Archie Moore: The Fights That Never Were

[HomicideHenry]

While Moore was holding out on his 175 pound title [saying he wanted $100,000 first or no deal] he campaigned to fight current HW champion Ingemar Johansson. Unfortunately for him, Johansson was knocked out by Floyd Patterson, who defeated Archie. How would a Johansso/Moore fight have went, had it went on?

Also, after the Mike DiBiase debacle [Moore made $1,000 and only 800 people showed up to the event], Moore was hoping his manager Doc Kearns (they had a handshake agreement) would get him a fight with British champion Brian London. Unfortunately for Moore, Kearns died not long after the DiBiase fight, and it never came to be and Moore retired. How would Moore/London have went, had it went on?

[dempseyfire]

Moore by 1960 was well past his peak. He still showed the ability to knock out fringe contenders at HW in Rademacher and Lavorante but I see him losing by stoppage to a peak Johansson at that point in time. It would be like the Durell fight but Moore wouldn't survive past the 2nd.

London however was much slower and more crude skill-wise . . .I see even a past-it Moore taking Brian into deep water and drowning him.

[HomicideHenry]

London, I think would have lost on decision to Archie. Johansson, is a different story. Ingo's bingos would have been too much for Archie, and probably would have found himself kayoed in the 1st round like Eddie Machen.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

While Moore was holding out on his 175 pound title [saying he wanted $100,000 first or no deal] he campaigned to fight current HW champion Ingemar Johansson. Unfortunately for him, Johansson was knocked out by Floyd Patterson, who defeated Archie. How would a Johansso/Moore fight have went, had it went on?

Also, after the Mike DiBiase debacle [Moore made $1,000 and only 800 people showed up to the event], Moore was hoping his manager Doc Kearns (they had a handshake agreement) would get him a fight with British champion Brian London. Unfortunately for Moore, Kearns died not long after the DiBiase fight, and it never came to be and Moore retired. How would Moore/London have went, had it went on?

- You've mixed up two time frames here, 1959-60 when Ingo was the undefeated champ and 1963 when he beat London by decision and retired.

Arch would have a decent chance to upset undefeated Ingo circa 1960. By '63 things are uncertain and no longer matter with both fighters at their ends.

[harrygreb]

i think arch still had something left in 1960. its a tuff call against ingo. i can see this ending in a few different ways - an ingo KO win, a decision for moore, a late stoppage for archie...50/50 fight i reckon.

london is out of there by half way, though.

[Ox Baker]

LOL, Moore beating Ingo?!?!? I'd be shocked if he saw the end of the third round.

[BoxBuzz]

LOL, Moore beating Ingo?!?!? I'd be shocked if he saw the end of the third round.

Well now we know what Ox thinks. But I think Ingo might have made it into the third but not much further.

[Ox Baker]

By the late 1950s, Moore was already slowing down. Ezzard Charles had already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was the greatest light heavyweight of the era by dispatching with Moore three times and by beating much, much, much superior competition at that weight and of course above. Moore was only looking for paydays at the time, mostly at heavyweight. He refused to even get in the ring with dangerous fighters at 175 because - as I mentioned above - he was no Ezzard Charles.

This would be a quick loss for Moore, but he would at least get enough money to put an addition to his brick-walled mansion in San Diego, which has incidentally become a sex club.

[raylawpc]

I see Ingo winning inside five. Moore was too slow by 1959 and would have been troubled by counter-punching style. Ingo would have eventually gotten Thor's Hammer over and that would have been it.

I don't care about Moore v. London.

[harrygreb]

are you perhaps over estimating the GREAT ingemar johnanssen? i have recently read that fernando vargas was a boxing GREAT!!

[raylawpc]

are you perhaps over estimating the GREAT ingemar johnanssen?

No, don't think so.

In 1959/60, Ingo was in his prime. Moore was an old man, and starting to slow down. Ingo was a counter-puncher who would have made Moore lead. By that time in his career, Moore lacked the speed to catch Ingo. He would have found himself troubled by Ingo's jab which, while not pretty, was very effective. (The jab set up Patterson.) Eventually, Ingo would have gotten over the right, which I think would have happened before the end of the 5th round.

Even in his prime, Moore was most effective against guys who pressed him. Not as great against guys who boxed him. Ingo would have boxed him.

So, no, I don't think so.

(This takes nothing away from Moore's greatness. We are - after all - talking about the 1959/60 version of Archie Moore, not the 1955 Moore who battled the great Rocky Marciano for nine rounds.)

[harrygreb]

archie moore suckered into the big right hand of ingo? hhmmmm

[raylawpc]

archie moore suckered into the big right hand of ingo? hhmmmm

Define "suckered." If you mean that Ingo, a natural counter-puncher, is able to make Moore lead, miss, and counter Moore's leads . . . yes.

[harrygreb]

all this presupposes that moore has no other game plan than coming in at johannsen. for me, even the old, slow archie was smarter than that. in fact the old mongoose was a wily, clever fighter to the end. of course ingo was as smart a boxer that ever got in the ring, so maybe moore would have met his match in that department too

[raylawpc]

all this presupposes that moore has no other game plan than coming in at johannsen. for me, even the old, slow archie was smarter than that. in fact the old mongoose was a wily, clever fighter to the end. of course ingo was as smart a boxer that ever got in the ring, so maybe moore would have met his match in that department too

Well, just two years later, Moore's game plan was to plod after a young fellow named Cassius Clay while Clay punched Moore's head like a speed bag.

So tell me - what specific strategies will the 45-year-old (plus?) Mongoose use against the younger, taller, stronger, confident, prime Ingo. Specific strategies please - not adjectives like "willy" and "clever."

[harrygreb]

i never mentioned archie's willy - maybe you know more about moore than you're letting on.

its no surprise that he had to plod after clay - EVERYONE plodded after clay and many had their heads punched while they plodded.

are you telling me that moore was one of boxings "no plan B" campaigners? i can just hear the conversation in his corner against ingo "ok arch, the guy is a cute counter puncher so lets carry on running after him so he boxes your ears off. watch out for the big right hand, though, as you come in"

ray, i love ya but you're crazy

[raylawpc]

i never mentioned archie's willy - maybe you know more about moore than you're letting on.

its no surprise that he had to plod after clay - EVERYONE plodded after clay and many had their heads punched while they plodded.

are you telling me that moore was one of boxings "no plan B" campaigners? i can just hear the conversation in his corner against ingo "ok arch, the guy is a cute counter puncher so lets carry on running after him so he boxes your ears off. watch out for the big right hand, though, as you come in"

ray, i love ya but you're crazy

Still waiting for you to say how Moore's gonna beat Ingo in 1960. I've got a feeling I'll be waiting for a long time . . .

[elmersalsa]

Ingemar Johansson wins...Too big and too fast for a 43 or 46 year old legend in Archie Moore....And he also hit harder. This is a wrong matchup for the great Old Mongoose.

[harrygreb]

i didnt say he'd beat ingo i said i thought it was a tuff call (check my posts). of course if moore is daft enough to follow him around the ring he'd lose. but he doesnt, he stays mid ring and waits for ingo to lead. if he has any speed left it is archie who racks up the points and avoids the heavy right handers. its a biggish IF considering his age and ingo is handsome favourite but i dont rate the swede very highly in the brain department which is where i rate moore handily. archie was not spent in 1960 just in decline.
you didnt have to wait that long, ray.

[raylawpc]

i didnt say he'd beat ingo i said i thought it was a tuff call (check my posts). of course if moore is daft enough to follow him around the ring he'd lose. but he doesnt, he stays mid ring and waits for ingo to lead. if he has any speed left it is archie who racks up the points and avoids the heavy right handers. its a biggish IF considering his age and ingo is handsome favourite but i dont rate the swede very highly in the brain department which is where i rate moore handily. archie was not spent in 1960 just in decline.
you didnt have to wait that long, ray.

Here's the problem with your analysis: You say that Archie "waits for Ingo to lead." If there was one positive thing somebody could say about Ingo (aside from mentioning his great right hand), it was that he understood what he was, and where he was most successful - as a counterpuncher. Even in his amateur days, he was willing to risk disqualification rather than fight the other guy's fight. You can criticize Ingo's "brains" all you want, but Ingo was no Jerry Quarry when it came to sticking with the plan.

If Archie is going to wait and try to force Ingo to become aggressive and press him - Archie's going to be waiting a long, long time. In the meantime, Ingo is going keep circling and throwing in that pesky jab, waiting for Archie to try something, looking for an opening, and then countering with the Hammer. I think he'll do it within five.

A guy like Ingo - who is going to make Moore come to him and who is bigger, stronger, and quicker than Moore and (dare I say it) hits harder than Moore at that point - is about the worst opponent Moore could have faced in 1959/1960.

That said, I suspect Ingo would have found an entirely different proposition in the Archie Moore who fought Marciano or Maxim.

[harrygreb]

a perfect reply, ray. no animosity, no sour stuff, just your view of the imaginary fight. i go along with much of it but credit moore with a little something in the tank. (and if anyone in boxing had plenty of time it was archie moore)

[raylawpc]

a perfect reply, ray. no animosity, no sour stuff, just your view of the imaginary fight. i go along with much of it but credit moore with a little something in the tank. (and if anyone in boxing had plenty of time it was archie moore)

Why would I have any animosity towards you or anybody else on this board? It's only boxing . . . which really doesn't matter very much in the total scheme of things.

[p4p1]

a perfect reply, ray. no animosity, no sour stuff, just your view of the imaginary fight. i go along with much of it but credit moore with a little something in the tank. (and if anyone in boxing had plenty of time it was archie moore)

Why would I have any animosity towards you or anybody else on this board? It's only boxing . . . which really doesn't matter very much in the total scheme of things.

especially when your talking about fights that never happened

[harrygreb]

exactly, but i have witnessed some pretty ludicrous rows on here. so, its good to argue it out with reasoned debate and intelligence. thanks

[HomicideHenry]

To beat Ingo, imo, you got to be first, you cant let him set the tempo. All it takes is one solid hit from Johansson and you're out of there. Machen, Cooper, Patterson all can attribute to this. They underestimated him, and let him come to them. If you're to beat him, you have to be first, and be first often.