Lets give Wlad some credit.

[Quixall]

I'm setting myself up for a spanking now - so don't be too harsh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Larry Holmes had a good jab - probably the best I've ever seen - in fact my trainer back in the day advised me to watch it as the best example of a jab. But Holmes was boring. Good - but boring. Wlad has a good jab but is boring. OK but boring. Tyson hardly had a jab - but was excellent and exciting (don't buy this overated thing unless you're talking 89 onwards. 86-88 he WAS one of the greats. 88 onwards he lost his way and WAS overated).

Here's my thing. The jab was intended to be a punch that gauged distance and set up the opponent for a bigger shot. But some people have used the jab as their main form of controlling a fight and keeping the opponent at bay. There is nothing wrong with this - the same way Arsenal played the off-side trap so well in the 80's and early 90's. It was effective, stopped the oppostion scoring and won them games. But bloody hell, was it boring!

i dont think you are wrong at all as you have to use whats best for you and if that is going to get you the win why wouldnt you? I live in Spain and everyone was having a go at chelsea for the way the played against Barcelona but for me they played the perfect two games of football and were tacticly spot on. Why on earth would chelsea go all out attack against the best attacking side in the world, because it makes no sense and they played to their strengths and should of gone through. OK Chagaev is no Barcelona but Wlad used the right game plan and got the result. If he had gone all out attack he would of increased the odds of losing which makes no sense because he is there to win not entertain wjhile losing.

I still say that it's more about the level of Klitskcho's opponents, than it is about his skills as a fighter. He has'nt faced a fighter in recent years, who has the style to take him out of his comfort zone and this enables him to continue with his two punch aresenal. The heavyweight scene at the moment is a atrocious and there is no-one out there that has the skills and style to negate Klitschko's very basic approach. This is why i say that Haye is the only fighter who has the attributes to beat Haye, ie, Speed, power, accuracy, combinations and angles. We all know that Haye has the dodgy chin and is as liable to get sparked by a Klitschko's right hand, as he is of knocking out Klitschko with his own right hand, but who else is there ? Can you think of anyone that could give Klitschko a run for his money, apart from Haye ? Povetkin will go the same way as Chagaev and Valuev would get defeated on points. Arreola has'nt the skills to get past Klitschko's jab and will tire and get stopped. Then your back to the Chamber's, Peter's and Thompson's of this world, all fighter's that have had a shot and failed.

[Quixall]

can't argue with you there marky - you should be a lawyer! Brilliant with the facts but lacking with emotion! (that isn't a put down by the way) :)

i'm to emotional to be a lawyer I think as someone who has been watching the sport for such a long time i now look at it more objectively and like to understand why fighters choose certain tactics and game plans. I have to say the recent Hatton- Pacman fight was a perfect example of a fighter following a plan and a fighter not. I am not a huge Hatton fan but am also not a hater but for me that was one of the worst performences by a UK fighter i have ever seen.

And yeah I agree with this comment, Hatton was awful but not sure Manny didn't just react to what was in front of him. As Wlad should have done. Was Wlad's gameplan 'keep jabbing all fight regardless of what happens. Don't throw any shot at all that may mean you come close enough to be hit'?? It should have been 'keep him off and make your distance with the jab, break him down through 3-6 with the straight right and then take him apart with body shots and the uppercut'. But that wasn't his plan. To be honest, a decent trainer would have had him throwing the uppercut early on whenever Chagaev got close, but he didn't. I'd love to see the stats in terms of variety.
And I'm only so critical of a lack of variety as I genuinely believe by mixing up his work he could be looking a p4p fighter and could be a genuine and respectable HW champ.

That is the annoying thing about Wlad. He has the potential to be a really great fighter and definately has the skills set, but he does'nt use them and it's because, as you say, he is safety first, which you can undertand to a degree, because he is slightly chinny. You don't beat people like Austin, Byrd, Botha and Mercer, if you have'nt got a full skill set. I just wish he would be a little looser at times, not so cavalier that he ends up in trouble, but just vary the punches a bit more at critical points in the fight

[jamesmcdonnell]

i guess then we watch boxing for different reasons because i watch it because

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.

I'd have given Golota a shot definitely. Big, powerful, fast hands, aggressive and a decent chin. He could probably have panicked Wlad and got him out of there. Mercer, again, definitely a chance. He pushed a peak Lewis all the way.[/quote]


Klitschko beat Mercer in 2002

Yes, when mercer was 42 years old you douchebag. Mercer was as slow as a statue, and just eat shots for six rounds.

I guess the fact that Ali beat Berbick when Ali was nearly forty means Berbick would have beaten Ali in his prime does it? What an ignoramus.

Were talking about Mercer in his prime, which is about eight years previously when he went the distance with both Lewis and Holyfield.
Klitschko would beat most of the heavyweights of the 80's and 90's heavyweights, but would'nt have beaten the likes of a prime Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe. Other fighters in their prime years that would have possibly beaten Klitschko would have been Morrison, Tua and Ruddock.[/quote]

[Quixall]

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.[/quote]

Amateur boxing is for numpties. Who cares? Audley effing Harrison won Olympic Gold for eff's sake.

Ray Mercer nearly beat Holyfield and nearly KO'd Lennox Lewis but he wouldn't "have a chance" against Wladimir? Are you on drugs or merely having an affair with Wladimir?

If Hide hit Wlad, bye bye Wlad. Or do you think Ross Purity hits harder than Hide? Wlad has been dropped more times than a seat in the Paddington Station public bigs. Hide most likely would have gone over from first big punch, sure, but he hurt Riddick Bowe, who still says Hide hit him hardest in entire career, and Wlad can't take a shot like Bowe could.

Anyway, I'm off to watch the X-Files and listen to Peal Jam and cut holes in my Levellers t-shirt. Viva
1990s![/quote]

[Quixall]

Ant Evans, you state and i quote.....

"Ray Mercer nearly beat Holyfield and nearly KO'd Lennox Lewis but he wouldn't "have a chance" against Wladimir? Are you on drugs or merely having an affair with Wladimir? ....."

Can i remind you that Wladimir Klitschko BEAT Ray Mercer on the 29th June 2002 (TKO 6th)

The guy, unaware of this result, was talking sense, unlike you

[Quixall]

i guess then we watch boxing for different reasons because i watch it because

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.

I'd have given Golota a shot definitely. Big, powerful, fast hands, aggressive and a decent chin. He could probably have panicked Wlad and got him out of there. Mercer, again, definitely a chance. He pushed a peak Lewis all the way.

Klitschko beat Mercer in 2002

Yes, when mercer was 42 years old you douchebag. Mercer was as slow as a statue, and just eat shots for six rounds.

I guess the fact that Ali beat Berbick when Ali was nearly forty means Berbick would have beaten Ali in his prime does it? What an ignoramus.

Were talking about Mercer in his prime, which is about eight years previously when he went the distance with both Lewis and Holyfield.
Klitschko would beat most of the heavyweights of the 80's and 90's heavyweights, but would'nt have beaten the likes of a prime Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe. Other fighters in their prime years that would have possibly beaten Klitschko would have been Morrison, Tua and Ruddock.[/quote][/quote]

Can you get your quotes right......at least

Your main quote, is NOT MY WORDS and yet you have attributed them to me. You have also put half of my quote in amonsgt your own sentance, to make it look like it 's all in one paragraph

You douchebag

All i was saying was the Klitschko did actually beat Ray Mercer and i was commenting on someone that obviously did'nt know that they had fought each other, because he said that Mercer would have a chance.

All the other stuff about age is another debate for another time, Hopkins - Calzaghe, Jones - Calzaghe, Holmes - Tyson blah de blah. Not saying i don't agree with you on the age thing, just that it a different debate. My main point was that if your going to argue a point, at least get some facts straight and the kid i was making a coment upon, clearly did'nt know that Klitsckho (Wlad) had already beaten Mercer.

[Quixall]

Read the effing thread properly James and put the quotes into context, before saying someone is an ignoramous. I highlighted the fact that Wlad had beaten Mercer, because another poster had said that Mercer would have beaten Wlad, because he had nearly knocked out Lennox Lewis. The kid clearly did'nt know that Wlad and Mercer had already fought each other and that Klitschko had won in six rounds.

By your analogy, your saying that i think that McBride and Williams were better fighters than Mike Tyson or that Leon Spinks was better than Frazier and Foreman, becaue he beat Ali. I think your the one that sounds like an ignoramous. Get your facts straight and your quotes in some kind of context to the overall debate and whilst your at it, if your going to quote someone, make sure it's their words that your quoting, which was'nt the case in your last post. You were actually quoting a line of BigMark's and mixed that in with a paragraph from Goggles and yet you attributed both to myself......

[Dioufy]

I really like Wlad, he makes the best of what he's got, and that jab, I could fecking die for. Although I wish some referees would pull him up for resting his left-hand on his oppositions' head and then flicking the jab out. To beat him though, you need to pressure him and not try to walk him down like Chagaev tried to do - he will hit you with that jab all night. I don't think Wlad would last three rounds against a Tyson, Lewis or his brother, but that's just confirmation on how bad this heavyweight division is.

Haye knocks Wlad out though - he would go for the KO and we have all seen it, Wlad hyperventilates when under pressure. Haye would not walk him down, he would go straight after his chin and that's the way to beat Wlad. Power, speed and aggression.

[jamesmcdonnell]

i guess then we watch boxing for different reasons because i watch it because

Anyone who believes Ray Mercer, Herbie Hide, Tyrell Biggs or Andrew Golota would have a chance against Klitschko is living in some sort of deluded fantasy land. Either that, or they are living in the 90s. That is one of the most ridiculous statements I hve ever read.
Chagaev beat Savon twice as an amateur and could not lay a glove on Klitschko. Herbie Hide?! Give me strength. Look what Wlad's brother did to Hide as some sort of obvious guideline to form there.

I'd have given Golota a shot definitely. Big, powerful, fast hands, aggressive and a decent chin. He could probably have panicked Wlad and got him out of there. Mercer, again, definitely a chance. He pushed a peak Lewis all the way.

Klitschko beat Mercer in 2002

Yes, when mercer was 42 years old you douchebag. Mercer was as slow as a statue, and just eat shots for six rounds.

I guess the fact that Ali beat Berbick when Ali was nearly forty means Berbick would have beaten Ali in his prime does it? What an ignoramus.

Were talking about Mercer in his prime, which is about eight years previously when he went the distance with both Lewis and Holyfield.
Klitschko would beat most of the heavyweights of the 80's and 90's heavyweights, but would'nt have beaten the likes of a prime Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and Bowe. Other fighters in their prime years that would have possibly beaten Klitschko would have been Morrison, Tua and Ruddock.

[/quote]

Can you get your quotes right......at least

Your main quote, is NOT MY WORDS and yet you have attributed them to me. You have also put half of my quote in amonsgt your own sentance, to make it look like it 's all in one paragraph

You douchebag

All i was saying was the Klitschko did actually beat Ray Mercer and i was commenting on someone that obviously did'nt know that they had fought each other, because he said that Mercer would have a chance.

All the other stuff about age is another debate for another time, Hopkins - Calzaghe, Jones - Calzaghe, Holmes - Tyson blah de blah. Not saying i don't agree with you on the age thing, just that it a different debate. My main point was that if your going to argue a point, at least get some facts straight and the kid i was making a coment upon, clearly did'nt know that Klitsckho (Wlad) had already beaten Mercer.[/quote]


Oh this has all got a right mess. It was me who said Mercer would have a chance. And of course I knew Mercer had fought him.

I had said Mercer would have a chance, by which I meant that Mercer IN HIS PRIME would have had a chance. Mercer was a shell of what he had been by 2002.

[KirkAndan]

Excellent discussion. Thanks for opening this thread as I found it very interesting.

Simulation pret

[sharpei_louis]

Yeah a good thread with some good arguments and well put points, enjoying it cheers Mark

[Quixall]

Hey james, i actually agree with your comment that Mercer would have had a decent chance at beating Klitschko, when he was in his prime years. I think that overall, there were certainly many more heavyweights in the 80's and 90's who could have given Klitschko a good match up, than is the case at this moment in time.