What was the Great Joe Louis heaviest weight???

[elmersalsa]

What was Joe Louis highest weight??? Was he overrated or underrated in your opinion??? Could he outlast with today's BIG BOYS??? He looked too small for me to be considered a heavyweight in today's standards. He would have been a cruiserwight at most.

[Alex]

Joe Louis was the most complete Heavyweight in terms of boxing ability of any era. There isn't a heavyweight in the game at the moment worthy of sharing the same ring as Louis.

[dempseyfire]

He tore his larger opponents (6'3 Max Baer, 6'7 Buddy Baer, 6'5 Abe Simon, 6'5 Primo Carnera) a new asshole. And those guys were below Lewis but better then your McClines and Whitakers. He would rule the division even moreso now then he did in the 30s and 40s. He was plenty big enough 6'1 1/2, 205 lbs optimum weight. Later in his career he weighed as much as 218 I believe. If you thinking Lewis-Louis, just watch Lewis-Mercer. The 6'1 Mercer, who had the same reach as Louis, was able to get on the inside via a good jab and combinations on the inside-yet he made the fight close b/c he was vastly overweight and got fatigued after every flurry. Louis, who had a better jab, much better defense, much better stamina, and overall more skilled then Mercer, would've gotten the job done which the old fat Mercer couldn't do, and knock Lennox out.

[Sherlock]

I think the only guys who could beat Louis would have to be either:
1. A great boxer with an incredible chin
2. A great puncher with finishing instincts

Guys like Liston or a prime Tyson could have a chance since Louis had a shaky chin but would have to be able to finish the job or Louis would take the out.

Or Boxers like Ali or even Lennox could probably outbox him. But Lewis could not have kept it up and Louis would figure out his style and would chop him down. Ali had speed but if guys like Henry Cooper could catch Ali so could Louis would, who would stop him late. Ali after his three year abscence would suffer the same fate, only earlier.

I think Louis is rated as he should be, one of the best of all time. To me, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever, behind Jack Johnson, who was a fantastic boxer who toyed with is opponents and could stop them when he wanted and broke the barrier, without him Joe would never have been champ.

[dempseyfire]

I think the only guys who could beat Louis would have to be either:
1. A great boxer with an incredible chin
2. A great puncher with finishing instincts

Guys like Liston or a prime Tyson could have a chance since Louis had a shaky chin but would have to be able to finish the job or Louis would take the out.

Or Boxers like Ali or even Lennox could probably outbox him. But Lewis could not have kept it up and Louis would figure out his style and would chop him down. Ali had speed but if guys like Henry Cooper could catch Ali so could Louis would, who would stop him late. Ali after his three year abscence would suffer the same fate, only earlier.

I think Louis is rated as he should be, one of the best of all time. To me, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever, behind Jack Johnson, who was a fantastic boxer who toyed with is opponents and could stop them when he wanted and broke the barrier, without him Joe would never have been champ.

I think Joe def. have an above average chin. I think his problem had more to do with balance then having a weak jaw-he took some monster shots from the likes of both Baer brothers but was never in any kind of trouble. With the exception of Schmeling and (of course the ill-fated Marciano comeback fight), in which Max landed around 2 dozen flush right hands over the course of the fight before Louis went down for the count (and Joe fought back the whole way), all of his knockdowns were flash knockdowns in which Joe got up right away without being shaken up one bit. On the contrary, he usually got angry/embarassed and finished the fight soon afterward.

[IronKidDynamite]

I think the only guys who could beat Louis would have to be either:
1. A great boxer with an incredible chin
2. A great puncher with finishing instincts

Guys like Liston or a prime Tyson could have a chance since Louis had a shaky chin but would have to be able to finish the job or Louis would take the out.

Or Boxers like Ali or even Lennox could probably outbox him. But Lewis could not have kept it up and Louis would figure out his style and would chop him down. Ali had speed but if guys like Henry Cooper could catch Ali so could Louis would, who would stop him late. Ali after his three year abscence would suffer the same fate, only earlier.

I think Louis is rated as he should be, one of the best of all time. To me, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever, behind Jack Johnson, who was a fantastic boxer who toyed with is opponents and could stop them when he wanted and broke the barrier, without him Joe would never have been champ.

I think Joe def. have an above average chin. I think his problem had more to do with balance then having a weak jaw-he took some monster shots from the likes of both Baer brothers but was never in any kind of trouble. With the exception of Schmeling and (of course the ill-fated Marciano comeback fight), in which Max landed around 2 dozen flush right hands over the course of the fight before Louis went down for the count (and Joe fought back the whole way), all of his knockdowns were flash knockdowns in which Joe got up right away without being shaken up one bit. On the contrary, he usually got angry/embarassed and finished the fight soon afterward.

I watched the Baer fights both Buddy and Max, I didnt see him take any monster shots? Apart from the one that put him down against Buddy of course. :)

Every time Schmeling landed a right hand in the fight Louis was badly and obviously shaken and wobbled. The knockdowns were all flash knockdowns but he still went down from a punch that landed each time.

Its like saying Corrales had a better than average chin at superfeather since every knockdown of his was balance related. Whether it was or not, he still went down 8 times from punches that landed. The fact is Louis and Corrales and Trinidad all went down whenever they were hit.

[Sherlock]

I would say he had an above-average chin also but he could be wobbled by overhand rights.And half his knockdowns came at the end of his career(Walcott-3, Marciano-2). But you brought up one of his biggest flaws-he was off-balance once in awhile. If anybody was caught by any big puncher while off balance, they could be knocked out, regardless of how good their chin is. Anyone can be knocked out if hit clean.

But don't get me wrong, Joe was one of the greatest and could even be called the greatest ever and I take nothing away from him.

[dempseyfire]

I think the only guys who could beat Louis would have to be either:
1. A great boxer with an incredible chin
2. A great puncher with finishing instincts

Guys like Liston or a prime Tyson could have a chance since Louis had a shaky chin but would have to be able to finish the job or Louis would take the out.

Or Boxers like Ali or even Lennox could probably outbox him. But Lewis could not have kept it up and Louis would figure out his style and would chop him down. Ali had speed but if guys like Henry Cooper could catch Ali so could Louis would, who would stop him late. Ali after his three year abscence would suffer the same fate, only earlier.

I think Louis is rated as he should be, one of the best of all time. To me, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever, behind Jack Johnson, who was a fantastic boxer who toyed with is opponents and could stop them when he wanted and broke the barrier, without him Joe would never have been champ.

I think Joe def. have an above average chin. I think his problem had more to do with balance then having a weak jaw-he took some monster shots from the likes of both Baer brothers but was never in any kind of trouble. With the exception of Schmeling and (of course the ill-fated Marciano comeback fight), in which Max landed around 2 dozen flush right hands over the course of the fight before Louis went down for the count (and Joe fought back the whole way), all of his knockdowns were flash knockdowns in which Joe got up right away without being shaken up one bit. On the contrary, he usually got angry/embarassed and finished the fight soon afterward.

I watched the Baer fights both Buddy and Max, I didnt see him take any monster shots? Apart from the one that put him down against Buddy of course. :)

Every time Schmeling landed a right hand in the fight Louis was badly and obviously shaken and wobbled. The knockdowns were all flash knockdowns but he still went down from a punch that landed each time.

Its like saying Corrales had a better than average chin at superfeather since every knockdown of his was balance related. Whether it was or not, he still went down 8 times from punches that landed. The fact is Louis and Corrales and Trinidad all went down whenever they were hit.

Um watch the 1st round against Max Baer, toward the last minute Baer opens up and lands a hard flurry of rights and lefts clean. Louis takes them all and retialiates with his own combinations.
If you have a tendency to put you feet close together while punching like Joe did, you will surely be more prone to getting knocked down by a punch. Just b/c he went down doesn't equate a bad chin, its how you respond after the knockdown. Ali went down several times in his career, but he is rightly is credited with one of the best chins ever. Lennox Lewis only went down twice, but he was wobbled/stunned and forced to hang on many more times then Louis ever was . . . .

[Jaclem]

okay, everybody here....listen to dempseyfire re: the joe louis chin. he was wobbled by max baer's HEAVY PUNCHES,and by galento (BEFORE THE KNOCKDOWN) but he had amazing recuperative powers, and, as dempsyguy says, usually came roaring back when hurt. balance...plus he was usually moving forward which made him more susceptible (sp) and gave the punches he
took more power. when tami mauriello caught him cold,( and when he was past his prime) tami knocked him clear across the ring..and the ropes are all that held him up. a still photo shows him glassy eyed and in trouble. but...in the few seconds it took tami to get to him joe was recovered and furious and tore into tami with rapidfire bombs.....one punch has tami actually in the air ...several inches off the canvas.

the louis chin is much underrated. he was as close to being a perfect heavyweight as one could be.

[Marciano Frazier]

What was Joe Louis highest weight??? Was he overrated or underrated in your opinion??? Could he outlast with today's BIG BOYS??? He looked too small for me to be considered a heavyweight in today's standards. He would have been a cruiserwight at most.

No, Louis was a 200+ pound heavyweight at his peak. His heaviest weight ever was about 216 for one of his comeback fights in between the Charles and Marciano fights. But does it somehow make you think he was better that he came in ten pounds overweight for his comeback fights, because it makes his heaviest weight higher? I'm sure you think Tua is great too, since he weighs a whole 250 pounds! Wow, that's impressive, huh? He'd clearly beat the crap out of Louis, right?

I don't think Louis is overrated or underrated. Does everyone have to be? He was one of the five greatest heavyweight boxers of all time, and is rated exactly as he should be in that range.

[knockout artist]

What was Joe Louis highest weight??? Was he overrated or underrated in your opinion??? Could he outlast with today's BIG BOYS??? He looked too small for me to be considered a heavyweight in today's standards. He would have been a cruiserwight at most.

No, Louis was a 200+ pound heavyweight at his peak. His heaviest weight ever was about 216 for one of his comeback fights in between the Charles and Marciano fights. But does it somehow make you think he was better that he came in ten pounds overweight for his comeback fights, because it makes his heaviest weight higher? I'm sure you think Tua is great too, since he weighs a whole 250 pounds! Wow, that's impressive, huh? He'd clearly beat the crap out of Louis, right?

I don't think Louis is overrated or underrated. Does everyone have to be? He was one of the five greatest heavyweight boxers of all time, and is rated exactly as he should be in that range.

Louis's peak weight was a shade below 199 when he Ko'd Schmeling who weighed 193.

[IronKidDynamite]

I think Joe def. have an above average chin. I think his problem had more to do with balance then having a weak jaw-he took some monster shots from the likes of both Baer brothers but was never in any kind of trouble. With the exception of Schmeling and (of course the ill-fated Marciano comeback fight), in which Max landed around 2 dozen flush right hands over the course of the fight before Louis went down for the count (and Joe fought back the whole way), all of his knockdowns were flash knockdowns in which Joe got up right away without being shaken up one bit. On the contrary, he usually got angry/embarassed and finished the fight soon afterward.

I watched the Baer fights both Buddy and Max, I didnt see him take any monster shots? Apart from the one that put him down against Buddy of course. :)

Every time Schmeling landed a right hand in the fight Louis was badly and obviously shaken and wobbled. The knockdowns were all flash knockdowns but he still went down from a punch that landed each time.

Its like saying Corrales had a better than average chin at superfeather since every knockdown of his was balance related. Whether it was or not, he still went down 8 times from punches that landed. The fact is Louis and Corrales and Trinidad all went down whenever they were hit.

Um watch the 1st round against Max Baer, toward the last minute Baer opens up and lands a hard flurry of rights and lefts clean. Louis takes them all and retialiates with his own combinations.
If you have a tendency to put you feet close together while punching like Joe did, you will surely be more prone to getting knocked down by a punch. Just b/c he went down doesn't equate a bad chin, its how you respond after the knockdown. Ali went down several times in his career, but he is rightly is credited with one of the best chins ever. Lennox Lewis only went down twice, but he was wobbled/stunned and forced to hang on many more times then Louis ever was . . . .

So basically Corrales has a good chin in your logic, right? After all, while he went down flash knockdowns from Casamayor and Mayweather, he still took shots from Freitas and didnt go down.

I never mentioned Lewis. And Baer didnt land his best shots clean as you say, none of the shots were huge and none landed clean, Louis had his hands in place. When you rate a chin its about how much it took to put you down. For example for Tony Zale to be put down against Cerdan, or Tyson to go down against Douglas, it took rounds and rounds of huge punishment and big shots right on the chin to put them down, they stayed down but it still took that much.

[dempseyfire]

I watched the Baer fights both Buddy and Max, I didnt see him take any monster shots? Apart from the one that put him down against Buddy of course. :)

Every time Schmeling landed a right hand in the fight Louis was badly and obviously shaken and wobbled. The knockdowns were all flash knockdowns but he still went down from a punch that landed each time.

Its like saying Corrales had a better than average chin at superfeather since every knockdown of his was balance related. Whether it was or not, he still went down 8 times from punches that landed. The fact is Louis and Corrales and Trinidad all went down whenever they were hit.

Um watch the 1st round against Max Baer, toward the last minute Baer opens up and lands a hard flurry of rights and lefts clean. Louis takes them all and retialiates with his own combinations.
If you have a tendency to put you feet close together while punching like Joe did, you will surely be more prone to getting knocked down by a punch. Just b/c he went down doesn't equate a bad chin, its how you respond after the knockdown. Ali went down several times in his career, but he is rightly is credited with one of the best chins ever. Lennox Lewis only went down twice, but he was wobbled/stunned and forced to hang on many more times then Louis ever was . . . .

So basically Corrales has a good chin in your logic, right? After all, while he went down flash knockdowns from Casamayor and Mayweather, he still took shots from Freitas and didnt go down.

I never mentioned Lewis. And Baer didnt land his best shots clean as you say, none of the shots were huge and none landed clean, Louis had his hands in place. When you rate a chin its about how much it took to put you down. For example for Tony Zale to be put down against Cerdan, or Tyson to go down against Douglas, it took rounds and rounds of huge punishment and big shots right on the chin to put them down, they stayed down but it still took that much.

Why does it matter if a fighter goes down but is not hurt??? It shoud matter if the fighter gets KNOCKED OUT. Like Tyson vs Douglas, Louis-Schmeling was Joe goung through rounds and rounds of punishment before finally going down for the count, and that fight was more competetive then Tyson-Douglas. Trinidad is a pretty good comparison-he went down in fights but was never really hurt, and it took many one-sided rounds with Hopkins for him to finally get knocked out.

[elmersalsa]

"No, Louis was a 200+ pound heavyweight at his peak. His heaviest weight ever was about 216 for one of his comeback fights in between the Charles and Marciano fights. But does it somehow make you think he was better that he came in ten pounds overweight for his comeback fights, because it makes his heaviest weight higher? I'm sure you think Tua is great too, since he weighs a whole 250 pounds! Wow, that's impressive, huh? He'd clearly beat the crap out of Louis, right?" ------ written by Marciano Frazier

I am not saying that David Tua is great because he weigh 250 or more. But let's be realistic here. Could Louis with only 199 pounds in his prime would've beat TODAY'S GIANTS like Vitali Klitscko, Danny Williams, Ike Ibeabuchi, and former and present fighters like Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, and other guys that weigh in more than 240 lbs???

I admit that Louis probably had better boxing skills than any of them, and to my personal view LOUIS is the GREATEST KO ARTIST OF ALL TIME, but let's look at the weight difference gentlemen??? THESE GUYS TODAY ARE TOO BIG NOW AND CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO BIG FOR THE 1940s and 50s heavys.

Can really Louis take one from Tyson??? Razor Ruddock??? a 260-pound George Foreman??? or Tommy Morrison???

Let's not put the nostalgic memories into play and look at reality. I cannot see a heavyweight from the early 1950s and backwards do much damage to these guys of the 90s and today. It's about 40 to 60 pounds weight difference. These guys today average a height of 6'3" or 6'2" the least.

Louis is an all time great to me....He simply whupped the very best of his time, but I cannot see him dominate in the 60s, 70s , 80s , or 90s nor less NOW!!! 8) 8)

[Jaclem]

point one: I have watched louis/max baer on folm projected on my movie screen...i have watched it on a a few tv screens...i have played it in slow motion, regular speed and stop motion. i have watched it many times over the years. max baer opens up on louis early with the full weight of his punches..they are hard and clean...and hit louis squarley and his hands are not up to block them. louis is rattled and obviously hurt for perhaps a second or two. then he comes back with his own barrage and baer goes into his shell for most of the rest of the fight. louis's chin took all the hard punching the powerful baer could throw.

point two: a 250 POUND FOREMAN....he second career weight...would never land one on louis. the bomber was too fast to get hit by them.

point three: smaller heavies vs. the bigger GOOD ones of today is a discussion that is so hypothetical it's virtually impossible to draw a conclusion.

[Sweet Scientist]

I think the only guys who could beat Louis would have to be either:
1. A great boxer with an incredible chin
2. A great puncher with finishing instincts

Guys like Liston or a prime Tyson could have a chance since Louis had a shaky chin but would have to be able to finish the job or Louis would take the out.

Or Boxers like Ali or even Lennox could probably outbox him. But Lewis could not have kept it up and Louis would figure out his style and would chop him down. Ali had speed but if guys like Henry Cooper could catch Ali so could Louis would, who would stop him late. Ali after his three year abscence would suffer the same fate, only earlier.

I think Louis is rated as he should be, one of the best of all time. To me, the 2nd greatest heavyweight ever, behind Jack Johnson, who was a fantastic boxer who toyed with is opponents and could stop them when he wanted and broke the barrier, without him Joe would never have been champ.

Ya know...I don't neccessarily disagree with you...I rate Joe Louis as the best ever...perhaps because it is so hard to accurately assess just how good Jack Johnson really was...the fight films of that era suck...how do you evaluate how good a guy was watching those old, grainy, not quite in 'real time' speed films....seriously, how DO you assess a fighters skills without good film??? Everyone who saw him live is long dead...I rate Johnson around #3 or #4...based on what I've read...I can't rate him on what I've seen...I'm really looking forward to the upcoming Ken Burns documentary...just to see if he came up with some better footage of Johnson...too bad we don't have a time machine, I sure would like to see that guy fight!!!!!!!!

[dempseyfire]

"No, Louis was a 200+ pound heavyweight at his peak. His heaviest weight ever was about 216 for one of his comeback fights in between the Charles and Marciano fights. But does it somehow make you think he was better that he came in ten pounds overweight for his comeback fights, because it makes his heaviest weight higher? I'm sure you think Tua is great too, since he weighs a whole 250 pounds! Wow, that's impressive, huh? He'd clearly beat the crap out of Louis, right?" ------ written by Marciano Frazier

I am not saying that David Tua is great because he weigh 250 or more. But let's be realistic here. Could Louis with only 199 pounds in his prime would've beat TODAY'S GIANTS like Vitali Klitscko, Danny Williams, Ike Ibeabuchi, and former and present fighters like Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, and other guys that weigh in more than 240 lbs???

I admit that Louis probably had better boxing skills than any of them, and to my personal view LOUIS is the GREATEST KO ARTIST OF ALL TIME, but let's look at the weight difference gentlemen??? THESE GUYS TODAY ARE TOO BIG NOW AND CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO BIG FOR THE 1940s and 50s heavys.

Can really Louis take one from Tyson??? Razor Ruddock??? a 260-pound George Foreman??? or Tommy Morrison???

Let's not put the nostalgic memories into play and look at reality. I cannot see a heavyweight from the early 1950s and backwards do much damage to these guys of the 90s and today. It's about 40 to 60 pounds weight difference. These guys today average a height of 6'3" or 6'2" the least.

Louis is an all time great to me....He simply whupped the very best of his time, but I cannot see him dominate in the 60s, 70s , 80s , or 90s nor less NOW!!! 8) 8)

Practically all of those guys had shit for stamina-they were oversized for their body type. Morrison was always gassed by the 5th round. Same with Ruddock, same with fat old Foreman, same with Lennox Lewis (who looked like he was about to collapse at the end of his fights with Tucker, Mercer, and Holyfield 11) and fat David Tua, who if he was in true fighting shape would weigh no more then 215 lbs (which was also Tyson's prime weight). Look at films of Sonny Liston, Jack Dempsey, and Louis when they're fighting during rounds 7, 8, 9 etc. They look virtually as fresh as they did in the early rounds. The HWs of today may be more bulky and bigger but they are almost all slower and there stamina is highly inferior. Virtually all of them are less skilled as well. Punching power doesn't come from weight and bulk-it comes from torque produced by the legs, hips, and shoulders. This is highly reliant on speed of movement. If you take the roids and bench press everyday you will look big but you're body won't be able to produce the punching power it could b/c you are carrying more mass then your body was meant to carry. That's why you have Vitali Klitschko taking 8-10 rounds to TKO guys without even knocking them down after landing his Sunday punches round after round, while the 200 lb Louis was making guys much bigger then him fly across the ring and sending their teeth through their gums.

[Jaclem]

sherlock....i'm not going to get into a discussion on jack johnson's skills.....but your statement that "he paved the way"...and that he made it possible for louis is totally at odds with history. the attitude at the time johnson was champion was so vicious and racists because of his failure to be the "nice yassah darkie"...and especially his relationship with white women was what kept a black fighter from even getting a shot a the heavyweight title for 25 years. louis had to overcome the johnson legacy....he didn't profit from it.

[Sweet Scientist]

....i'm not going to get into a discussion on jack johnson's skills.....

Perhaps at some future date, then....as I'd love to get into a discussion of Jack Johnson's skills...I'm sure interest will rise around here when the documentary about him is released soon....

[Marciano Frazier]

"No, Louis was a 200+ pound heavyweight at his peak. His heaviest weight ever was about 216 for one of his comeback fights in between the Charles and Marciano fights. But does it somehow make you think he was better that he came in ten pounds overweight for his comeback fights, because it makes his heaviest weight higher? I'm sure you think Tua is great too, since he weighs a whole 250 pounds! Wow, that's impressive, huh? He'd clearly beat the crap out of Louis, right?" ------ written by Marciano Frazier

I am not saying that David Tua is great because he weigh 250 or more. But let's be realistic here. Could Louis with only 199 pounds in his prime would've beat TODAY'S GIANTS like Vitali Klitscko, Danny Williams, Ike Ibeabuchi, and former and present fighters like Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, and other guys that weigh in more than 240 lbs???

I admit that Louis probably had better boxing skills than any of them, and to my personal view LOUIS is the GREATEST KO ARTIST OF ALL TIME, but let's look at the weight difference gentlemen??? THESE GUYS TODAY ARE TOO BIG NOW AND CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO BIG FOR THE 1940s and 50s heavys.

Can really Louis take one from Tyson??? Razor Ruddock??? a 260-pound George Foreman??? or Tommy Morrison???

Let's not put the nostalgic memories into play and look at reality. I cannot see a heavyweight from the early 1950s and backwards do much damage to these guys of the 90s and today. It's about 40 to 60 pounds weight difference. These guys today average a height of 6'3" or 6'2" the least.

Louis is an all time great to me....He simply whupped the very best of his time, but I cannot see him dominate in the 60s, 70s , 80s , or 90s nor less NOW!!! 8) 8)

"am not saying that David Tua is great because he weigh 250 or more. But let's be realistic here. Could Louis with only 199 pounds in his prime would've beat TODAY'S GIANTS like Vitali Klitscko, Danny Williams, Ike Ibeabuchi, and former and present fighters like Lennox Lewis, David Tua, Mike Tyson, Buster Douglas, and other guys that weigh in more than 240 lbs???"
Louis has already beaten top heavyweights of this size. Buddy Baer was 6'4, 235 pounds, and Louis beat him twice. Abe Simon was 6'5, 245 pounds, and Louis knocked him out twice. Primo Carnera was a 6'6", 260 pound former world champion, and Louis brutalized him. This concept that he was some little wimp who would get smacked around by anyone fat enough is very puzzling.

"I admit that Louis probably had better boxing skills than any of them, and to my personal view LOUIS is the GREATEST KO ARTIST OF ALL TIME, but let's look at the weight difference gentlemen??? THESE GUYS TODAY ARE TOO BIG NOW AND CERTAINLY WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO BIG FOR THE 1940s and 50s heavys."
There have ALWAYS been heavyweights of this size, and they were never too big. There were plenty of big heavyweights in the 1940's and 50's. Not as many as there are now, but Louis has already beaten several large heavyweight contenders who were easily as good as a lot of the top ten guys of right now and just as big.

"Can really Louis take one from Tyson??? Razor Ruddock??? a 260-pound George Foreman??? or Tommy Morrison???"
Here it is again. You seem to give Foreman extra credit for weighing 260 pounds! He was a disgusting blob! Do you honestly think that it somehow is any form of an advantage to be that fat and out of shape? Foreman was much, MUCH better at 220.
And I think you should be asking "Could those guys take one from Louis?" as well.

"Louis is an all time great to me....He simply whupped the very best of his time, but I cannot see him dominate in the 60s, 70s , 80s , or 90s nor less NOW!!!"
I really can't stand this assumption that everything now is better than it used to be and modern heavyweights can eat nails and crap lightning.

[jezzamundo]

Honestly, I have always believed that rating fighters of one era against those of another is hard enough in lighter weight divisions, but with heavies it is absurd.

Most of the greats of the distant past - Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Charles, Marciano - were cruiserweights or light heavies by todays standards: perhaps talented enough to beat a 41yo Holyfield or a plodder like John Ruiz, or a blown up Light Heavy like Chris Byrd, but too light and weak for someone with the size, strength and power of say Lennox Lewis. Picture Marciano giving away 60lb, seven inches in height and 16 in reach to a man with Lewis' speed and skill. Ali and Holmes were lighter and considerably weaker than Holyfield who was Lewis' smallest serious opponent. Joe Louis would have been to small and fragile to survive the the Lennox Lewis of more than half a century later.

Louis was knocked down ten times in his career and out twice, both times by comparatively small men.

The only feasible way to compare boxers of different decades is in terms of what they managed in their time, with the equipment and technique they had available. In terms of what he accomplished, Louis is easily an all time top five, and possibly as high as a top two.

[dempseyfire]

Honestly, I have always believed that rating fighters of one era against those of another is hard enough in lighter weight divisions, but with heavies it is absurd.

Most of the greats of the distant past - Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Charles, Marciano - were cruiserweights or light heavies by todays standards: perhaps talented enough to beat a 41yo Holyfield or a plodder like John Ruiz, or a blown up Light Heavy like Chris Byrd, but too light and weak for someone with the size, strength and power of say Lennox Lewis. Picture Marciano giving away 60lb, seven inches in height and 16 in reach to a man with Lewis' speed and skill. Ali and Holmes were lighter and considerably weaker than Holyfield who was Lewis' smallest serious opponent. Joe Louis would have been to small and fragile to survive the the Lennox Lewis of more than half a century later.

Louis was knocked down ten times in his career and out twice, both times by comparatively small men.

The only feasible way to compare boxers of different decades is in terms of what they managed in their time, with the equipment and technique they had available. In terms of what he accomplished, Louis is easily an all time top five, and possibly as high as a top two.

You really have a lot to learn. Your 'weak' Larry Holmes, when he was fat and old completly schooled Ray Mercer, who many feel beat Lennox Lewis.
And how is Joe Louis- a 'natural', real HW who trained down to his weight, be weaker then Holyfield who had to pump himself up to get over 200???

The fighters today are not naturally bigger-the height of fighters in the HW division has remained consistent. The weight has balooned b/c of guys not having the discipline the older fighters had. Ray Mercer, who in true fighting condition was less then 220, was beating up Lewis on the inside and completly outjabbed him. He was unable to win decisively b/c he was over 20 lbs overweight and got gassed after each flurry. But Joe Louis, who was slightly taller then Mercer, with the same reach, lighter but in much better condition, who hit harder, was much more skilled all around and had much better defense and stamina, wouldn't have a shot vs Lennox???? A fat old Holmes was able to beat Lewis conqueror McCall and Mercer but in his prime he couldn't stand with Whitaker, Williams, McCline, and these other clowns??? Lewis was gassed by the 6th round against an old Holyfield and some 6'1, 210 Euro champ named Mavoric, yet a monster like Dempsey would have no shot??? Get real . . . .

[jezzamundo]

"You really have a lot to learn. Your 'weak' Larry Holmes, when he was fat and old completly schooled Ray Mercer, who many feel beat Lennox Lewis.
And how is Joe Louis- a 'natural', real HW who trained down to his weight, be weaker then Holyfield who had to pump himself up to get over 200???

The fighters today are not naturally bigger-the height of fighters in the HW division has remained consistent. The weight has balooned b/c of guys not having the discipline the older fighters had. Ray Mercer, who in true fighting condition was less then 220, was beating up Lewis on the inside and completly outjabbed him. He was unable to win decisively b/c he was over 20 lbs overweight and got gassed after each flurry. But Joe Louis, who was slightly taller then Mercer, with the same reach, lighter but in much better condition, who hit harder, was much more skilled all around and had much better defense and stamina, wouldn't have a shot vs Lennox???? A fat old Holmes was able to beat Lewis conqueror McCall and Mercer but in his prime he couldn't stand with Whitaker, Williams, McCline, and these other clowns??? Lewis was gassed by the 6th round against an old Holyfield and some 6'1, 210 Euro champ named Mavoric, yet a monster like Dempsey would have no shot??? Get real . . . ."


Ok, you've kind of got me on the Mercer thing, but I consider that to be one of Lewis's worst performances ever (I score it to Lewis by 1 point), especially his defense which was way below his usual standards.

In his prime Holmes would have destroyed Whitaker, Williams and McCline. I may have been a little too biased on this issue.

If we are comparing people based on there worst performances (as you clearly are with Lewis), then just take a look at some of the fighters who put Joe Louis on the canvas.

I would give Louis the edge against the big plodders of today such as Ruiz, but judging by his record, I believe that even a prime Joe Louis would have trouble with some of the big hitters of recent years, Lewis in particular, who I could only see Louis beating with one big punch, ala McCall or Rahman. Same goes for Dempsey, Johnson, Marciano etc.

[dempseyfire]

"You really have a lot to learn. Your 'weak' Larry Holmes, when he was fat and old completly schooled Ray Mercer, who many feel beat Lennox Lewis.
And how is Joe Louis- a 'natural', real HW who trained down to his weight, be weaker then Holyfield who had to pump himself up to get over 200???

The fighters today are not naturally bigger-the height of fighters in the HW division has remained consistent. The weight has balooned b/c of guys not having the discipline the older fighters had. Ray Mercer, who in true fighting condition was less then 220, was beating up Lewis on the inside and completly outjabbed him. He was unable to win decisively b/c he was over 20 lbs overweight and got gassed after each flurry. But Joe Louis, who was slightly taller then Mercer, with the same reach, lighter but in much better condition, who hit harder, was much more skilled all around and had much better defense and stamina, wouldn't have a shot vs Lennox???? A fat old Holmes was able to beat Lewis conqueror McCall and Mercer but in his prime he couldn't stand with Whitaker, Williams, McCline, and these other clowns??? Lewis was gassed by the 6th round against an old Holyfield and some 6'1, 210 Euro champ named Mavoric, yet a monster like Dempsey would have no shot??? Get real . . . ."


Ok, you've kind of got me on the Mercer thing, but I consider that to be one of Lewis's worst performances ever (I score it to Lewis by 1 point), especially his defense which was way below his usual standards.

In his prime Holmes would have destroyed Whitaker, Williams and McCline. I may have been a little too biased on this issue.

If we are comparing people based on there worst performances (as you clearly are with Lewis), then just take a look at some of the fighters who put Joe Louis on the canvas.

I would give Louis the edge against the big plodders of today such as Ruiz, but judging by his record, I believe that even a prime Joe Louis would have trouble with some of the big hitters of recent years, Lewis in particular, who I could only see Louis beating with one big punch, ala McCall or Rahman. Same goes for Dempsey, Johnson, Marciano etc.

On the contrary, that was Lewis in his absolute prime-he was faster and less plodding in that fight then against Tyson and Rahman. He didn't look as good against Holyfield and Mercer as he did vs the likes of Grant and Botha, b/c frankly Botha and Grant are garbage. They wouldn't have even made the bum of the month tour. And Louis faced punching power (Simon, Schmeling, the Baer Brothers, Nova etc.) as good as anyone around today-Max Baer killed 2 or 3 people in the ring with his punches-what further proof do you need of punching power LOL???
And have you seen a good amount of Louis on film??? To compare him to 3rd tier guys like Rahman and McCall is absurd-Louis would be by FAR the most skilled and fastest HW Lewis had faced, with the closest comparison being a 36 and 37yr old Evander Holyfield, who seemed limited to fighting 40 seconds a round before suffering heart problems . . . .
Holyfield and Holmes both weighed around 210 at their absolute peak, and many who have seen them in those color, HBO boradcasts rightly believe they would clean house (in their prime) in today's HW division. But 'black and weight, grainy' Louis-who only weighed 5-10 lbs less at his peak, but who is generally recognized as the hardest hitting and fastest of that trio, would be out of his league?

If you have time, a real good debate on the larger 'old timer vs modern' argument was made at the CBZ http://p068.ezboard.com/fcyberboxingzon ... 1154.topic

[Sweet Scientist]

Maybe some of you guys (who think today's bigger, heavier fighters are better just because of size.....), haven't seen a truly outstanding, top tier heavyweight for years....like since the early '80's....Larry Holmes was the last really outstanding heavyweight fighter...I haven't seen anything over the last 20 years that could top him at his peak (1978-1982)....

...And as far as Joe Louis goes...you've really got to be mentally challenged if you think any of today's giants would have a chance in hell against him...the bigger they are, the harder they'd fall....