Why is Sonny Liston considered an all-time great?

[zslayton]

Look, I know it is a stupid question, but Liston only won the title, then defended it once before losing it to Ali.

I know that Patterson's people dodged him for a long time, but I look at the list of fighters he fought and he only beat a few top notch heavy's. I am not bashing him. I am sure he would clean up the division at nearly any point in the history of boxing, he just happened along at the same time as and early Ali.

I just don't get how anyone can argue this. Clarify for me please.

[dempseyfire]

B/c while Patterson ducked him fighting the likes of Pete Rademacher, Liston was clearing out a deep HW division, beating the likes of Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Mike DeJohn, and Nino Valdez. And he beat these guys when they were in their prime, not the washed up Williams and Folley a young Ali beat while champ. The guy then destroyed Patterson twice in a row.
His official age is also mis-leading-historians believe Liston was at least 5 years older then his official bio, meaning the very controverial Clay losses occured when Liston was in his mid-late 30s (and there is no way the 2nd Clay fight was on the level). Then into his 40s he made a decent comback befoe getting stopped by the very under-rated Leotis Martin in a fight which he was handidly winning. The guy was extreamly athletic for his bulky body type and was an excellent boxer as well as one of the heaviest hitters of all time. And the guy was just bad to boot.

[Sweet Scientist]

His official age is also mis-leading-historians believe Liston was at least 5 years older then his official bio,

I've been hearing this forever...that Liston was older...where does it originate? Is this just another rumor that gets passed down through the ages or is there actual, real evidence that can be supported???

Aside from that, I felt Liston was one of the best ever...and there was a general feeling to that effect before he lost to a young Cassius Clay...when he became a 'bum' overnight...ridiculously unfair...every great champion had a loss or two...I think Liston would fare quite well against a lineup of the greatest heavyweights of all time...wouldn't win them all, but he'd win his share...styles make fights...a good boxer, vicious jab, a reach actually longer that Ali, if I'm not mistaken...a 8-1 favorite against Ali, his biggest problem was underestimating Ali...he thought it was going to be another easy title defense...Ali certainly wasn't thought of as a legitimate threat, especially after being knocked down and badly shaken by Henry Cooper, and just 'squeaking by' Doug Jones in his two previous fights...if Cooper could drop him, Liston could kill him...or so they thought... If Sonny Liston was around today, he'd flatten every heavyweight out there...I know that's not saying much, but still...

[Old bones Ian]

I kind of go along with the questions, if your an all time great then you should win more than 2 title fights, and not get stopped twice by someone who was not the hardest puncher in the world.

Liston was dodged by Patterson, so maybe we didn't see him as champ in his prime. If he had got his shot earlier than he could have ruled for longer.

He must go down as a what if

[dempseyfire]

His official age is also mis-leading-historians believe Liston was at least 5 years older then his official bio,

I've been hearing this forever...that Liston was older...where does it originate? Is this just another rumor that gets passed down through the ages or is there actual, real evidence that can be supported???

Aside from that, I felt Liston was one of the best ever...and there was a general feeling to that effect before he lost to a young Cassius Clay...when he became a 'bum' overnight...ridiculously unfair...every great champion had a loss or two...I think Liston would fare quite well against a lineup of the greatest heavyweights of all time...wouldn't win them all, but he'd win his share...styles make fights...a good boxer, vicious jab, a reach actually longer that Ali, if I'm not mistaken...a 8-1 favorite against Ali, his biggest problem was underestimating Ali...he thought it was going to be another easy title defense...Ali certainly wasn't thought of as a legitimate threat, especially after being knocked down and badly shaken by Henry Cooper, and just 'squeaking by' Doug Jones in his two previous fights...if Cooper could drop him, Liston could kill him...or so they thought... If Sonny Liston was around today, he'd flatten every heavyweight out there...I know that's not saying much, but still...

It's explained in the 'Devil and Sonny Liston' book. I think it was something like if you followed the age he (Sonny) gave to people, and looked at his police records, it didn't corroborate at all-his first felony would've been committed when he was around 8 years old . . . . .

[elmersalsa]

I consider the Sonny Liston an all time great by anyone standards. Asides Ali, He whupped the best of the best fighters of his time in the late 50s and early 60s.

[Question: From 1 to 100, where would you rank him with all the all-time best pound per pound???

[dan1030]

I won't even attempt to come up with an all-time p4p list, but as an all-time best heavyweight (going on a who would beat whom/who fought the best competition sort of basis) I could see putting him in the bottom half of the top ten...say around 7th or 8th--maybe even higher since we're not using title reign/defenses etc. as a basis for this list.

[knockout artist]

B/c while Patterson ducked him fighting the likes of Pete Rademacher, Liston was clearing out a deep HW division, beating the likes of Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Mike DeJohn, and Nino Valdez. And he beat these guys when they were in their prime, not the washed up Williams and Folley a young Ali beat while champ. The guy then destroyed Patterson twice in a row.
His official age is also mis-leading-historians believe Liston was at least 5 years older then his official bio, meaning the very controverial Clay losses occured when Liston was in his mid-late 30s (and there is no way the 2nd Clay fight was on the level). Then into his 40s he made a decent comback befoe getting stopped by the very under-rated Leotis Martin in a fight which he was handidly winning. The guy was extreamly athletic for his bulky body type and was an excellent boxer as well as one of the heaviest hitters of all time. And the guy was just bad to boot.

You have summed it up perfectly.

Personally from reseach I have done, I reckon Liston could have been as old as 42 when he fought Clay in 1964.

[Old bones Ian]

do you think he could have got up quicker in the second Ali fight?

he did seem to be quite clearheaded, just not that bothered about getting up. but i have no doubt that it was a punch that put him down, some say Ali missed.

[Sweet Scientist]

Personally from reseach I have done, I reckon Liston could have been as old as 42 when he fought Clay in 1964.

Could you possibly elaborate on your research, assuming it is from other sources the the book mentioned by dempseyfire? I'd like to study up on this, I find it very intriguing...and it would certainly explain how a young Cassius Clay pulled off the biggest boxing upset up to that point in time....

[Controversial]

I personally think Liston was slightly over rated. Yes he beat some 'names' but remember Machen was KO'ed in one round earlier by Ingemar Johannson. Also Valdes was past his best, he only had one more fight after fighting Liston before he retired. Cleveland Williams had a glass jaw and Folley was a so-so fighter but he hardly set the world alight.

Patterson, as good a fighter as he was, was no match for Liston. Patterson didn't have the greatest of chins, he was decked more times than I can remember. Liston was also physically so much bigger and stronger than Patterson so it's not surprising he destroyed him.

Liston only defended his title once, a rematch against the outgunned Patterson again and was then beat by Ali. Remember he hardly layed a glove on Ali and looked totally clueless as to what to do. After losing to Ali again, albeit in dubious surroundings, he went on to fight a string of non-entities before he was sparked by Leotis Martin.

OK Liston was a big mean looking guy, with a big punch but I can't see why some people rate him as highly as they do. But hey thats just my opinion.........

[Sweet Scientist]

I personally think Liston was slightly over rated. Yes he beat some 'names' but remember Machen was KO'ed in one round earlier by Ingemar Johannson. Also Valdes was past his best, he only had one more fight after fighting Liston before he retired. Cleveland Williams had a glass jaw and Folley was a so-so fighter but he hardly set the world alight.

Patterson, as good a fighter as he was, was no match for Liston. Patterson didn't have the greatest of chins, he was decked more times than I can remember. Liston was also physically so much bigger and stronger than Patterson so it's not surprising he destroyed him.

Liston only defended his title once, a rematch against the outgunned Patterson again and was then beat by Ali. Remember he hardly layed a glove on Ali and looked totally clueless as to what to do. After losing to Ali again, albeit in dubious surroundings, he went on to fight a string of non-entities before he was sparked by Leotis Martin.

OK Liston was a big mean looking guy, with a big punch but I can't see why some people rate him as highly as they do. But hey thats just my opinion.........

I think you dramatically underestimate the skills of Machen, Folley, and Williams...a trio of heavies that would clean house today....
You also underestimate the right hand of Johansson....
As far as Cleveland Williams having a glass jaw, most guys Liston hit had a glass jaw...and the Williams who fought Ali was lucky to be alive, let alone fighting, after being shot and critically injured a couple years earlier...Williams wasn't at his peak when he was bounced up and down off the floor in that fight...

"a big mean looking guy, with a big punch but I can't see why some people rate him as highly as they do."

Do you say the same thing about George Foreman? Joe Frazier? Jack Dempsey? They were 'big, mean looking guys with a big punch', were they not? It's just my opinion, but I think Liston fits right in with those guys

[dempseyfire]

I personally think Liston was slightly over rated. Yes he beat some 'names' but remember Machen was KO'ed in one round earlier by Ingemar Johannson. Also Valdes was past his best, he only had one more fight after fighting Liston before he retired. Cleveland Williams had a glass jaw and Folley was a so-so fighter but he hardly set the world alight.

Patterson, as good a fighter as he was, was no match for Liston. Patterson didn't have the greatest of chins, he was decked more times than I can remember. Liston was also physically so much bigger and stronger than Patterson so it's not surprising he destroyed him.

Liston only defended his title once, a rematch against the outgunned Patterson again and was then beat by Ali. Remember he hardly layed a glove on Ali and looked totally clueless as to what to do. After losing to Ali again, albeit in dubious surroundings, he went on to fight a string of non-entities before he was sparked by Leotis Martin.

OK Liston was a big mean looking guy, with a big punch but I can't see why some people rate him as highly as they do. But hey thats just my opinion.........

I think you dramatically underestimate the skills of Machen, Folley, and Williams...a trio of heavies that would clean house today....
You also underestimate the right hand of Johansson....
As far as Cleveland Williams having a glass jaw, most guys Liston hit had a glass jaw...and the Williams who fought Ali was lucky to be alive, let alone fighting, after being shot and critically injured a couple years earlier...Williams wasn't at his peak when he was bounced up and down off the floor in that fight...

"a big mean looking guy, with a big punch but I can't see why some people rate him as highly as they do."

Do you say the same thing about George Foreman? Joe Frazier? Jack Dempsey? They were 'big, mean looking guys with a big punch', were they not? It's just my opinion, but I think Liston fits right in with those guys

How does Cleveland Williams have a glass jaw when he was only KO'd by Liston and Satterfield, two monster hitters, (Satterfield was basically the Corrie Sanders of his day-he was dangerous to anybody for the first 3 rounds before he competly gassed out) before his incident in Texas. Sure he got KO'd several times when he was physically depleted and fighting way past his expiration date but what fighter doesn't get KO'd then??? Watch films of Williams in his prime if he was around today people would be calling him a phenom-great speed and power, throwing quadruple left hooks, very good jab etc.
You know a belt holder named Chris Byrd?? Machen was like a A grade version of Byrd, just as fast and clever defensively but he hit harder and was physically stronger. He also kept the fight in ring center and didn't lie on the ropes like Byrd just loves to do . . . .

That Liston beat those guys decisviely and the likes of DeJohn and Folley so easily demonstrates the guys skill level. Not just any mean puncher could beat those guys.

[zslayton]

I saw something on fox sports or espn classic the other day that Liston admitted laying down against Ali in the second fight. It had something to do with the nation of Islam throwing death threats his way and he just felt like it wasn't worth it.

I don't know how true that is, but it makes sense because it was a grazing punch. The worst it could have done was scratch him, not knock him out. I don't think there is any question that he threw that fight.

Like I said, I am not doubting his greatness, but questioned it because he only defended the title one time before losing it. In this day and age if a guy did that he would be considered a p.o.s. and not to be mentioned in the same breath as champs much less great all-time fighters.

In my opinion Liston would walk through the heavy's of the past 25 years with little to no trouble. The only ones I think would be able to handle him and beat him are Evander Holyfield, maybe Larry Holmes, and maybe Mike Tyson (at their peak of course). Holyfield because he wouldn't give in to the fear and he wouldn't be shown up by a bully. Tyson because I feel that he is Liston part II, and Holmes because he was fast and could keep him away with a jab.

[Johnny Carwash]

His official age is also mis-leading-historians believe Liston was at least 5 years older then his official bio,

I've been hearing this forever...that Liston was older...where does it originate? Is this just another rumor that gets passed down through the ages or is there actual, real evidence that can be supported???

Aside from that, I felt Liston was one of the best ever...and there was a general feeling to that effect before he lost to a young Cassius Clay...when he became a 'bum' overnight...ridiculously unfair...every great champion had a loss or two...I think Liston would fare quite well against a lineup of the greatest heavyweights of all time...wouldn't win them all, but he'd win his share...styles make fights...a good boxer, vicious jab, a reach actually longer that Ali, if I'm not mistaken...a 8-1 favorite against Ali, his biggest problem was underestimating Ali...he thought it was going to be another easy title defense...Ali certainly wasn't thought of as a legitimate threat, especially after being knocked down and badly shaken by Henry Cooper, and just 'squeaking by' Doug Jones in his two previous fights...if Cooper could drop him, Liston could kill him...or so they thought... If Sonny Liston was around today, he'd flatten every heavyweight out there...I know that's not saying much, but still...

It's explained in the 'Devil and Sonny Liston' book. I think it was something like if you followed the age he (Sonny) gave to people, and looked at his police records, it didn't corroborate at all-his first felony would've been committed when he was around 8 years old . . . . .

I've also read that when Liston's supposed age was being given as around 30, he had a 17-year-old daughter. I suppose this could be possible, but it's doubtful.

[mrbassie]

I saw something on fox sports or espn classic the other day that Liston admitted laying down against Ali in the second fight. It had something to do with the nation of Islam throwing death threats his way and he just felt like it wasn't worth it.

I don't know how true that is, but it makes sense because it was a grazing punch. The worst it could have done was scratch him, not knock him out. I don't think there is any question that he threw that fight.

I actually disagree with that, I used to think it was a fix but then I saw an in colour version of the fight which shows the punch from a different angle (with Liston facing the camera which was closer than in the most commonly shown tape of the fight), it wasn't a graze it landed flush on the temple and it was very fast but still solid/sharp. I believe Liston's original (how are you supposed to get up when the man is standing over you) story. Liston got to a knee, Ali skipped across the ring to where he was kneeling and when he saw him he lay down again to (presumably) avoid getting hit while down, which is why it looks like theatrics.
I believe the kd was genuine but Walcott should have stopped the count until Ali was under control. More of a farce than a fix.

[Sweet Scientist]

More of a farce than a fix.

I'd go along with that....no witnesses, no paper trail, no huge sum of money, not a huge amount of betting action on the fight, a congressional inquiry into boxing, if I remember, produced nothing...no proof...other than what you see in a less than 2 minutes of fight film....Sonny got hit, you can clearly see it in slow motion...was it hard enough?...was he already over 40?...Did he just do his own version of 'No Mas'? You can argue about it, but we'll never really know....so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt...we've all seen stranger things in boxing....

[tonyevs]

Tyson has been compared to Liston from early in his career, and it has followed him through it also, and there have been comparisons.

Liston was the bad guy, an intimidator who struck fear into grown men.
He was the real thing, not hype bad, but real bad.
Controversy followed him like a shadow, a dark shadow, even to his death.

The age thing always comes up, Liston probably didn’t know himself .
The Ali fight, also is full of controversy, and with very good reasons.
Do not forget almost everybody ringside that night called the fight a fix and many prominent figures in the game called for bans and investigations into both fighters.

Like Tyson though he had a soft side, and was known to be gentle giant.

A well-informed and unbiased book on Liston is `Night Train by Nick Tosches`

[Sweet Scientist]

The Ali fight, also is full of controversy, and with very good reasons.
Do not forget almost everybody ringside that night called the fight a fix and many prominent figures in the game called for bans and investigations into both fighters.

As I mentioned, I thought there was a congressional inquiry into boxing after that fight...that's the same investigating body that screwed with Jimmy Hoffa, the Mafia & organized crime, etc. just a few years earlier...if there was anything to find out about that fight...you'd have thought they would come up with a 'squealer'...or a paper trail...or something...

[6 Pack]

[quote="tonyevs"]
Like Tyson though he had a soft side, and was known to be gentle giant.

quote]

Like Tyson he was also accusted of rape. Read another book called the Devil and Sonny Liston. Tyson and Liston should never be called gentle giants. Just because they did not always snap on people does not make them gentle. Just because they did not act a fool to kids does not make them gentle giants.

WHo the hell does snap on a little kid? Then who would not fit the mold for having a soft side?

[tonyevs]

So what convinces you both these boxers were pure bad?

[6 Pack]

"pure bad"?

What does that mean? I already said they may not walk the streets punching people in the face on any given day. But does that make them gentle giants? If you are not "pure bad" you are a gentle giant?

Just because they were not ALWAYS causing trouble does not mean they had a gentle side. Know what I mean? It just means they can act normal at times. Wow, big achievement.

Read about some of the things Sonny did to some protitutes he would pick up (sending them to the hospital was a regular thing) in that book I suggested.

Calling him a gentle giant is past generous. It is false. Trying to justify calling him that by saying he was not ALWAYS beating some one up or raping a women is laughable. Actually it is not funny at all.

[tonyevs]

Take it you don`t like him then....?

[6 Pack]

Don't get me wrong buddy, I think he was a hell of a boxer and the best heavy of his era (between Rocky and Ali), but he was not the greatest man around. You would not want him to take out your 18 year old daughter (or sister). Same with Tyson.

I think that goes without saying. But really, read The Devil and Sonny Liston. It is a book that gives it straight with no excuses (which is refreshing as some book have biases).

Sonny sending prostitutes to the hospital was not a big thing then. It happened ALOT. He almost got charged for rape, but they threw money at it.

[wouter]

I think you're talking about the same book