Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Dongee]

Rog:

What is the feeling in Spain about all those geats from other times? Does anyone ever mention Greco, Triana, Amaya, etc. I was close to the Trio Pompa when they were popular in L.A. as we were also neighbors near Adams and Maple aves. They were two sisters, Minerva and Armandina, and a brother, Ramiro and they were quite good.At the peak of their careers, Minerva died suddenly and WW II sidelined Ramiro, who was a tail gunner wounded in action and forced to quit dancing. He eventually married my cousin, Dora.

Memories.....Armandina (Armi) was my favorit

hap navarro

[dagosd2000]

La Triana. The Gypsy Quarter of Seville.



Amanda when she was 9 years old dancing with all the men in the Casa De Anselma. La Triana. Seville,Spain 3 o'clock in the morning

[raylawpc]

Rog:

I did not score the fight but in truth Clottey's style will always serve him well in a close fight. The guy takes a flurry of shots and appears to be losing, but he suddenly lashes out, fighting back with both hands and that adds up in the judge's mind.

And Rog: My lousy eyesight betrays me a lot......but wasn't that a one-two combination that dropped the fellow in that clip you told us about?

Aside to friend Tom:

What was Jim Jeffries' last fight, against whom, and where? Of course, it is a trick question.

hap navarro

Hmmm . . . let's see. According to the New York Times, January 6, 1951, p. 13, Jeff sued a couple of fellows named Richard Parker and Todd Faulkner (aka "Kid Mexico") for slander when they claimed he was their partner in a gambling operation they ran at Jeffries's Barn. (The pair were running some kind of gambling operation and, when arrested, claimed Jeff was their partner. Jeff said that he believed they were operating a bingo-like game out of the Barn.

That's the only thing I can think of.

[dagosd2000]

Rog:

What is the feeling in Spain about all those geats from other times? Does anyone ever mention Greco, Triana, Amaya, etc. I was close to the Trio Pompa when they were popular in L.A. as we were also neighbors near Adams and Maple aves. They were two sisters, Minerva and Armandina, and a brother, Ramiro and they were quite good.At the peak of their careers, Minerva died suddenly and WW II sidelined Ramiro, who was a tail gunner wounded in action and forced to quit dancing. He eventually married my cousin, Dora.

Memories.....Armandina (Armi) was my favorit

hap navarro

Hap
From what has been told to me over there,Flamenco has made a tremendous ressurgence. The memories of Greco,Amaya,Ramiro and Minerva,Talega,Farrucca ARE ALIVE!! . OLE!!

[Dongee]

Tom:

When you publish you may use this tidbit, courtesy of the oldest guy on this Forum;

Jim Jeffries and old time heavy Capt. Bob Rioer tangled outside an L.A. courthouse after their case had been heard. It seems Roper and Jeff were involved in litigation stemming from Bob's training of a Jeffries prospect. I have the story written somewhere, but all my stuff is warehoused in San Diego. Roper threw the first punch, Jeffries got in the last one. Just a scuffle, nobody really hurt. Check it out sometime.

hap navarro

[Rick Farris]

Worth another look. Hap Navarro

And a few more . . .

I think centered among some of the greats he was a part of, at the WBHOF Art exhibit.
Enrique Bolanos, Art Aragon, Manuel Ortiz, Fabela Chavez, Jackie McCoy, Parnassus, Cal Working, and so many more. The best of L.A. Boxing history.
They live among us on the thread thru Hap.
What a great education, and a lot of fun!


-Rick Farris

[Expug]

Pardon the interruption:

But did you fellas catch that rare moment in the Cotto vs Clottey fight where Miguel floors Joshua with a left jab to the face? I have not seen that happen in about 50 years. In pro boxing that is rarer than a body shot knockout, IMO.

hap navarro

Good point, Hap. I can't remember seeing an experienced boxer hit the deck from a jab, unless he was off balance.
However, I remember watching Sonny Liston at the Main Street Gym in the late 60's.
Watching the way Liston's jab would "jolt" the hired help made me realize that a jab can be a far greater weapon that many suspect.


-Rick Farris

Sonnys jab could really bust a guy up too.
Chuck Wepner (who often started bleeding during the National Anthem), looked like he came in second place to a hatchet after they fought.
Its what he said after though. Something about Sonnys jab being like a light bulb shoved in his face and smashed.

[raylawpc]

Tom:

When you publish you may use this tidbit, courtesy of the oldest guy on this Forum;

Jim Jeffries and old time heavy Capt. Bob Rioer tangled outside an L.A. courthouse after their case had been heard. It seems Roper and Jeff were involved in litigation stemming from Bob's training of a Jeffries prospect. I have the story written somewhere, but all my stuff is warehoused in San Diego. Roper threw the first punch, Jeffries got in the last one. Just a scuffle, nobody really hurt. Check it out sometime.

hap navarro

That would have been around 1925 or 1930, wouldn't it, Hap? Please send me the story sometime. I'd enjoy reading it.

[Rick Farris]

Pardon the interruption:

But did you fellas catch that rare moment in the Cotto vs Clottey fight where Miguel floors Joshua with a left jab to the face? I have not seen that happen in about 50 years. In pro boxing that is rarer than a body shot knockout, IMO.

hap navarro

Good point, Hap. I can't remember seeing an experienced boxer hit the deck from a jab, unless he was off balance.
However, I remember watching Sonny Liston at the Main Street Gym in the late 60's.
Watching the way Liston's jab would "jolt" the hired help made me realize that a jab can be a far greater weapon that many suspect.


-Rick Farris

Sonnys jab could really bust a guy up too.
Chuck Wepner (who often started bleeding during the National Anthem), looked like he came in second place to a hatchet after they fought.
Its what he said after though. Something about Sonnys jab being like a light bulb shoved in his face and smashed.

A real jab . . .

The jab is a great weapon, was the best for me, which brings to mind Danny Lopez's jab.
I worked more with Danny than probably any other boxer when it comes to sparring. Between 1969-75.
Danny had a short, jolting jab that you didn't want to let hit your face. Danny pushed it right thru the target, like Joe Louis.
Everything Danny touched you with could be a problem, and that goes for his jab.
I knew Danny hit hard and I felt the power, but he never really hurt me to the point where I was in trouble.
At some time or another, we both hurt each other. Danny would hit you, but he could be hit, and I hit him often.
If he ever rang my bell, well, I don't remember it, and that's something you don't forget.

But I do remember this. One day we're boxing at the Main St. Gym. We were both pros at the time, early in his career.
Danny's catches me with a jab to my chest, right above the solar plexus, on the bone.
I feel it, but it's too high to effect my breathing, no big deal. It kinda felt like I'd been poked by a thick broomstick in the chest.
The next morning I wake up an feel a sharp pain in my chest and can see it's bruised.
That was from a Danny Lopez jab to the chest, wearing 14oz. Casanova training gloves.

I have a lot of left jab memories. Good subject.


-Rick Farris

[Expug]

Great stuff Rick. Thanks for posting that.
I used to love watching Danny fight. Hes one of my all-time favorites. He had a great right hand , but Im sure he had to have set up alot of his kayoes with that jab.
I have alot of respect for you as a person Rick.
I also respect the toughness you have to be able to hang in there and bang with Danny Lopez.

[Rick Farris]

"An Educated Left Hand . . ."

OK, this one is aimed at Randy.
This was a term used my our old pal, Mel Epstein.

Do you remember Mel discussing Dave Shade and Jock Malone?
"Dave Shade had an 'educated left hand'' and could . . ."
And then Mel would demonstrate a move right in front of you.

You'd be standing relaxed, and he'd put up his hands, feint-shift, dip and some how slip the knuckles of his boney little fist between your ribs.
He'd then have a big smile on his face, enjoying your unexpected discomfort. I think it was one of those "old man-young man" things

Mike Nixon was so pissed when Mel slipped his shot in, he unloaded a left hook in the direction of Mel's head.
This is a true story. Old Mel expected the return and slipped out of the way. Nixon missed by a mile.
And you can bet that Mel had that smile on his face.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

Great stuff Rick. Thanks for posting that.
I used to love watching Danny fight. Hes one of my all-time favorites. He had a great right hand , but Im sure he had to have set up alot of his kayoes with that jab.
I have alot of respect for you as a person Rick.
I also respect the toughness you have to be able to hang in there and bang with Danny Lopez.

Brian . . . Danny Lopez is one of my all-time favorite memories. He and I were friends, and when we saw each other again for the first time in decades, it was a nice experience. He knew my first wife, and her family. The WBHOF has brought some special people back into my life. Danny is one of them. This thread has brought a few special people into my life, and you are one of them. I value our friendship. And the respect is mutual, Pug.


-Rick Farris

[Randyman]

"An Educated Left Hand . . ."

OK, this one is aimed at Randy.
This was a term used my our old pal, Mel Epstein.

Do you remember Mel discussing Dave Shade and Jock Malone?
"Dave Shade had an 'educated left hand'' and could . . ."
And then Mel would demonstrate a move right in front of you.

You'd be standing relaxed, and he'd put up his hands, feint-shift, dip and some how slip the knuckles of his boney little fist between your ribs.
He'd then have a big smile on his face, enjoying your unexpected discomfort. I think it was one of those "old man-young man" things

Mike Nixon was so pissed when Mel slipped his shot in, he unloaded a left hook in the direction of Mel's head.
This is a true story. Old Mel expected the return and slipped out of the way. Nixon missed by a mile.
And you can bet that Mel had that smile on his face.


-Rick Farris

Rick, I can't remember the names but yes, Mel was a stickler for "Educated left hand". If you remember, his jab was a little different than most jabs. The hand was extended a lot further out and the fist was parallel to the floor. Once it was learned and coupled with that little forward step it was hard to beat.

Mel was always catching me in the ribs and with an uppercut too. I remember that smile when he knew he had you.

By the way, do you remember Mel would gently kiss his right hand as if he was going to throw it, then he would pop his left in your kisser?

Thanks for the memory!
Randy

[Randyman]

A real jab . . .

The jab is a great weapon, was the best for me, which brings to mind Danny Lopez's jab.
I worked more with Danny than probably any other boxer when it comes to sparring. Between 1969-75.
Danny had a short, jolting jab that you didn't want to let hit your face. Danny pushed it right thru the target, like Joe Louis.
Everything Danny touched you with could be a problem, and that goes for his jab.
I knew Danny hit hard and I felt the power, but he never really hurt me to the point where I was in trouble.
At some time or another, we both hurt each other. Danny would hit you, but he could be hit, and I hit him often.
If he ever rang my bell, well, I don't remember it, and that's something you don't forget.

But I do remember this. One day we're boxing at the Main St. Gym. We were both pros at the time, early in his career.
Danny's catches me with a jab to my chest, right above the solar plexus, on the bone.
I feel it, but it's too high to effect my breathing, no big deal. It kinda felt like I'd been poked by a thick broomstick in the chest.
The next morning I wake up an feel a sharp pain in my chest and can see it's bruised.
That was from a Danny Lopez jab to the chest, wearing 14oz. Casanova training gloves.

I have a lot of left jab memories. Good subject.


-Rick Farris

Danny did have a beautiful jab. It wasn't real fast but it was accurate. Danny set up everything else off that jab. My old stablemate Gary Pittman also sparred a few times with Danny. He paid the price too. Danny was a special fighter, no doubt about it.

Randy

[Randyman]

ANOTHER TIME ANOTHER PLACE

Been to L.A. more in the last year than I'd been in the last twenty. Drove up there today to the L.A. County Museum of Art on Wilshire Boulevard. The wing with the paintings by Rembrandt was closed for remodeling. Went back along the Pacific Coast Highway. It's been so long everything was new and different. More crowded and built up. No more beach towns.

So I got a little nostalgic. Pining for the days when I was a lot younger.Things were more simple. More relaxed. Didn't have all this technology to speed things up.

Yeah,the old days were better. The kids today don't get it. We can't explain it to them so they can change it back to the way it once was.They like it the way it is.

I remember just after high school working at a place that sold chicken for take out called "Chicken A Go." Made a 1.75 an hour. Rented a house by the beach for 50 dollars a month. Man,I was clearing almost 300 a month. Gas was 25 cents a gallon. Hot dogs at Weinerschnitzel were a penny less than a dime. During the summer we had the beach to ourselves.

My boss at "Chicken A Go" was this Samoan dude we called Ed Pineapple. One night I come into work and he said that his parents were moving away from the beach and going back to American Samoa.
"My dad and mom say San Diego grow too fast. Beach too crowded. Not like before. No more peace and quiet", said the big Pacific Islander.

That was back in 1965. I think about life along the coast today. When I feel I'm lost in another world that's indifferent and foreign to to me,I think of what Ed Pineapple's parents said almost fifty years ago.

I guess this generation of young folk will think the same way fifty years from now. It's hard for me to put that together right now.

We''re all turning into Mel Epstein!!

[Randyman]

My father was also a stickler for the jab. He believed whole heartedly that everything was worked off the jab. He never boxed professionally but he was a boxer in the Army. The jab could get you in and it could get you out. The last punch before moving out should be a jab. It keeps you in position. It acts like a compass. My father had a pretty fair jab himself.

Randy

[raylawpc]

My father was also a stickler for the jab. He believed whole heartedly that everything was worked off the jab. He never boxed professionally but he was a boxer in the Army. The jab could get you in and it could get you out. The last punch before moving out should be a jab. It keeps you in position. It acts like a compass. My father had a pretty fair jab himself.

Randy

You father was right. Everything should work off the jab.

[Randyman]

Rog:

I have to live with that guy, who often invokes the imagery of better days as a refreshing memory. Where were you when I was 22 and yearning to court a Flamenco dancer from the famed Trio Pompa in L.A ?. Of course, that was in the great times of Triana and Carmen Amaya, with Antonio and Rosario not far behind. Remember?

hap navarro

Hap 'Ol Pal

I don't remember any of that. Have only read about it. Guys like you and Frank and my dad were lucky to be around and sample the finer things. The class and style,like I said,are only in the pages of history books.



Carmen Amaya

Will be going to Spain next week. The Andalucia. My grand daughter will be dancing Flamenco. I'll be dancing in my heart.

Carmen Amaya in "Maria De La O" (1939)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvd-MALA7tw

[Randyman]

My father was also a stickler for the jab. He believed whole heartedly that everything was worked off the jab. He never boxed professionally but he was a boxer in the Army. The jab could get you in and it could get you out. The last punch before moving out should be a jab. It keeps you in position. It acts like a compass. My father had a pretty fair jab himself.

Randy

You father was right.

Over the long haul in boxing the jab has proven itself, time and again. It's the jab that separates boxing from all the other fighting sports and street fighting, and it's the jab they all try so hard to emulate.

Even Marciano's pawing, crouching jab was used to hide Rocky's right hand. He would use his jab to almost "Herd" his opponents into position.

Randy

[raylawpc]

My father was also a stickler for the jab. He believed whole heartedly that everything was worked off the jab. He never boxed professionally but he was a boxer in the Army. The jab could get you in and it could get you out. The last punch before moving out should be a jab. It keeps you in position. It acts like a compass. My father had a pretty fair jab himself.

Randy

You father was right.

Over the long haul in boxing the jab has proven itself, time and again. It's the jab that separates boxing from all the other fighting sports and street fighting, and it's the jab they all try so hard to emulate.

Even Marciano's pawing, crouching jab was used to hide Rocky's right hand. He would use his jab to almost "Herd" his opponents into position.

Randy

Yes indeed! Rocky is a good example. Another is Ingo. His jab wasn't a thing of beauty, but I believe that, while he stopped Machen and Patterson with the right hand, he beat them with the jab.

[Randyman]

Hey guys, sorry about not posting much lately. I've been hitting it pretty hard at work with the over time. My body doesn't handle it quite as well as it once did. I know we have all been there in one way or another.

The aircraft industry is schedule driven. Planes have to be delivered on time and no if's ands or buts. Especially with the Air Force being our customer. So between the company's needs and my personal needs I have been busy.

This site and you guys have become so important to me that when I am not on I am having withdrawals. I keep wondering what I'm missing. This thread is on my mind even when I'm not on it.

I love that "Classic West Coast Boxing" is keeping the names of our favorite fighters and trainers, alive and in some cases, as with Johnny Forbes, bringing them back alive, metaphorically speaking.

Randy

[Randyman]

I agree Tom. A jab doesn't have to be a thing of beauty, it just has to do it's job.

Randy

[Randyman]

Larry Holmes had a great but vastly under appreciated jab. It was a text book jab. say what you want about Larry, and you would probably be right but it was the jab that got him there.

Ali, on the other hand, had a flicking backhanded sort of jab but somehow for him it worked, at least until his legs and hands slowed down and he became somewhat of a flat footed fighter. The jab was no longer effective.

Angelo Dundee once said of Ali (while Ali was still in his prime) "He does everything wrong but he does it better than anyone"

Randy

[Rick Farris]

"An Educated Left Hand . . ."

OK, this one is aimed at Randy.
This was a term used my our old pal, Mel Epstein.

Do you remember Mel discussing Dave Shade and Jock Malone?
"Dave Shade had an 'educated left hand'' and could . . ."
And then Mel would demonstrate a move right in front of you.

You'd be standing relaxed, and he'd put up his hands, feint-shift, dip and some how slip the knuckles of his boney little fist between your ribs.
He'd then have a big smile on his face, enjoying your unexpected discomfort. I think it was one of those "old man-young man" things

Mike Nixon was so pissed when Mel slipped his shot in, he unloaded a left hook in the direction of Mel's head.
This is a true story. Old Mel expected the return and slipped out of the way. Nixon missed by a mile.
And you can bet that Mel had that smile on his face.


-Rick Farris

Rick, I can't remember the names but yes, Mel was a stickler for "Educated left hand". If you remember, his jab was a little different than most jabs. The hand was extended a lot further out and the fist was parallel to the floor. Once it was learned and coupled with that little forward step it was hard to beat.

Mel was always catching me in the ribs and with an uppercut too. I remember that smile when he knew he had you.

By the way, do you remember Mel would gently kiss his right hand as if he was going to throw it, then he would pop his left in your kisser?

Thanks for the memory!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Randy . . . Yes, his jab didn't rotate into the target like others. I had pretty good jab when I hooked up with Mel, that jab had saved me.
However, when I began to combine Mel's jab, closer to the target, knuckles up, it really had a place. I would alter how I threw my jab.
I threw it a lot to the body, body-head jab combos. Mel's inverted jab to the body was a great punch, hard to see, defend against, from a totally strange angle.

If there was one fighter who could do all of things that Mel tried to teach and have the quality to execute them I bet he'd be championship material. Actually, there was, his name is Young Firpo.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

ANOTHER TIME ANOTHER PLACE

Been to L.A. more in the last year than I'd been in the last twenty. Drove up there today to the L.A. County Museum of Art on Wilshire Boulevard. The wing with the paintings by Rembrandt was closed for remodeling. Went back along the Pacific Coast Highway. It's been so long everything was new and different. More crowded and built up. No more beach towns.

So I got a little nostalgic. Pining for the days when I was a lot younger.Things were more simple. More relaxed. Didn't have all this technology to speed things up.

Yeah,the old days were better. The kids today don't get it. We can't explain it to them so they can change it back to the way it once was.They like it the way it is.

I remember just after high school working at a place that sold chicken for take out called "Chicken A Go." Made a 1.75 an hour. Rented a house by the beach for 50 dollars a month. Man,I was clearing almost 300 a month. Gas was 25 cents a gallon. Hot dogs at Weinerschnitzel were a penny less than a dime. During the summer we had the beach to ourselves.

My boss at "Chicken A Go" was this Samoan dude we called Ed Pineapple. One night I come into work and he said that his parents were moving away from the beach and going back to American Samoa.
"My dad and mom say San Diego grow too fast. Beach too crowded. Not like before. No more peace and quiet", said the big Pacific Islander.

That was back in 1965. I think about life along the coast today. When I feel I'm lost in another world that's indifferent and foreign to to me,I think of what Ed Pineapple's parents said almost fifty years ago.

I guess this generation of young folk will think the same way fifty years from now. It's hard for me to put that together right now.

We''re all turning into Mel Epstein!!

Ain't it the truth