Our 'Enry Vs Muhammad Ali - the myth

[Chambers2]

I was watching a programme on the ESPN Classics channel (442 on Sky) called 'Ringside Special- Muhammad Ali' and it showed the final 2 rounds (4 and 5) of Our 'Enry Vs Ali I. As the majority of us will know 'Enry flattened Ali with a cracking left hook at the end of the fourth. Ali landed on the canvas with his back against the ropes, the bell went to end the round whilst the count was commencing and Ali got back to his feet (well within the 10 count) and walked back to his corner abit shakily.........

(Myth)
...now I was lead to believe by boxing forums (and whoever else) that at the break between rounds 4 and 5 Angelo Dundee ripped Alis glove and there was a delay whilst the gloves got replaced/fixed allowing Ali time to recover. I even seem to recall 'Enry himself saying in a recent interview that it still pissed him off that this was allowed to happen and that it had robbed him of his BIG chance......

(Fact)
...but on this 'Ringside Special- Muhammad Ali' show I'm watching it shows all of the break between the rounds, there looked to be a minor issue with Alis glove that Dundee sorted pretty much straight away and there wasn't a notable delay at all and if there was a hold up it was only for a matter of 10 seconds maximum.


Ali then came out in the 5th round all fired up and boxed 'Enry ears off stopping him with a cut in the same round after landing some brutal shots. Ali had been predicting all week that he'd stop Our 'Enry in the 5th and some people suggested that Ali had eased off him early on to aide his prediction.


Any comments?
Any other commonly believed boxing myths that you can expose?

[Mensa07]

does seem a bit of a reach to say without the extra seconds Enry 'would' have won. If he'd landed that shot a minute earlier he would have tho, Ali didn't have a f*ing clue where he was!

[Horse]

Hasn't this thread already been done a few times?

[Mensa07]

not this one no, there might have been similar threads at some point in history but this one is definitely new.

I'd like to know the definitive answer to Ali/Liston II. Sonny looks awful just rolling round on the canvas but then he does actually get up to fight, before JJW then steps in. Why get up if the fix is in? If the fix was in, who's fix was it? Someone must know?

[stujones]

IMO Liston was caught be a beautiful timed punch. No fix IMO

As for Ali vs Cooper, I have a different question... does anyone know the score cards at the time of the stoppage (both fights). Cooper believes he won more rounds than lost against Ali.

[Horse]

not this one no, there might have been similar threads at some point in history but this one is definitely new.

Pedant.

[hitman_hatton1]

i remember a boxing news article saying it was only a 6 second delay.

cooper loves trotting it out though doesn't he.

[Carbo]

not this one no, there might have been similar threads at some point in history but this one is definitely new.

Jeez, we did this about three seconds ago on another thread and that one covered more angles than a Steve Davis safety shot.

And yes, we all agreed that Henry's efforts were overrated and that Henry talks as of Ali was knocked out for a month and only Angelo Dundee's nefarious genius to get a decade of extra time for Ali to recover robbed him of the win.

So, well done for your ingenious and ground breaking analysis, but can we all not let it go?

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

not this one no, there might have been similar threads at some point in history but this one is definitely new.

I'd like to know the definitive answer to Ali/Liston II. Sonny looks awful just rolling round on the canvas but then he does actually get up to fight, before JJW then steps in. Why get up if the fix is in? If the fix was in, who's fix was it? Someone must know?

Ali stood over Liston for 15seconds and Liston was waiting for Ali to get to his neutral corner, the count shouldnt start until Liston gets to the corner. Then Liston got up to continue and Walcott was told Liston had been down for over 10seconds and he promptly stopped it.

[Chambers2]

not this one no, there might have been similar threads at some point in history but this one is definitely new.

Jeez, we did this about three seconds ago on another thread and that one covered more angles than a Steve Davis safety shot.

And yes, we all agreed that Henry's efforts were overrated and that Henry talks as of Ali was knocked out for a month and only Angelo Dundee's nefarious genius to get a decade of extra time for Ali to recover robbed him of the win.

So, well done for your ingenious and ground breaking analysis, but can we all not let it go?

Sorry I hadn't read the other thread

[Mensa07]

Ali runs off round the ring rather than standing over him, the count is over ten yeah but its just that little roll-over Sonny does when he gets to one knee that makes it all look a bit suspect.

anyway clearly this thread is upsetting a few people so maybe we should end it here eh!

[TerribleTerry]

Ali runs off round the ring rather than standing over him, the count is over ten yeah but its just that little roll-over Sonny does when he gets to one knee that makes it all look a bit suspect.

anyway clearly this thread is upsetting a few people so maybe we should end it here eh!

Nat Fleischer was ringside and screamed at Walcott that Liston was down for longer then ten seconds.

The inexperienced ref panicked and waved the contest off despite the fact that the two men had resumed fighting.

I see no fix, just a hellaciously fast 'anchor punch', as Ali referred to it..

[SteveO]

As for Ali vs Cooper, I have a different question... does anyone know the score cards at the time of the stoppage (both fights). Cooper believes he won more rounds than lost against Ali.

There were no scorecards because there were no ringside judges for this fight. Referee Tommy Little was the sole judge. He obviously kept a round by round tally but I have no idea who he thought was in front at the time of the stoppage.

[stujones]

Well Cooper has said, on a few occasions - for the 11 rounds we fought I won more of them.

[DavidPayne]

Henry Cooper bores me to death.

Perhaps its how the media report him.

I'm sure he's a jovial old pug in reality.

But he sounds SO bitter and deluded when he's quoted.

I just wish Bugner had rematched him and beat the grannie out of him, I think it would have done both a lot of good.

[TerribleTerry]

I just wish Bugner had rematched him and beat the grannie out of him, I think it would have done both a lot of good.

Didnt Cooper quit the sport due to his disgust at the decision in their fight?

[Poncey]

I just wish Bugner had rematched him and beat the grannie out of him, I think it would have done both a lot of good.

Didnt Cooper quit the sport due to his disgust at the decision in their fight?

They need to knight the ref then.

[thaibox uk]

Henry Cooper bores me to death.

Perhaps its how the media report him.

I'm sure he's a jovial old pug in reality.

But he sounds SO bitter and deluded when he's quoted.

I just wish Bugner had rematched him and beat the grannie out of him, I think it would have done both a lot of good.

same here sick of hearing it his books are as bad

[SteveO]

Trouble is he's said it so often now that he really believes it!

[Horse]

Cooper exaggerates a story, so what?

[WildWaylon]

Henry Cooper bores me to death.

Perhaps its how the media report him.

I'm sure he's a jovial old pug in reality.

But he sounds SO bitter and deluded when he's quoted.

I just wish Bugner had rematched him and beat the grannie out of him, I think it would have done both a lot of good.

Cooper was a proud man then, and he is now. He had the Nation behind him that night and he and many others believed he was robbed. He was well liked and respected in his day and its only in recent years young people have been saying bad things about him. Jovial old pug is a bit disrespectful.

[harrygreb]

ahh leave cooper alone - what you have all overlooked is that ANGELO DUNDEE is most to blame for the glove myth. Angie has been heard 1000's of times telling the world how his quick thinking kept ali in the fight. cooper would have beaten ali if - as has been said earlier - heeda landed the punch a minute before he actually did. fact.

[DavidPayne]

Henry Cooper bores me to death.

Perhaps its how the media report him.

I'm sure he's a jovial old pug in reality.

But he sounds SO bitter and deluded when he's quoted.

I just wish Bugner had rematched him and beat the grannie out of him, I think it would have done both a lot of good.

Cooper was a proud man then, and he is now. He had the Nation behind him that night and he and many others believed he was robbed. He was well liked and respected in his day and its only in recent years young people have been saying bad things about him. Jovial old pug is a bit disrespectful.

WildW,

I'm not doubting he's proud and I'm not questionning his achievements nor am I doubting he felt he won that fight, though I think a lot of the clamour for a Cooper victory was loaded with the goodwill and gratitude he thought he deserved, i.e. it was a close fight and as retiring old champ he thought he should have got the benefit of the doubt.

But while conceding the pug reference was a little demeaning you'll have to grant me the latitude to be bored with his 'I was robbed" schtick, because he wasn't and he wasn't. He was unlucky versus Clay, but he wasn't robbed.

[Scrap]

You could say, He got Lucky against Clay

[Ketchel]

I've seen the fight with Bugner and it was very close, not a robbery but it could have went either way.

Regarding the Ali fight, the extra time Ali got was about 3-6 secs and this clear in the recording. I think the reason Dundee played up the split glove incident was to divert attention away from the fact that a bottle of smelling salts was promptly stuck under Clay/Ali's nose as soon as he got back to the corner after the knockdown. This also is shown clearly in the recording. While smelling salts may have been commonly used in the States(watch Ali V Archie Moore as Moore is seen standing in his corner with a cornerman holding a bottle to his nose) I am not sure if it was legal to use them in British rings. I am surprised that this is not mentioned whenever this subject comes up. If it was illegal then Dundee cheated Cooper out of a potential win.

As far as Cooper the fighter is concerned he knew his limitations and always gave 100% in the ring win, lose or draw. 3 Lonsdale belts outright, Commonwealth, European champ & world title challenger to possibly the greatest Heavyweight in history. Give the man a break I say he's earned the respect he's due.