and Fenech were too much for him early in his career, and Patterson and Jacobs did a number on him. But I've got to give anybody credit who makes four title defenses on the road in Japan and three on the road in South Korea and comes out with his title each time. Remember, even at 40, he didn't exactly lay down against a young lion like Erik Morales, and he beat the bantamweight champ McCullough at 39. He certainly wasn't the greatest fighter, or even the great super bantamweight, but I think there are probably less deserving fighters in the HOF

coming back to this thread i agree with you. i think i focused too much on DZ's bad nights (patterson x2).

zaragoza did not have the benefit of the safe matchmaking, the right names at the right time. as you say he fought all over the place, and had some great nights.

wins over duarte (deserved to hold a bantam title), tatsuyoshi (twice) are good 'uns. and who can begrudge the win over an old zarate, given all the young lions zaragoza faced?

it's almost arbitrary to fixate on "would he have beaten bungu, cermeno, X fighter, Y fighter". as i did. because if zaragoza couldn't lick 'em (patterson), he would outlast them (beating patterson conqueror, hector acero-sanchez, for instance).

DZ's last run as champ was excellent, the best form of his career: acero sanchez (W12), mccullough (W12, takes WM unbeaten record in near-masterclass), tatsuyoshi (x2). there won't ever be a super bantam holding the title at 39.

given his lack of power and natural talent, his vulnerability to bad cuts, it's amazing what he achieved. the guy had to have his wits about him all the time, in many tough 12 rounders. i like the way he applied his experience in banke 3 and mccullough fights, pushing his opponent back and digigng in when he sensed weakness, weathering the inevitable late storms with mix of defense and counter punching.

zaragoza definitely set the standard for israel vazquez, who had that great/gritty run in recent years, and i'd argue toshiaki nishioka, the current WBC king at 122, a fighter of great persistence and considerable savvy.