Would you have picked Clay?

hoodsyeahright · Post by **hoodsyeahright** » 17 Jun 2009, 23:50

My old man swears that in 1964, he picked Cassius Clay to upset Sonny Liston. That being so, I think that was a minority opinion at the time.

How would you have seen it at the time? If you are old enough, what was your opinion at that time?

Gotta admit I would have picked Liston. Clay had barely squeaked past Doug Jones and Henry Cooper in his previous 2 fights. But styles make fights and upsets I guess.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 18 Jun 2009, 02:33

Watching each mans' previous three or four fights, you'd have to be either...

A) A fool

or

B) Awful game

to select Clay. He had a style advantage, but not the form, experience, or class to pull it off, most likely. Of course, upsets happen, & no one knows how legit the fight was, anyway (Heckle all you want Alp, Collins & co, I'm still not entirely satisfied --- though I do think it's fair to give Clay the benefit of the doubt).

I think most backing Clay would've been fools who got lucky, with only a few knowing of what they spoke.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 18 Jun 2009, 03:49

granberry said the fix was in and he has never been wrong has he, GI?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 18 Jun 2009, 04:05

What nobody knew back then washow durable Ali was. Against Jones and Cooper he looked beatable. After Liston he looked untouchable. Few would have seen the potential but I guess some people must have.

yancey · Post by **yancey** » 18 Jun 2009, 23:30

I was eleven years old when this fight happened and I remember clear as a bell how some of the kids at school were talking the day of the fight about how Ali was going to get creamed that night.

Liston was thought to be just about invincible, coming off the two devastations of Patterson. I remember listening to the fight that night on the radio (Marciano was one of the commentators) and being surprised when the fight dragged on into the 3rd and 4th rounds. I was amazed when the announcer said the fight was over and Ali had won.

Marciano seemed disappointed and dumbfounded that Liston quit on his stool.

The general concensus at class the next day was that the fight was fixed. Liston was a 7-1 favorite, as I recall.

In looking at the films of that fight, I think it was a legitimate fight. I do think that Sonny had been spooked by Ali's behavior at the weigh-in.

I think the Lewiston fight was a total fraud.

raylawpc · Post by **raylawpc** » 18 Jun 2009, 23:38

I was nine-years-old when Clay beat Liston. I don't recall me or my friends even being aware of the fight before it happened. We talked about it the next day, but I suspect we were just regurgitating what each of us heard our father's say that morning at the breakfast table.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Jun 2009, 00:34

Collins2000 wrote:granberry said the fix was in and he has never been wrong has he, GI?

Not exactly what I was looking for to wash away the very real circumstances of the day.

All I've ever said about this fight is the chance it wasn't on the level is real, & possible. If you & the boys think it so obscene as to hunt down anyone who says as much, perhaps we're not the ones with the blinkers on.

It is not appalling to suggest this fight has a real shot at being a set-up -- stop trying to make people feel ashamed for even thinking as much.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 03:42

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:granberry said the fix was in and he has never been wrong has he, GI?

Not exactly what I was looking for to wash away the very real circumstances of the day.

All I've ever said about this fight is the chance it wasn't on the level is real, & possible. If you & the boys think it so obscene as to hunt down anyone who says as much, perhaps we're not the ones with the blinkers on.

It is not appalling to suggest this fight has a real shot at being a set-up -- stop trying to make people feel ashamed for even thinking as much.

We're not the ones blah blah blah. Stop trying blah blah blah.

What does that mean, GI?

I have watched the fight with an open mind and what I saw was a good fight where the younger and, on the day, better man eventually got on top and the older man decided he'd had enough. It's not unusual in boxing.

What did you see? Don't be coy, and PLEASE don't start crying again about how I am picking on you.

Are we now to suspect a fix every fight where the young up and comer beats the older man? Or is it only When Ali is involved?

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 19 Jun 2009, 10:15

Just look at that colour photo of Sonny Liston sat on his stool after 6 rounds. His face is a mess & he looks an absolutely beaten man.

Or maybe it was doctored by Ali's Muslim goons in a secret laboratory on Mars?

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:04

"We're not the ones blah blah blah. Stop trying blah blah blah.

What does that mean, GI?

I have watched the fight with an open mind and what I saw was a good fight where the younger and, on the day, better man eventually got on top and the older man decided he'd had enough. It's not unusual in boxing.

What did you see? Don't be coy, and PLEASE don't start crying again about how I am picking on you.

Are we now to suspect a fix every fight where the young up and comer beats the older man? Or is it only When Ali is involved?" - Collins

I have zero problem with your analysis. I have a problem with your weak inference there is no way this fight could possibly be fixed. Talk about slamming your hands to your ears & blah-blah-blahing.

It's possible. It's plausible. Get over it, & wipe the stars from your eyes whenever someone mentions that little three-letter name.

John Galt · Post by **John Galt** » 19 Jun 2009, 12:42

Is this a video of "open minded" Collins?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoHHZCRUc8

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:43

John Galt wrote:Is this a video of "open minded" Collins?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoHHZCRUc8

What has that to do with the first fight between Ali & Liston, Dave?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 14:50

Goodnight, Irene wrote: I have zero problem with your analysis. I have a problem with your weak inference there is no way this fight could possibly be fixed. Talk about slamming your hands to your ears & blah-blah-blahing.

It's possible. It's plausible. Get over it, & wipe the stars from your eyes whenever someone mentions that little three-letter name.

It's plausible?

Based on what?

Try to answer the question this time. If you can't, post a youtube video like Dave did about something totally unrelated. Just to confirm you are on his level.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Jun 2009, 15:30

I want little part in the argument other than to say an unknown quantity became a known quantity later on. So at this point who's surprised? Well except for granny and co.

However to be to the point of this thread, my older brother, my guitar teacher, and I were absolutely pulling for Ali and hoping this guy was as good as he was brash and it was a quintessential moment for me and those close to me as we watched Sonny on closed circuit TV decide that he did not have it in him to go on.

Keep in mind that we all liked Patterson and were hoping for Ali to avenge what Liston did to another fighter we really liked. Not to mention that we paid the price of admission to those two Patterson fights and Liston ended them so fast as to make us feel we did not get our money's worth. So we held it against him. Not that we hated Liston but we were leaning toward someone who could give us longer fights. And we found somebody! Though we did have to wait past the rematch to discover that.

Funny how later on when Tyson came along I was happy to watch the one round destructions that he produced...this time without complaint. Probably because I did not have to save my money for a month to watch.....The old closed circuit prices were so high....and I wasn't making much money in the early sixties, so when I went to the theatre I wanted to watch something that took more than a minute, before being asked to leave after traveling across town to witness it.

John Galt · Post by **John Galt** » 19 Jun 2009, 15:45

Collins2000 wrote:
John Galt wrote:Is this a video of "open minded" Collins?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoHHZCRUc8
What has that to do with the first fight between Ali & Liston, Dave?

Nothing, just like 99% of your posts have nothing to do with boxing...

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 15:58

John Galt wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:
John Galt wrote:Is this a video of "open minded" Collins?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoHHZCRUc8
What has that to do with the first fight between Ali & Liston, Dave?

Nothing, just like 99% of your posts have nothing to do with boxing...

DaveV, post a link to some of these ones in this forum that I have made that don't relate to boxing.

It should be easy given the figure you quote.

If you can't, why not just fekk off? We already have more than our fair share of liars in here so one less would be a plus.

John Galt · Post by **John Galt** » 19 Jun 2009, 16:34

Collins2000 wrote:granberry said the fix was in and he has never been wrong has he, GI?

Collins2000 wrote:DaveV, post a link to some of these ones in this forum that I have made that don't relate to boxing.

It should be easy given the figure you quote.

That was easy enough. Just don't ask me to find one where you post about boxing. That 1% credit I gave you was probably too high.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 16:44

John Galt wrote:
Collins2000 wrote:granberry said the fix was in and he has never been wrong has he, GI?

Collins2000 wrote:DaveV, post a link to some of these ones in this forum that I have made that don't relate to boxing.

It should be easy given the figure you quote.

That was easy enough. Just don't ask me to find one where you post about boxing. That 1% credit I gave you was probably too high.

Er, helloooooo. The 1st one is about boxing, Dave.

The 2nd one was a personal one to an old chum.

So that's 1 so far. Given that I have made a couple of thousand posts in here. that's not a high percentage yet is it, Dave?

Does this one count as boxing?

John Galt · Post by **John Galt** » 19 Jun 2009, 16:54

Collins, that post was about Gran. I think I did read a post you made about boxing once and if I find it, in the interest of fairness, I'll post it.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 17:03

John Galt wrote:Collins, that post was about Gran. I think I did read a post you made about boxing once and if I find it, in the interest of fairness, I'll post it.

It was about Ali - Liston (1) as well as a dig at that clown GI via that other clown granberry, Davey. I like to get in as much as I can per post, mate. My time is valuable you know. I can't be in here 24/7; I have to save some time for trawling through Youtube looking for daft videos to post in here.

Anyway, that post I allegedly made about boxing might have been in that thread where real fans put up photos of real fighters and other real fans had to name them. You remember that thread? It was the one you, BRR and GI failed to get a single one right.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:25

I have to reluctantly concede Dave is right about one thing --- if you had half the time for boxing you had for obsessively stalking HomicideHenry & a few others around here, Collins, perhaps multiple posters wouldn't make the point you hardly post on Boxing.

I've yet to see anything more than generic takes from you anyway, but, as I said, perhaps if you spent less time chasing your favourite targets & aimed up, we'd get less smug bulls!t like "

" & tiring one-liners, & more boxing acumen?

Ah...who am I kidding? Liston wasn't a man hiding a potential rape charge at the time he fought Clay. He hadn't just blown through the best Heavyweight in the world --- twice --- in two collective rounds. Clay hadn't just required illegal rescuing from the comparatively meagre Henry Cooper, or fought only nineteen times professionally. He wasn't a skinny, awkward kid we all saw on film one fight previous to winning the title. Liston didn't have any enemies --- nor Clay any friends --- who could possibly have influenced Boxing outcomes at that time. It wasn't heard of in this sport, anyway.

I guess Elton isn't the only one inhabiting a strange little world. Now, run along & throw down your mat, mate --- it's time to start praying with the rest of the flock.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:31

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I have to reluctantly concede Dave is right about one thing --- if you had half the time for boxing you had for obsessively stalking HomicideHenry & a few others around here, Collins, perhaps multiple posters wouldn't make the point you hardly post on Boxing.

Why only reluctantly? Don't you want to be associated with DaveV? He trains fighters you know!

I guess two (you and my man DaveV) counts as "multiple posters". Actually, DaveV has two accounts so perhaps we can say 3 people think I hardly post on boxing.

Now go and give us some answers on those trivia questions.

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:36

Thing is, Collins, you've never espoused to having a problem with me on anything --- point in fact, we usually agree --- sans the subject of Ali, & it's more than enough, it seems, to turn you bitterly against anything GI.

That says more about your fandom than my supposed hatred (the same hatred, it seems, which sees me rank Ali as the best Heavyweight of all-time, accomplishments-wise). Kind of hurts your theory, that, doesn't it?

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:42

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Thing is, Collins, you've never espoused to having a problem with me on anything --- point in fact, we usually agree --- sans the subject of Ali, & it's more than enough, it seems, to turn you bitterly against anything GI.

That says more about your fandom than my supposed hatred (the same hatred, it seems, which sees me rank Ali as the best Heavyweight of all-time, accomplishments-wise). Kind of hurts your theory, that, doesn't it?

Do I sense the onset of tears?

Anyway, let me clarify for you.

My considered opinion is that you are one of the least knowledgable posters in here. You aren't quite down there with Elton John and DaveV. You are in the BRR category where you think you know everything but in reality your knowledge of the fight game is shallow.

But, like the other clowns in here, you do have a use. And that is to dance and sing for our entertainment.

So, let the dancing commence!

Goodnight, Irene · Post by **Goodnight, Irene** » 19 Jun 2009, 18:49

Your, "considered opinion?"

When said opinion stretches beyond hunting down HomicideHenry or making it your life's work to play head-games with lesser fools such as DaveV & BRR, it'll start to carry weight with me. I've never seen you write anything negative of Ali, but I don't announce to the forum, "what a pathetic lover, etc. Collins is of Ali, unprovoked."

In any case, you've proven a consistent inability to understand (or bother to properly read, in any case) my takes. What is this tears business? You still haven't explained that bizarre rant you're on in regards to me, "crying like a baby" everytime you post.

No need. I only need look to the left of my screen & see the, "

" emoticon to see the meat of your next post.

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