Lets give Wlad some credit.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Sorry, but most of you guys just don't get it.

Let me spell it out: Wladimir needs to be entertaining because outside of Germany - who have some funny ideas of what good entertainment is - no one gives a flying eff and, as the leader of the boxing world, boxing needs a heavyweight champ people do give an eff about.

American TV didn't show it. UK TV picked it up for five quid fifty at the last minute. It is a awful state of affairs for the once "richest prize in sport". Wladimir is like a German pop star, famous in that country but a zero outside it. And it is exactly because of his style, or should I say the style he's had post-Corrie Sanders....

Wladimir is helping to kill boxing and all you marks who say things like "it is down to the other guy to make him fight" etc don't understand how sports promotion works. Boxing is sold as a fight, a competitive prize fight where action and excitment are promised. No-one expects Ali v Frazier I ever fight, but with Wlad's fights he's scared to death of guys leagues below him. And people used to say Lennox Lewis didn't use his physical advantages!

In 9 rounds, against yet another opponent who couldn't hit back, Wlad threw NOT ONE right hook and NOT ONE uppercut. A 6ft 7inch heavyweight champion who NEVER throws uppercuts????

sorry Ant and i understand where you coming from but this is a sport and winning is what counts. If you want sports entertainment watch WWE because i as a boxing fan felt what Wlad did last night was a good nights work. The reason that HBO dont want to show it because there is no interest in the heavies stateside because there arent any. Ok that's a bit harsh as big Chris has made some waves but i would watch Wlad over him every day as Arreola is an over weight lump who looks like he has rolled out of a East LA bar.

Sorry bro, but YOU don't get it.

If all you care about is seeing someone win and someone lose, then bowls offers whole teams of winners and losers for your viewing pleasure every Sunday down the local OAP home.

No, you love boxing because, at it's best, its one of the most exciting sports in the world.

WWE is a soap opera for kids, sports-entertainment. That's not what I am talking about. I'm talking about the urgent need for the sport of boxing to be entertaining. Huge difference.

Exactly - Wlad is damaging the sport because he refuses to fight.

Fine, if he wants to fight without getting hit, but why is anyone going to want to tune in to that. It is boring as hell, and that ain't going to sell tickets in the US. The fact they didn't even buy the fight says it all.

[Autobarn]

Wlad is poor for boxing.

None of us really care that he won. Most of us are desperate for him to lose.

Why was ita big deal when Vitali came back? Because Wlad's fights are so shit.

Some of yu might like his neat straight shots, his refined technique. But the man can't fight. He can fence but he can't fight, and he has devalued the heavyweight crown.

He can shove his "lineal laurels" up his arse for all I care.

WLADIMIR KLITSCHKO - RESTORES THE HEAVYWEIGHT CROWN. God help us.

[forcefraser]

Surely the trick is to find the way to beat him?

If there is no heavyweight out there who can formulate and execute a strategy to beat him, then it states one of two things:

- The Heavyweight division is in a shitter state than even I thought
- He is a boxing genius who can dictate his fight on opponents at will

As stated, I believe the onus is on the opposition to find a way to beat him, as he has obviously found a way to beat them and to his credit he carries it out very well.

He doesn`t need to be entertaining. He gets large crowds paying good money regulary in Germany (admittedly this one sold 60,000 due to the Haye factor).

Boxing is business at the end of the day, how else do you explain Klitchko drawing over 20,000 fans every time he fights, whilst Froch probably had 3,000 people for his last two fights (jointly) and puts on two classics, one of which does not even get a TV slot.

[gobbles]

There's no doubting that Wlad's very effective and excellent at what he does, but there's also no doubting that he's the most boring boxer ever to lace up a pair of gloves. I presume he won on Saturday night.... I fell asleep in the third

I presume you never saw Funso Banjo box

[Goz]

Question is, does Wlad basically just win because he's a big lump in some kind of shape?

That's pretty much what he brings to the party, big.

No ferocious hooks, blinding speed, stella chin etc, just big.

But also a good jab, conditioning (looked great on Saturday) and a powerful straight right. Belshaw brings "Big", but it`s about more than that.

Hmmm, I'm not so sure those attributes work much for Wlad if he's 6ft 2.

I know if you Auntie had balls she'd be your Uncle and you work with what you're given etc etc but it just feels like a big bloke beating up smaller blokes and not much else.

[sharpei_louis]

Rubbish, BigMark and others, you're totally wrong.

Firstly, if boxing isn't entertaining noone watches it, noone gets paid and the sport dies. Simple as that. Yeah for the individual it's about winning but as a fan I need boxing to be well supported to secure it's future. Like it or not competing sports such as MMA are coming through and boxing is at a time when it needs to be entertaining. That's not Wlad's concern, but to become elitist does detract from the overall health of boxing. It's short sighted to not acknowledge that regardless of how much you respect Wlad.
And secondly, yeah it'd be nice if someone in the division had sufficient skill to force Wlad to fight, but that's also a sad indictment of the heavyweight division. And it's not all down to the opposition to make Wlad fight; you don't get true boxing greats sitting back thinking "this guy can't beat me so I'll stay out of trouble" - they take them out early.
If Wlad had thrown uppercuts and body shots he could have taken out Chagaev with little risk, but he didn't, he let it drag on so as to minimise his own chances of getting hit.
Wlad is either capable of throwing these shots but he passed up on every single opportunity to throw them for fear of being hit, or he is incapable of throwing them. Either way he's no boxing genius. If Manny Pac, JMM, PBF, Hopkins, Mosley, Cotto et al all fought in the same way as Wlad, people would simply forget boxing altogether. We watch to see the magic, the beauty of fighting, the art of moving, hitting and not being hit, footwork, skill and variety. Don't insult me by saying I can't understand Wlad's skills - I know what they are. It's just that every fight leaves me frustrated at what he could be with those physical attributes and with what poor opposition is stood in front of him.

And for the record, after watching 225lb 6'1" Chagaev move little and work less, I am shifting more and more to Haye winning vs Wlad. I still have Wlad as slight favourite, but if Haye moves well and rushes in Wlad will absolutely panic, because he has become deskilled in variety and lateral thinking.

[Chambers2]

There's no doubting that Wlad's very effective and excellent at what he does, but there's also no doubting that he's the most boring boxer ever to lace up a pair of gloves. I presume he won on Saturday night.... I fell asleep in the third

I presume you never saw Funso Banjo box

No I missed that 'pleasure'

[rhino222]

Sorry, but most of you guys just don't get it.

Let me spell it out: Wladimir needs to be entertaining because outside of Germany - who have some funny ideas of what good entertainment is - no one gives a flying eff and, as the leader of the boxing world, boxing needs a heavyweight champ people do give an eff about.

American TV didn't show it. UK TV picked it up for five quid fifty at the last minute. It is a awful state of affairs for the once "richest prize in sport". Wladimir is like a German pop star, famous in that country but a zero outside it. And it is exactly because of his style, or should I say the style he's had post-Corrie Sanders....

Wladimir is helping to kill boxing and all you marks who say things like "it is down to the other guy to make him fight" etc don't understand how sports promotion works. Boxing is sold as a fight, a competitive prize fight where action and excitment are promised. No-one expects Ali v Frazier I ever fight, but with Wlad's fights he's scared to death of guys leagues below him. And people used to say Lennox Lewis didn't use his physical advantages!

In 9 rounds, against yet another opponent who couldn't hit back, Wlad threw NOT ONE right hook and NOT ONE uppercut. A 6ft 7inch heavyweight champion who NEVER throws uppercuts????

he did not need too, he won effectively, the idea of the game is to hit and not be hit, wlad is winning these fights inside the distance, against the guys who are on top of the division. he cannot do anymore. if he hangs his chin out he will get tagged, so you play to your strengths, i dont see peter crouch going in for any crunching tackles.....strange that !!

wladimir klitschko is good at what he does, its just the fact that we want a slug fest thats the problem. when klitschko fights people, its the opposition who do not seem to try to beat him, how many times did chagaev weave like ian napa (cant believe im using napa as the model) to get under the jab and then explode big shots from underneath.......errrr........none !! the best shot chagaev threw was after the bell FFS.

its not wlads fault, its the opposition. thats what i liked about the haye match up. we know david would have gone in there throwing bombs from the off, thats what you need to do against klitschko, you need to earn his respect early, and that is by tagging him!! the opponents go in there and think they will have a look and cover up for 3 or 4 rounds and see what klitschko brings to the table, but in that time they have been peppered with the ramrod straight left and already have lost their heart for the battle somewhere behind a bloody nose.

klitschko has a jab, half decent footwork, a straight right, a spoilers clinch when in danger, and a sharp left hook that are top drawer. he brings nothing else to the table apart from physique. surely any trainer in the world can see the way to beat him.

so dont blame wladimir, blame the opponents !!!!.

[Autobarn]

i agre, the trick is for someone to beat him

povetkin, don't wait for a vacant IBF title. break down wlad, you can do it.

[Wales]

[quote="sharpei_louis"]
Either way he's no boxing genius. If Manny Pac, JMM, PBF, Hopkins, Mosley, Cotto et al all fought in the same way as Wlad, people would simply forget boxing altogether. We watch to see the magic, the beauty of fighting, the art of moving, hitting and not being hit, footwork, skill and variety. [quote]

Jeepers, have you seen some of Hopkins' fights, make Wlads jab jab whack look like Ward Gatti.

[Quixall]

Question is, does Wlad basically just win because he's a big lump in some kind of shape?

That's pretty much what he brings to the party, big.

No ferocious hooks, blinding speed, stella chin etc, just big.

But also a good jab, conditioning (looked great on Saturday) and a powerful straight right. Belshaw brings "Big", but it`s about more than that.

Belshaw

[forcefraser]

Question is, does Wlad basically just win because he's a big lump in some kind of shape?

That's pretty much what he brings to the party, big.

No ferocious hooks, blinding speed, stella chin etc, just big.

But also a good jab, conditioning (looked great on Saturday) and a powerful straight right. Belshaw brings "Big", but it`s about more than that.

Belshaw

Meaning that big by no means guarantees success. You need some skills to go with it!

[gobbles]

Er... yeah, I watch boxing to be entertained. You don't want to see KOs? I guess you've got more DVDs of Chris Byrd than Tyson then? Sure you have.

Klitschko is huge star in Germany, but it is a _world_ title and on his watch interest in the division has reached Elton John for pussy levels. Where did the 100million viewers figure come from, exactly? Agree people in boxing are killing it, but as you point out this thread is about Wlad and my view is Wlad is not entertaining.

He's a guy strong enough to pick the ring up and throw it out of the arena (you get my point) but he fights awash with fear. He doesn't have the range of shots a bird in her fourth boxercise class possesses... all he has is a jab and a right hand every 3 rounds. Yeah, that's good enough for 95% of the division, but let's not pretend it would be good enough to earn him a win against Lewis, Mercer, Holyfield, Bowe, Hide, Golota, Tyson, Briggs or any half decent 1990s heavyweight.

i guess then we watch boxing for different reasons because i watch it because i love it as a sport and if a fight ends by KO so be it. However i dont tune in just for the hope of seeing someone sparked.

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.

[DG.]

Jab Jab Jab Jab right hand -repeat x 10!

The most boring high profile fighter ever, the sooner he gets knocked out the better, someone call Ross Purrity!

HBO should NEVER show another Wlad fight unless he is fighting Haye or his Brother.

No idea wht Valuev turned it down, he would would only have to hit WLAD once for it to be over.

Can Wlad throw anything other than a jab right hand? I was reading Boxing News while the foight was one. Yes, I have gone back to SKY - but only because it was 1/2 price for 3 months, after that it's going off!

Also - Friday Shite Night as bad as ever.

[sharpei_louis]

Either way he's no boxing genius. If Manny Pac, JMM, PBF, Hopkins, Mosley, Cotto et al all fought in the same way as Wlad, people would simply forget boxing altogether. We watch to see the magic, the beauty of fighting, the art of moving, hitting and not being hit, footwork, skill and variety.

Jeepers, have you seen some of Hopkins' fights, make Wlads jab jab whack look like Ward Gatti.

I'm a fan of the skill of boxing and defensive fighting too. BHop is boring at times (a lot) but if you reckon he's as one dimensional as Wlad then we're watching a different sport.

[Wales]

I didnt say hopkins was one dimensional, where did i say that? I commented that some of his fights, entertainment wise, made saturdays spectacle look like Gatti Ward. See Eastman, Haakar etc..

For periods a few years back Hopkins DID fight just as negatively as Wlad.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Er... yeah, I watch boxing to be entertained. You don't want to see KOs? I guess you've got more DVDs of Chris Byrd than Tyson then? Sure you have.

Klitschko is huge star in Germany, but it is a _world_ title and on his watch interest in the division has reached Elton John for pussy levels. Where did the 100million viewers figure come from, exactly? Agree people in boxing are killing it, but as you point out this thread is about Wlad and my view is Wlad is not entertaining.

He's a guy strong enough to pick the ring up and throw it out of the arena (you get my point) but he fights awash with fear. He doesn't have the range of shots a bird in her fourth boxercise class possesses... all he has is a jab and a right hand every 3 rounds. Yeah, that's good enough for 95% of the division, but let's not pretend it would be good enough to earn him a win against Lewis, Mercer, Holyfield, Bowe, Hide, Golota, Tyson, Briggs or any half decent 1990s heavyweight.

i guess then we watch boxing for different reasons because i watch it because i love it as a sport and if a fight ends by KO so be it. However i dont tune in just for the hope of seeing someone sparked.

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.

I'd have given Golota a shot definitely. Big, powerful, fast hands, aggressive and a decent chin. He could probably have panicked Wlad and got him out of there. Mercer, again, definitely a chance. He pushed a peak Lewis all the way.

[salaco]

Mercer at his best maybe, he had a decent jab himself. Golota is more likely to have panicked himself, his durability under fire was worse than Klitschkos

[lefthook82]

I think Vlads jab mut be one of the most soul destroying in recent times

I'm sure fighters shave the idea to rush him, slip the jab and force him to fight and that ambition just drains from them when the left hand rams hard into their face

Personally I think Haye would have been the same but unfortunately 'injury' robbed us of the chance to see it

[gobbles]

Mercer at his best maybe, he had a decent jab himself. Golota is more likely to have panicked himself, his durability under fire was worse than Klitschkos

Mercer couldn't cope with the jab of a 42-year-old Larry Holmes. Golota would have had a nervous breakdown.

[finchy36]

I'm setting myself up for a spanking now - so don't be too harsh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Holmes had a good jab - probably the best I've ever seen - in fact my trainer back in the day advised me to watch it as the best example of a jab. But Holmes was boring. Good - but boring. Wlad has a good jab but is boring. OK but boring. Tyson hardly had a jab - but was excellent and exciting (don't buy this overated thing unless you're talking 89 onwards. 86-88 he WAS one of the greats. 88 onwards he lost his way and WAS overated).

Here's my thing. The jab was intended to be a punch that gauged distance and set up the opponent for a bigger shot. But some people have used the jab as their main form of controlling a fight and keeping the opponent at bay. There is nothing wrong with this - the same way Arsenal played the off-side trap so well in the 80's and early 90's. It was effective, stopped the oppostion scoring and won them games. But bloody hell, was it boring!

[finchy36]

can't argue with you there marky - you should be a lawyer! Brilliant with the facts but lacking with emotion! (that isn't a put down by the way) :)

[sharpei_louis]

I'm setting myself up for a spanking now - so don't be too harsh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Holmes had a good jab - probably the best I've ever seen - in fact my trainer back in the day advised me to watch it as the best example of a jab. But Holmes was boring. Good - but boring. Wlad has a good jab but is boring. OK but boring. Tyson hardly had a jab - but was excellent and exciting (don't buy this overated thing unless you're talking 89 onwards. 86-88 he WAS one of the greats. 88 onwards he lost his way and WAS overated).

Here's my thing. The jab was intended to be a punch that gauged distance and set up the opponent for a bigger shot. But some people have used the jab as their main form of controlling a fight and keeping the opponent at bay. There is nothing wrong with this - the same way Arsenal played the off-side trap so well in the 80's and early 90's. It was effective, stopped the oppostion scoring and won them games. But bloody hell, was it boring!

i dont think you are wrong at all as you have to use whats best for you and if that is going to get you the win why wouldnt you? I live in Spain and everyone was having a go at chelsea for the way the played against Barcelona but for me they played the perfect two games of football and were tacticly spot on. Why on earth would chelsea go all out attack against the best attacking side in the world, because it makes no sense and they played to their strengths and should of gone through. OK Chagaev is no Barcelona but Wlad used the right game plan and got the result. If he had gone all out attack he would of increased the odds of losing which makes no sense because he is there to win not entertain wjhile losing.

You are wrong!!! If we're in a court of law... Wlad was the Barcelona in that fight, not the Chelsea. He was the one with the arsenal, not needing to play the defensive game. Barcelona won and went on to win the Champions League with attacking football, not a defensive style. He's Barca with Henry down the left, Messi down the right and only ever plays a long ball to Etoo cause he doesn't want to use Xavi and Iniesta through the middle in case they get caught in possession.
I rest my case!

If Chelsea had Barcelona on the back foot, penned into their own half and then had three or four clear cut goalscoring opportunities but passed when one on one with the keeper, that would be comparable to Wlad.
Chelsea played a decent game but didn't go through - because they didn't take their chances and got punished late on, you're talking like they went through, but they didn't!
I agree with the jab first and safety first style for a few rounds, but after three or four it was obvious to anyone watching that Chagaev was there for the taking with body shots and uppercuts, but Wlad was so safety first he wouldn't risk that. It will be his undoing as stated already the longer he lets his opposition stand in front of him the more chance a random puncher can take him out. Same with Chelsea. They operated a great defensive strategy but in the end it was their undoing because they didn't finish their opposition when they had the chance. I know you'll say but Wlad did finish Chagaev - that's fine, but not as he could and should have done. To continue with the Chelsea analogy, they were extremely unlucky to lose at the death and otherwise would have got plaudits for scraping their win with a defensive style. But surely we would want the World Heavyweight Champ, against much smaller opposition, to be scoring three early goals (KO) and an early night??

If we're giving him credit we're saying 'well done with your limited style'. I'm ok with that. Are you?

[sharpei_louis]

can't argue with you there marky - you should be a lawyer! Brilliant with the facts but lacking with emotion! (that isn't a put down by the way) :)

i'm to emotional to be a lawyer I think as someone who has been watching the sport for such a long time i now look at it more objectively and like to understand why fighters choose certain tactics and game plans. I have to say the recent Hatton- Pacman fight was a perfect example of a fighter following a plan and a fighter not. I am not a huge Hatton fan but am also not a hater but for me that was one of the worst performences by a UK fighter i have ever seen.

And yeah I agree with this comment, Hatton was awful but not sure Manny didn't just react to what was in front of him. As Wlad should have done. Was Wlad's gameplan 'keep jabbing all fight regardless of what happens. Don't throw any shot at all that may mean you come close enough to be hit'?? It should have been 'keep him off and make your distance with the jab, break him down through 3-6 with the straight right and then take him apart with body shots and the uppercut'. But that wasn't his plan. To be honest, a decent trainer would have had him throwing the uppercut early on whenever Chagaev got close, but he didn't. I'd love to see the stats in terms of variety.
And I'm only so critical of a lack of variety as I genuinely believe by mixing up his work he could be looking a p4p fighter and could be a genuine and respectable HW champ.

[Quixall]

i guess then we watch boxing for different reasons because i watch it because

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.[/quote]

I'd have given Golota a shot definitely. Big, powerful, fast hands, aggressive and a decent chin. He could probably have panicked Wlad and got him out of there. Mercer, again, definitely a chance. He pushed a peak Lewis all the way.[/quote]


Klitschko beat Mercer in 2002

Klitschko would beat most of the heavyweights of the 80's and 90's heavyweights, but would'nt have beaten the likes of a prime Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe. Other fighters in their prime years that would have possibly beaten Klitschko would have been Morrison, Tua and Ruddock.