Classic American West Coast Boxing

[Randyman]

OVER HERE IN MUNICH

Everone speaks English. Listens to American music. U.S. logos on the clothes. Pizza and Bud. What am I doing here? Haven t found a good beer stein yet.

Have a great time over there Rog, and raise the glass for the boys from West Coast Boxing. Oh yeah, Stay out of trouble, no fighting!

Randy DD

[Chuck1052]

Tom, it is probable that I should throw my last post on this thread in the trash heap. It occurred to me that Uncle Tom McCarey had a lot of difficulty finding a viable site for a boxing venue after being unable to continue to stage boxing cards at Hazard's Pavilion starting in late 1904.

For one thing, residents of a number of neighborhoods in Los Angeles didn't want a boxing venue located nearby. Another factor was that it was obvious that that there were members of Los Angeles City Council who didn't want boxing cards staged in the city at the time, which meant that a boxing promoter had little leeway. As a result, McCarey's arena in the Naud Junction area may have been located in one of the very few places in Los Angeles which was somewhat acceptable to both the City Council and the residents.

The bottom line is that it would have been very difficult finding a venue for the Jeffries A.C. in Los Angeles under such circumstances. Moreover, Vernon was a relatively "wide-open" town, which meant that it was much easier to secure permission to stage boxing cards there.

The Jeffries A.C. did have one card which was quite successful. It featured Stanley Ketchell and Billy Papke in the main event.

-Chuck Johnston

[bennie]

Daughter of a Champion
By Michele Chong


Former WBC Champ Paul Banke’s Pride and Joy
In the sports world, there are many famous fathers who swell with pride over their younger namesakes: boxing’s Julio Cesar Chavez and Julio Cesar Chavez Jr., Ken Norton and football’s Ken Norton Jr., George Foreman and his five sons all named George, and Paul and Paula Banke. That’s right, boxer Paul Banke’s “junior” namesake is his only daughter, Paula.

Married three times, Paul has three children and one grandchild: Marty, Paula and Bobby Jay. His oldest son, Marty, recently became a parent himself with the birth of Chloe Madison earlier this year. But Paul has always had a soft spot for his sole daughter, and he lights up whenever I ask about her or mention that I’ve spoken to her. And of course, he is like any other dad, protective of his youngster while oftentimes amazed at how grown up she is.

As you can imagine, Paula, a bubbly 19-year-old, is the apple of her father’s eye.

Paul maintains good relationships with all of his kids, but clearly it’s Paula that is the one he tries to please the most. She’s a beautiful girl with an outgoing personality, a twinkle in her eye and a winning smile. But Paul takes no credit for his daughter’s charismatic ways, “She’s like her mom–she’s all of her mom!” he laughs. “And with my boys, I can joke and B.S. but with Paula, I have to be on my ‘Ps and Qs.’ She’s tough on me!” He also wants to meet and “approve” any boy she’s dating. Paula jokingly groans and says, “He’s always asking me about that!” The father-daughter dynamics with that can never be easy!

And it has not been an easy for the former WBC Super Bantamweight Champion (21-9, 11 KOs). The scrappy southpaw has a well-chronicled history of trouble, and the risks he took during his youth have also been well-documented. Obviously, there are regrets and disappointment over his reckless past.

Paul, who was diagnosed with the HIV virus in the ’90s, never thought he’d be around long enough to see his kids become adults. But Banke never blames anyone else; he knows he’s responsible for his current circumstances. “I lived in the fast lane, I was young and crazy,” he acknowledges. Clean and sober for 15 years now, the 45-year-old has been making amends, trying to be a supportive father, and also giving back to the community through mentoring underprivileged children.

Now let’s get to Miss Paula Banke. The petite, pretty teen knows of her dad’s struggles in life and has taken a mature stance in welcoming him back into her life. “I don’t know how long he’ll be around,” she tells me. “I think he regrets not being here more when we were kids; I want him to know I forgive him and still love him.” And as it sometimes happens when a parent grows older or ill, the child often becomes the parent.


Banke lives in Hollywood with his beloved dog, Rosemary, and seven parakeets. The Scotch-Terrier poodle is the only other female besides Paula who shares Paul’s heart. He is very attached to the pooch and takes her for frequent walks outside, either in Hollywood or Venice Beach where his mother resides. And Paula, sometimes wise beyond her years, always worries about her dad; these late-night walks are what gives her some concern. “I worry about him and when he walks his dog at night,” she tells me. “I always make sure he’s bundled up. I want to take care of him, but he doesn’t always let me.”

No family is ever perfect, and Paul has had his share of squabbles with his brother, Steve, also a former boxer, and at-times with his own children including Paula.

Forgiving and forgetting the sins of the father can be a rocky road.

But Paula has chosen to forgive and forget. This past March, to celebrate her birthday and to honor her father, Paula surprised her dad with a special gift: A tattoo to pay tribute to her connection to boxing and to her favorite champ, her father. Paula designed the ink herself–two red boxing gloves hanging from a nail, forming a heart with a banner that reads “Daughter of a Champ.” This new artwork, located on her lower back, is a symbol for what they’ve been through, as Paula explains, “I had been thinking about if for a long time. It’s been a long process with my Dad. But I always wanted to get a tattoo to show him that he’s in my heart.” A permanent bond to her prizefighting father.

Paul has several tats of his own; the last time I saw him, a tattoo on the back of his neck caught my eye. I couldn’t read it clearly, so I asked him about it and he laughed, “It’s the name of my last ex-wife!” He admits he went down a wayward path with women, drugs and booze. But while there is always a lingering sense of regret of money he may have squandered, and his health that he obviously put in jeopardy, Paul doesn’t want to be bitter, angry or resentful.

Each time I speak to him, Banke peppers the conversation with the same words: Blessed, Fortunate, Lucky, Grateful. Not exactly what you’d expect from an ex-fighter who’s been down for the count more times than not. Three failed marriages, a broken family, life-threatening health issues, and yet he still insists he’s blessed. Factor in severe bouts with insomnia, growing problems with his speech…and again he’ll tell how fortunate he is. Banke feels lucky and grateful to be here–and to be given second chances with his children.

Paul repeats how blessed he is, “I live in Hollywood, I ride the bus, and I got problems and issues just like everyone else. But I’m still a humble person. Sometimes I think I got it bad, but I appreciate everything,” he says. “I have a nice apartment and I have side jobs. I’m not struggling, and I’m thankful. It’s a blessing to live this long. I’ve had this virus for more than 15 years. And to have seen my daughter graduate from high school is a blessing!”

The former champ recalls one of his lowest times,”I was on the streets; I did my drug thing. For four days I didn’t eat; this was in Vegas at four o’clock in the morning. I called my mom but she thought I’d use money for drugs, so I went to a Burger King and looked around for food left behind.”


That was then. Now happily ensconced in a bright, airy, and clean apartment just east of the tourist section of Hollywood, Paul is able to provide not only himself, but for his prized canine and his seven fine-feathered friends. I recently visited with Banke. When I entered the neat and tidy living room, the smell of steak wafted from the kitchen. “Rosemary and I just had lunch,” Paul happily states. “Your dog gets steak too?” I asked. “She loves it!” he replied with a grin.

As I reached out to pet the adorable dog, who’s very protective of her master, she softly growled. “Rosemary has issues!’ Paul exclaimed as we chuckled.

To stay in shape, he runs twice a day with the pup and also tries to work out regularly. “I can do heavy bags at home. And I love working out with the mitts. At the gym, it’s either the focus mitts or sparring when I work out.”

Gazing around his comfortable home, decorated with several plants thriving in the sun, I notice many family photographs on display, but not any boxing mementos except for his bronze trophy he received as a 2008 inductee from the WBC Legends of Boxing Museum. I ask Banke if he ever misses being in the ring. He winces a bit, looks at me like I’m from another planet, then without further hesitation says, “No, not at all! I don’t miss being in the ring at all. But I understand why some boxers can’t quit. They miss that fire, so they keep coming back.”

While the former amateur star does not miss being on the canvas himself, he has been working with kids at a nearby gym. “They appreciate me and call me ‘Coach’ and I like that. It feels good. I’ve been taking them to Freddie Roach’s gym; they loved it,” Paul raves. “The kids remember everything I taught them. They looked good, so I looked good!”

Banke recalls his own roots in the amateur boxing circuit and the early fame he achieved. “As an amateur, I got to visit 12 countries. I boxed in the L.A. Coliseum in front of thousands of people. When I was 16 years old, I got to go to Russia and fight. It was on the ABC ‘World Wide of Sports.’ I beat the Russian, I still remember his name and everything about it. I felt like a celebrity! I was just a little, skinny 112 pounder in high school and it was so exciting.

“I had 176 fights and started when I was just 12 years old. By the time I was 14, I got to fight in New Mexico and by 15 and 16 went to Ohio and New Zealand to fight. I loved the amateurs!”

Born in Quail Valley, California, Banke says people always ask about his heritage because of his exotic looks and unique last name. He’s Mexican-American from the Basque country. His last name has been pronounced myriad of ways but he pronounces it “BANK-E” will a long A. Although, he recalls during his early career, “Jimmy Lennon Sr. used to pronounce it ‘Ban-kay’ with a French accent and it always sounded so nice!”

Banke loved to travel and he regales me with several stories of past adventures. He also chats about his long-standing friendships with boxers he’s known for years, “I was in Thailand for two weeks with Reggie Johnson; it was great. I’ve known James Toney since our amateur days. And I still talk to Alex Ramos, John Montes and Zack Padilla. I’m lucky to stay in touch with them!”

Turning pro at age 21, Paul remembers his career highlight of winning a title belt earned in his two legendary wars with Daniel Zaragoza, “My world title was the best, the highlight of my pro career.” Banke lost the first battle by a split decision. But just ten months later earned his title by a KO over Zaragoza in the ninth round. The two fought once more in 1991.

After indulging in the excesses of sudden fame and notoriety, Paul now finds himself in a very different fate with very different circumstances. But one thing remains the same, Banke’s mantra is that he feels like his life, even as it is now, is a blessing.

“I’m blessed,” he reiterates. “I see on TV how people lose their houses and their jobs. I live in a nice neighborhood. My health is okay; I’m a little crazy, but we all know that!” Paul jokes a little more and then quietly says, “It’s embarassing but I think my speech is getting worse. It bothers me. But I talk fast, I love to talk, and I’m hyper…So maybe it’s that?” His voice then trails off a bit.

I mention to Banke that I haven’t noticed a decline, but he’s not convinced. “Sometimes it’s good. It’s better in the morning, and sometimes it’s bad,” Paul says of his mildly-slurred speech, probably due to one too many blows in the ring.

But there is no need to feel sorry for Paul; he does not want pity. That becomes very clear when you spend any time with him. After all, this man is a champion. He doesn’t want or need sympathy; the former warrior has a newfound sense of pride and dignity in the way he lives his life now.

A poignant reminder of this is the one title he continues to fight for: Championship Father and Grandfather.

“I see him as much as possible when I’m not working,” says daughter Paula. She lives in San Bernardino County and tries to spend as much time as she can with her dad. The energetic teen maintains a busy schedule with both college and work. Her dad is awed by how she handles responsibility and says proudly, “Paula has a brand new car. She’s had a job for four years now; I’m always amazed of her!” When I agree with Paul on what a great gal she is, he jokes, “Of course she’s great, she’s my daughter!”

Fittingly, I spoke with both of them this past weekend on Father’s Day, and before signing off, Paul Banke wants to say again, “Thank you for calling. I’m so blessed. I’m lucky to have friends and family.”

While there are many famous sons of legendary boxers, this story is about one daughter, Paula Banke, who until now you may not have ever heard of.

But now you know who she is: She is the Daughter of a Champion.

Photos by Michele Chong: Paula Banke with her father; Paul with Scotch-Terrier Rosemary; “Daughter of a Champ” ink

Great piece. I always liked Banke's style: aggressive yet not reckless. How the Hell did Zaragoza beat him in the third fight! Banke really did a long, slow number on him in the second, and the finishing shot was fantastic.

[dagosd2000]

NOTES FROM ABROAD

Never thought I d say it,but I ve eaten so much sausage ,that I ll never laugh at a Porky Pig cartoon again. The beer? Drank a few at a local joint where there ain t any tourists. Blue collar guys getting off work enjoying a drink and watching sports on TV (soccer). Asked what was the favorite. maybe some of you world travelers know this one:Lagerbei Hell. They said it s the best beer in Munich. No chemicals. Clean. Very strong. 5.2%. It was the best beer I ever drank. No head this morning.Put s you in heaven when you drink it though. Camera went down in a spot called Mozartness. In the Bavarian Alps. I think we were still in Germany. Breathtaking is an understatement. Will use Amanda s camera. Hope she got some good shots. Went to Salzburg Austria,Mozart s birthplace. Tried to say hello to the old master,but he s dead. Ciao.Rog

[kikibalt]

NOTES FROM ABROAD

Never thought I d say it,but I ve eaten so much sausage ,that I ll never laugh at a Porky Pig cartoon again. The beer? Drank a few at a local joint where there ain t any tourists. Blue collar guys getting off work enjoying a drink and watching sports on TV (soccer). Asked what was the favorite. maybe some of you world travelers know this one:Lagerbei Hell. They said it s the best beer in Munich. No chemicals. Clean. Very strong. 5.2%. It was the best beer I ever drank. No head this morning.Put s you in heaven when you drink it though. Camera went down in a spot called Mozartness. In the Bavarian Alps. I think we were still in Germany. Breathtaking is an understatement. Will use Amanda s camera. Hope she got some good shots. Went to Salzburg Austria,Mozart s birthplace. Tried to say hello to the old master,but he s dead. Ciao.Rog

Mr. & Mrs. Porky Pig

[iskigoe]

NOTES FROM ABROAD

Never thought I d say it,but I ve eaten so much sausage ,that I ll never laugh at a Porky Pig cartoon again. The beer? Drank a few at a local joint where there ain t any tourists. Blue collar guys getting off work enjoying a drink and watching sports on TV (soccer). Asked what was the favorite. maybe some of you world travelers know this one:Lagerbei Hell. They said it s the best beer in Munich. No chemicals. Clean. Very strong. 5.2%. It was the best beer I ever drank. No head this morning.Put s you in heaven when you drink it though. Camera went down in a spot called Mozartness. In the Bavarian Alps. I think we were still in Germany. Breathtaking is an understatement. Will use Amanda s camera. Hope she got some good shots. Went to Salzburg Austria,Mozart s birthplace. Tried to say hello to the old master,but he s dead. Ciao.Rog

Mr. & Mrs. Porky Pig

This reminds me of a sign the town of Myrtle Beach SC made Hooters take down.
It read " The only one getting a better piece of chicken.. is a rooster".

KI

[raylawpc]

NOTES FROM ABROAD

Never thought I d say it,but I ve eaten so much sausage ,that I ll never laugh at a Porky Pig cartoon again. The beer? Drank a few at a local joint where there ain t any tourists. Blue collar guys getting off work enjoying a drink and watching sports on TV (soccer). Asked what was the favorite. maybe some of you world travelers know this one:Lagerbei Hell. They said it s the best beer in Munich. No chemicals. Clean. Very strong. 5.2%. It was the best beer I ever drank. No head this morning.Put s you in heaven when you drink it though. Camera went down in a spot called Mozartness. In the Bavarian Alps. I think we were still in Germany. Breathtaking is an understatement. Will use Amanda s camera. Hope she got some good shots. Went to Salzburg Austria,Mozart s birthplace. Tried to say hello to the old master,but he s dead. Ciao.Rog

Good luck trying to find ole' Wolfgang in Salzburg; he's buried someplace in the St. Marx Cemetery in Vienna (except maybe for his head):

An Unknown Grave
Although Mozart is buried somewhere in Vienna's St. Marx cemetery, the exact location is unknown; the current monument and 'grave' are the results of an educated guess. Unfortunately, the circumstances of the composer's burial, and the lack of any definite grave, has led to great confusion, including the common belief that Mozart was dumped into a mass grave for paupers. This view stems from a misinterpretation of funerary practices in eighteenth century Vienna.

Mozart's Burial
Mozart died on December 5th 1791. Records show that he was sealed in a wooden coffin and buried in a plot along with 4 - 5 other people; a wooden marker was used to identify the grave. Although this is the kind of burial modern readers may associate with poverty, it was actually the standard practice for middle income families of the time. The burial of groups of people in one grave was organised and dignified, differing greatly from the images of large open pits now synonymous with the term 'mass grave'.
Mozart may not have died rich, indeed he may have been relatively poor, but friends and admirers came to his widow's aid, helping her pay debts and funeral costs. Large graveside gatherings and grand funerals were discouraged in Vienna during this period, hence Mozart's simple burial, but a church service was certainly held in his honour.

The Grave Is Moved
At this point, Mozart had a grave; however, at some stage during the next 5 - 15 years 'his' plot was dug up to make room for more burials. The bones were re-interred, possibly having been crushed to reduce their size; consequently, the position of Mozart's grave was lost. Again, modern readers may associate this activity with the treatment of pauper's graves, but it was common practice. Some historians have suggested that the story of Mozart's 'paupers' burial was first encouraged, if not partly started, by the composer's widow, Constanze, who used the tale to provoke public interest in her husband's work, and her own performances of it.

Mozart's Skull?
There is, however, one final twist. In the early twentieth century the Salzburg Mozarteum was presented with a rather morbid gift: Mozart's skull. It was alleged that a gravedigger had rescued the skull during the 're-organisation' of the composer's grave. Although scientific testing has been unable to either confirm or deny that the bone is Mozart's, there is enough evidence on the skull to determine a cause of death (chronic haematoma), which would be consistent with Mozart's symptoms before death. Several medical theories about the exact cause of Mozart's demise - another great mystery surrounding him - have been developed using the skull as evidence.

[Rick Farris]

NOTES FROM ABROAD

Never thought I d say it,but I ve eaten so much sausage ,that I ll never laugh at a Porky Pig cartoon again. The beer? Drank a few at a local joint where there ain t any tourists. Blue collar guys getting off work enjoying a drink and watching sports on TV (soccer). Asked what was the favorite. maybe some of you world travelers know this one:Lagerbei Hell. They said it s the best beer in Munich. No chemicals. Clean. Very strong. 5.2%. It was the best beer I ever drank. No head this morning.Put s you in heaven when you drink it though. Camera went down in a spot called Mozartness. In the Bavarian Alps. I think we were still in Germany. Breathtaking is an understatement. Will use Amanda s camera. Hope she got some good shots. Went to Salzburg Austria,Mozart s birthplace. Tried to say hello to the old master,but he s dead. Ciao.Rog

Rog . . . Glad you and the family are having a good time.
I know a few places where I can get rare imported beer and will see if I can find Lagerbei Hell.
I don't know if it's available here but I'm going to check.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

Norm the Cop and the King of Pop . . .


Reading Hap Navarro's childhood memories of waiting by the entrance to the Olympic dressing room as a kid, brought back a flood of my own personal memories hanging out in the same place. A few decades may have seperated our experience, but my interest and excitment was likely on the same level as the future California Boxing Hall of Famer.

In the mid-60's, we entered the back door closer to the dressing rooms on the West side of the building. This was the door most of the boxers choose to enter the arena for as it was right of the parking lot and closest to the dressing area.

I was never permitted to enter the dressing room, but I made sure I was there before the first prelim boys made their exit to the ring.
There were actually two entrances to the dressing room area, both were seperated by a stairway that led up to the main arena. One of the extrances was blocked off by thick gate and a cover. The other was open, but was guarded by an Los Angeles Policeman whom I would come to know as "Norm".

I was about twelve when Norm first saw my face as I leaned against the wall, having positioned myself to be right where the fighters woud brush right past me as they left the dressing room, or returned after their match.
I would was barely inches from my idols, Jerry Quarry, Mando Ramos, Dwight Hawkins, and some of the world class out-of-towners who would invade L.A. and attempt to end the dreams of our L.A. Superstars.

I remember being by that dressing room door within moments of Jerry Quarry's first pro loss to Eddie Machen, after "Irish" Frankie Crawford scored a huge upset of the upcoming future lightweight champ, Mando Ramos. I remember congratulting Ernie "Indian" Red Lopez KOed Hedgeman Lewis. Sonny Liston brushed pass me after flattening Al Jones. These are just a few incidents. There were many, many more and I soon became a recognizable face to the dressing room guard, "Norm the Cop."

Eventually Norm and I would exchange some talk and I told him my goal was to a pro fighter and one day.
Several years later, I backed up my words and as I entered the Olympic dressing room to dress for my first pro fight, the first face I saw was Norm.
He grabbed me by the arm and pointed to a couple small boys standing by the dressing room entrance holding pen & paper, for autographs.
"Do you remember that kid?" he asked.
I told him I didn't recognize the boy.
"That was you five years ago. You got your wish kid, good luck tonight."

My next nine fights would be held at the Olympic, and Norm was there for each one.
After that, fought primarily for Parnassus, Don Fraser or Mickey Davies. I didn't see Norm the Cop again for several years.

My boxing career was finished after a few years and I went to work as a motion picture lighting technician.
In the later 80's, I'm working on a Michael Jackson music video, "Thriller".
We are shooting in downtown L.A. all night long for a couple of weeks, right off of Union Pacific Ave.not far from the old Teamsters Gym.

After we finish lighting the set, Michael Jackson is brought from his motor home dressing room to rehearse the first shot with actress Ola Ray.
Jackson has very tight security and is usually escorted to and from the set by two off-duty LAPD officers.
Jackson's security consultant was in plain clothes, as were the officers. It took me about two seconds to recognize "Norm the Cop", in plain clothes leading Jackson and the other two officers to the set.

In the two Michael Jackson features I worked on, Thriller and Moonwalker, Norm the Cop was right be his side every moment he was off-camera.
I know that Norm did some work for the California State Athletic Commission for a time.

During the shots when Norm and I could speak, we shared a few good memories about the good old days at 18th & Grand.
Hap's story about the Olympic dressing room brought this one to mine.


-Rick Farris

[Dongee]

Rick:

One of the salient things I remember about the star bout fighters emerging from the auditorium through that dressing room exit/entrance was the total class they exuded, dressed to the nines, complete with topcoats, hats and gloves in the winter months. Guys like Speedy Dado, Baby Arizmendi, Baby Face Casanova, and one of my earliest idols, Sandy Garrison Casanova looked more like movie celebs than prizefighters. I think those days, too, are gone forever, although I notice that the L.A. Lakers still look like fashion models in street clothes.

hap navarro

[kikibalt]

Norm the Cop and the King of Pop . . .


Reading Hap Navarro's childhood memories of waiting by the entrance to the Olympic dressing room as a kid, brought back a flood of my own personal memories hanging out in the same place. A few decades may have seperated our experience, but my interest and excitment was likely on the same level as the future California Boxing Hall of Famer.

In the mid-60's, we entered the back door closer to the dressing rooms on the West side of the building. This was the door most of the boxers choose to enter the arena for as it was right of the parking lot and closest to the dressing area.

I was never permitted to enter the dressing room, but I made sure I was there before the first prelim boys made their exit to the ring.
There were actually two entrances to the dressing room area, both were seperated by a stairway that led up to the main arena. One of the extrances was blocked off by thick gate and a cover. The other was open, but was guarded by an Los Angeles Policeman whom I would come to know as "Norm".

I was about twelve when Norm first saw my face as I leaned against the wall, having positioned myself to be right where the fighters woud brush right past me as they left the dressing room, or returned after their match.
I would was barely inches from my idols, Jerry Quarry, Mando Ramos, Dwight Hawkins, and some of the world class out-of-towners who would invade L.A. and attempt to end the dreams of our L.A. Superstars.

I remember being by that dressing room door within moments of Jerry Quarry's first pro loss to Eddie Machen, after "Irish" Frankie Crawford scored a huge upset of the upcoming future lightweight champ, Mando Ramos. I remember congratulting Ernie "Indian" Red Lopez KOed Hedgeman Lewis. Sonny Liston brushed pass me after flattening Al Jones. These are just a few incidents. There were many, many more and I soon became a recognizable face to the dressing room guard, "Norm the Cop."

Eventually Norm and I would exchange some talk and I told him my goal was to a pro fighter and one day.
Several years later, I backed up my words and as I entered the Olympic dressing room to dress for my first pro fight, the first face I saw was Norm.
He grabbed me by the arm and pointed to a couple small boys standing by the dressing room entrance holding pen & paper, for autographs.
"Do you remember that kid?" he asked.
I told him I didn't recognize the boy.
"That was you five years ago. You got your wish kid, good luck tonight."

My next nine fights would be held at the Olympic, and Norm was there for each one.
After that, fought primarily for Parnassus, Don Fraser or Mickey Davies. I didn't see Norm the Cop again for several years.

My boxing career was finished after a few years and I went to work as a motion picture lighting technician.
In the later 80's, I'm working on a Michael Jackson music video, "Thriller".
We are shooting in downtown L.A. all night long for a couple of weeks, right off of Union Pacific Ave.not far from the old Teamsters Gym.

After we finish lighting the set, Michael Jackson is brought from his motor home dressing room to rehearse the first shot with actress Ola Ray.
Jackson has very tight security and is usually escorted to and from the set by two off-duty LAPD officers.
Jackson's security consultant was in plain clothes, as were the officers. It took me about two seconds to recognize "Norm the Cop", in plain clothes leading Jackson and the other two officers to the set.

In the two Michael Jackson features I worked on, Thriller and Moonwalker, Norm the Cop was right be his side every moment he was off-camera.
I know that Norm did some work for the California State Athletic Commission for a time.

During the shots when Norm and I could speak, we shared a few good memories about the good old days at 18th & Grand.
Hap's story about the Olympic dressing room brought this one to mine.


-Rick Farris

Great story on the Olympic dressing entrance, I too used to wait for the fighters come out on their way to the ring when I was kid, late 1940's-early 1950's

[Rick Farris]

Rick:

One of the salient things I remember about the star bout fighters emerging from the auditorium through that dressing room exit/entrance was the total class they exuded, dressed to the nines, complete with topcoats, hats and gloves in the winter months. Guys like Speedy Dado, Baby Arizmendi, Baby Face Casanova, and one of my earliest idols, Sandy Garrison Casanova looked more like movie celebs than prizefighters. I think those days, too, are gone forever, although I notice that the L.A. Lakers still look like fashion models in street clothes.

hap navarro

Hap . . . From pictures I've seen and stories I've heard, fighters used to be well dressed. They had that look of class.
Recently I was reading about Keeny Teran, and learned that he was always a sharp dresser, even years after his career had ended.
IT really says a lot about a boxer, I believe.


-Rick Farris

[kikibalt]

Rick:

One of the salient things I remember about the star bout fighters emerging from the auditorium through that dressing room exit/entrance was the total class they exuded, dressed to the nines, complete with topcoats, hats and gloves in the winter months. Guys like Speedy Dado, Baby Arizmendi, Baby Face Casanova, and one of my earliest idols, Sandy Garrison Casanova looked more like movie celebs than prizefighters. I think those days, too, are gone forever, although I notice that the L.A. Lakers still look like fashion models in street clothes.

hap navarro

Hap . . . From pictures I've seen and stories I've heard, fighters used to be well dressed. They had that look of class.
Recently I was reading about Keeny Teran, and learned that he was always a sharp dresser, even years after his career had ended.
IT really says a lot about a boxer, I believe.


-Rick Farris

Rick, Keeny was a sharp dresser, most of the fighters from the 1940s-50s-60s that I remember were sharp dressers, so was Mando Ramos.

[Dongee]

In the early 1930s Baby Arizzmendi was the best dresser I saw come out of the Olympic after a fight. The snappiest dressers, because I believe they introduced the English drape style in southern California, were the Filipino fighters
Somewhere I have a shot of Star Frisco with Little Pancho at the old Main St. Gym, in street clothes, both dressed to kill.

hap navarro

[Rick Farris]

Rick:

One of the salient things I remember about the star bout fighters emerging from the auditorium through that dressing room exit/entrance was the total class they exuded, dressed to the nines, complete with topcoats, hats and gloves in the winter months. Guys like Speedy Dado, Baby Arizmendi, Baby Face Casanova, and one of my earliest idols, Sandy Garrison Casanova looked more like movie celebs than prizefighters. I think those days, too, are gone forever, although I notice that the L.A. Lakers still look like fashion models in street clothes.

hap navarro

Hap . . . From pictures I've seen and stories I've heard, fighters used to be well dressed. They had that look of class.
Recently I was reading about Keeny Teran, and learned that he was always a sharp dresser, even years after his career had ended.
IT really says a lot about a boxer, I believe.


-Rick Farris

Rick, Keeny was a sharp dresser, most of the fighters from the 1940s-50s-60s that I remember were sharp dressers, so was Mando Ramos.

You right about Mando, Frank. He always looked sharp at the Olympic when he'd step up for a ring introduction.
Like a champion he was.


-Rick Farris

[Rick Farris]

In the early 1930s Baby Arizzmendi was the best dresser I saw come out of the Olympic after a fight. The snappiest dressers, because I believe they introduced the English drape style in southern California, were the Filipino fighters
Somewhere I have a shot of Star Frisco with Little Pancho at the old Main St. Gym, in street clothes, both dressed to kill.

hap navarro

Hap . . . I'm not familiar with the English drape style, however, I have seen a few photos of some very snappy dressed Filippino boxers here and there.


-Rick Farris

[Dongee]

The English drape, if memory serves, had a moderate higher waist on the trousers and a slightly wider knee, but narrower cuffs. I wore those clothes as a young man.

hap navarro

[Chuck1052]

It is my understanding that many California-based Filipino farmworkers and serviceworkers "dressed to kill" in McIntosh suits when "going out on the town" despite making modest wages at best during the 1920s and 1930s. Unfortunately, the welcome mat wasn't out for Filipinos in many California cities and towns, which meant it was very difficult for them to get any attention from females unless the women were prostitutes or dancers working in taxi dance halls. A big problem is that in California during 1930, Filipino males outnumbered Filipinas by a ratio of 13-to-1.

- Chuck Johnston

[kikibalt]

2008 Prospect of the Year Victor Ortiz (Left), Golden Boy Promotions President Oscar de la Hoya (Center) and Top Super Lightweight Contender Marcos Maidana (Right) pose on June 26, 2009 in Los Angeles, California at the weigh-in for Ortiz and Maidana’s June 27, 2009 world championship bout at STAPLES Center in Los Angeles which will be televised on HBO Boxing After Dark. Photo by Gene Blevins – Hoganphotos/Golden Boy Promotions

[kikibalt]

Argentina’s Maidana stuns Victor Ortiz
By GREG BEACHAM AP Sports Writer

LOS ANGELES(AP)—Marcos Maidana stopped Victor Ortiz early in the sixth round of an action-packed fight Saturday night, using a punishing right hand to upset one of boxing’s top prospects.

Maidana (26-1, 25 KOs), a 140-pound Argentine who fights mostly in Germany, was knocked down three times in the opening two rounds of his first fight in this country. Yet Maidana also flattened Ortiz in the first round, and he steadily landed punches until Ortiz finally was forced to stop, his face badly cut and terribly swollen.

“I went down, but I got up because I have a big heart,” Maidana said. “I saw that Victor felt my punches, and I said, ‘I know I can win this.”’

Ortiz (24-2-1) was the most promising youngster in Golden Boy Promotions’ stable of up-and-coming fighters, but the Kansas native couldn’t maintain his aggressive early pace and took far too many big shots. After he was rendered unsteady and bloody from the final knockdown, the ringside doctor stopped the fight.

Ortiz had knocked out his last eight opponents, but the talkative fighter was left practically speechless by Maidana’s power and resilience. He finished with a large cut near his right eye and a badly damaged left eye.

“I don’t know what happened,” he said. “I wasn’t in the zone tonight. He packs some power behind those punches. I usually keep composed, and tonight I wasn’t. … I made some mistakes. I wanted to take my time and finish him, but I was hurt.”

Ortiz connected on 42 percent of his 177 punches. Maidana was much busier with 293 punches, connecting with 23 percent.

Maidana incurred his only loss in February on a split decision against Andreas Kotelnik. Maidana felt robbed by sketchy judging that favored Kotelnik, who lives in Germany - and he left nothing to the scorecards against Ortiz.

Ortiz couldn’t live up to the expectations of an enthusiastic crowd supporting him in his first main-event bout at Staples Center, near his adopted Southern California home. Ortiz had never headlined a card in such a large venue, but Oscar De La Hoya was eager to turn him into a star.

Both fighters moved forward furiously from the opening bell, and Ortiz knocked down Maidana for the first time on a big right hand with about 1:15 left. With the crowd standing and cheering for Ortiz, Maidana improbably landed a straight right hand that put Ortiz flat on his back.

The crowd was stunned, but Ortiz popped back up, and both fighters made it to the bell. The second round was just as competitive, with the boxers trading shots until Ortiz knocked down Maidana with a right hook with about 30 seconds left - and then did it again with a shorter version of the same punch right before the bell.

But Maidana landed several big shots in the next three rounds, rocking Ortiz with two powerful right hands in the final seconds of the fifth. Ortiz also developed that big cut, which gaped open when the fight ended 46 seconds into the sixth.

“I came to look to finish him, and that’s what happened,” Maidana said. “He hits very hard, but he doesn’t have a good chin. Definitely he didn’t adjust to my rhythm.”

Chris John, the Indonesian featherweight champion who backed out of his co-main event rematch with Rocky Juarez this week because of an illness, appeared in the ring before the final bout. He waved to several hundred flag-waving Indonesian fans who bought tickets thinking they would see John’s second fight in this country.

The undercard fighters entered the ring to the strains of remixed Michael Jackson songs, and Ortiz made his ring walk to a “Beat It” and “Thriller” mash-up. A ceremonial 10-count was rung in honor of the pop star who died Thursday in Holmby Hills, about 12 miles from Staples Center. Jackson spent many nights rehearsing at the arena during the past two months for his 50 scheduled summer appearances in London.

[Expug]

Speaking of sharp dressed fighters, I gotta throw Billy Conn into the mix.
That Irishman could put himself together real well. Good dresser.

[dagosd2000]

LEAVING FOR SPAIN TOMORROW

Tom
Next year when we do this again I m taking you along as our tour guide.That town I was thinking about is named Wolfgangness.If you saw the Sound Of Music,that s where it was filmed. If you didn t see The Sound Of Music,just look up this burg on the Internet. Frank,after seeing that picture of the two pigs doing it ,I m taking you along too,but we ain t going to Germany. Maybe Italy. I don t want to get into the pros and cons of people,but gee whiz,I guess I will. These people are a bit anal. Fussy. I m riding back on this train from the Bavarian Alps and it s stuffy inside. I roll my window half way down to get some fresh air. The train hasn t moved ten feet and this old biddy comes up to me and TELLS me to roll up the window. It s too cold. Thing is she s sitting 20 rows in back of me. Adam decides to take his shoes off and the smell from his feet remind me of Frank s picture. So I roll down the window, Just a little. It begins to drizzle very slightly. I felt one little drop. OK,here comes this dude who s talking to me and I know what he wants. I look at my wife and say,'What the F is he saying?' I don t roll up nothing. I think they 're into control. Ain't gonna control me. GOING TO SPAIN TOMORROW. CIAO.

[Randyman]

Argentina’s Maidana stuns Victor Ortiz
By GREG BEACHAM AP Sports Writer

LOS ANGELES(AP)—Marcos Maidana stopped Victor Ortiz early in the sixth round of an action-packed fight Saturday night, using a punishing right hand to upset one of boxing’s top prospects.

Maidana (26-1, 25 KOs), a 140-pound Argentine who fights mostly in Germany, was knocked down three times in the opening two rounds of his first fight in this country. Yet Maidana also flattened Ortiz in the first round, and he steadily landed punches until Ortiz finally was forced to stop, his face badly cut and terribly swollen.

“I went down, but I got up because I have a big heart,” Maidana said. “I saw that Victor felt my punches, and I said, ‘I know I can win this.”’

Ortiz (24-2-1) was the most promising youngster in Golden Boy Promotions’ stable of up-and-coming fighters, but the Kansas native couldn’t maintain his aggressive early pace and took far too many big shots. After he was rendered unsteady and bloody from the final knockdown, the ringside doctor stopped the fight.

Ortiz had knocked out his last eight opponents, but the talkative fighter was left practically speechless by Maidana’s power and resilience. He finished with a large cut near his right eye and a badly damaged left eye.

“I don’t know what happened,” he said. “I wasn’t in the zone tonight. He packs some power behind those punches. I usually keep composed, and tonight I wasn’t. … I made some mistakes. I wanted to take my time and finish him, but I was hurt.”

Ortiz connected on 42 percent of his 177 punches. Maidana was much busier with 293 punches, connecting with 23 percent.

Maidana incurred his only loss in February on a split decision against Andreas Kotelnik. Maidana felt robbed by sketchy judging that favored Kotelnik, who lives in Germany - and he left nothing to the scorecards against Ortiz.

Ortiz couldn’t live up to the expectations of an enthusiastic crowd supporting him in his first main-event bout at Staples Center, near his adopted Southern California home. Ortiz had never headlined a card in such a large venue, but Oscar De La Hoya was eager to turn him into a star.

Both fighters moved forward furiously from the opening bell, and Ortiz knocked down Maidana for the first time on a big right hand with about 1:15 left. With the crowd standing and cheering for Ortiz, Maidana improbably landed a straight right hand that put Ortiz flat on his back.

The crowd was stunned, but Ortiz popped back up, and both fighters made it to the bell. The second round was just as competitive, with the boxers trading shots until Ortiz knocked down Maidana with a right hook with about 30 seconds left - and then did it again with a shorter version of the same punch right before the bell.

But Maidana landed several big shots in the next three rounds, rocking Ortiz with two powerful right hands in the final seconds of the fifth. Ortiz also developed that big cut, which gaped open when the fight ended 46 seconds into the sixth.

“I came to look to finish him, and that’s what happened,” Maidana said. “He hits very hard, but he doesn’t have a good chin. Definitely he didn’t adjust to my rhythm.”

Chris John, the Indonesian featherweight champion who backed out of his co-main event rematch with Rocky Juarez this week because of an illness, appeared in the ring before the final bout. He waved to several hundred flag-waving Indonesian fans who bought tickets thinking they would see John’s second fight in this country.

The undercard fighters entered the ring to the strains of remixed Michael Jackson songs, and Ortiz made his ring walk to a “Beat It” and “Thriller” mash-up. A ceremonial 10-count was rung in honor of the pop star who died Thursday in Holmby Hills, about 12 miles from Staples Center. Jackson spent many nights rehearsing at the arena during the past two months for his 50 scheduled summer appearances in London.

Ortiz quit. During the interview with Max Kellerman he said "I don't deserve to get beat up like this". I'm not so sure I understand. No one deserves it but is a possibility when you decide to step into the ring. Every boxer knows that. He also said "I'm not going out on my back for anyone" (I'm paraphrasing).

Ortiz was in a tough fight to be sure, in fact it was a great fight, and he was giving a good account of himself. He came back from a knockdown early on and had down Maidona three times during the fight. The truth is he lost his will. This is not a case of a veteran fighter at the end of his career deciding he no longer had it. A lot of fighters have reached the end of their careers sitting on the stool unable, either physically of mentally, to continue. This is fighter being put to the test at the appropriate time in his career and he had no qualms about quitting.

Later, when the fight was over and people where milling around the ring, Sugar Shane Mosley was talking with Ortiz, trying to encourage him. A fighter like Mosley could never understand a fighter like Ortiz. Mosley would and has gone down swinging. If Golden Boy Promotions and boxing in general were pinning their hopes for the future of boxing on Victor Ortiz, they better look elsewhere, he's not their man.

Randy

[Randyman]

Speaking of sharp dressed fighters, I gotta throw Billy Conn into the mix.
That Irishman could put himself together real well. Good dresser.

From the photos I've seen Conn was a sharp dresser. He carried himself like a pro and the ladies really went for him. here are a few examples:








Randy

[Randyman]

THE GREAT MEXICAN FIGHTERS

By Ron Borges
Courtesy of HBO Boxing http://www.hbo.com/boxing/

Any listing of the top 10 anything is as much a generational question as a historical one. Your father's champion is quite seldom your own, with the obvious exception of Sugar Ray Robinson, who is everyone's champion unless they simply have no idea what they are talking about.

Putting aside the nearly universal acceptance of Robinson as the all-time best pound-for-pound fighter in the world, there are many gray heads who will tell you, for example, that what Joe Louis would have done to Muhammad Ali would have been criminal assault, just as there is a generation today that believes Roy Jones, Jr. would have blasted out everyone in his path regardless of what era they came from or that Lennox Lewis would have destroyed Rocky Marciano despite the fact no one ever even beat Marciano let alone beat him down.

Regardless of who you like, once an all-time top 10 is established over time it becomes increasingly difficult for more recent practitioners to fight their way onto the list, a fate present super featherweight champion Marco Antonio Barrera is wrestling with as a footnote to his preparations for a Sept. 16 rematch against Rocky Juarez. Barrera is without question one of the top Mexican fighters of his time and arguably of all-time, having won world titles at super featherweight, featherweight and super bantamweight while holding a 2-1 record against Erik Morales, his major challenger for modern day Mexican supremacy. But does he fit anywhere on a top 10 list of all-time Mexican fighters?

That is a debate that is likely to rage for some time, with devotees of Julio Cesar Chavez putting him atop any list of Mexico's all-time best fighters and then going from there. But even that point is debatable. Not for someone like six-time world champion Oscar De La Hoya perhaps, but ask his father, Joel, and you might get a different response. And if you put the question to one of De La Hoya's former trainers, Jesus Rivero, you'd get a different argument entirely, which is what makes these kind of debates fascinating fodder for a night of drinking tequila sunrises until sunrise.

"I would have to say Chavez,'' De La Hoya said when asked to name his top Mexican fighter of all-time. "He's been the best Mexican fighter in my time but "The Professor'' (as Rivero was called) would tell me Miguel Canto was the master. He was a tremendously crafty little boxer.

"My Dad would mention Salvador Sanchez to me all the time. He died so young (23) I never saw him but my father saw him live. He would tell me Sanchez had the potential to be much better than Chavez. He says Sanchez had something special. He was on his way up. It's hard to say what he would have done. And my father would always talk to me about Ruben Olivares. That was his all-time favorite."

Chavez? Olivares? Canto? Sanchez? Okay but what about Carlos Zarate or Kid Azteca or Vicente Saldivar? And what about perhaps the most under-rated Mexican fighter of all-time, the never defeated Ricardo Lopez.

"Finito'' was 50-0-1 when he said "finito'' on Nov. 28, 2002, retiring nearly a year after defeating Zolani Petelo to defend the IBF light flyweight title one last time after having successfully defended the WBC minimumweight championship a record 22 times before moving up to light flyweight and defending that title belt twice. Lopez, in fact, holds the record for most consecutive title fights without a loss (26), a streak that stretched over 11 years before his retirement and certainly argues strongly his case for a place in the Mexican top 10. So why does Lopez' name so often seem to come as an afterthought when the debate is greatest Mexican fighters?

"A lot of people overlook him because he was in the smallest weight classes and was always on the undercards of other fighters' like Chavez,'' De La Hoya theorizes. "People really didn't know him. He made so many defenses and he left the sport undefeated, which hardly anyone does. It's amazing he gets so overlooked. He should be on that top 10 list.''

So, then, other than those names who else belongs on such a list and would it include Barrera? His promoter thinks so.

"Barrera is right there with the top five of all-time from Mexico,'' insisted De La Hoya, whose Golden Boy Promotions will run the Barrera-Juarez rematch in Las Vegas. "Chavez is still on the top of the list for me but Barrera is not too far back. He's been down so many times and come back and proven he can be a champion again. He was dropped by Junior Jones and (Manny) Pacquiao but he's always come back.

"In talking with Barrera, he's a very proud man. He wants to be considered on top, like Chavez. He wants his name with those names. To secure his legacy he knows he has to beat Juarez again and then avenge his loss to Pacquiao. He wants the Pacquiao rematch so I was fairly surprised when he picked Rocky Jaurez to fight first but I can see why he chose that route. He wants any questions erased.''

If Barrera (62-4, 42 KO) can erase whatever questions some people might have of him, where might he fit, if at all, on such a list of best Mexican boxers of all-time? Here's one look which should surely spur debate.

1. Julio Cesar Chavez - Widely regarded as the greatest Mexican fighter of all-time, although old timers will debate you on that. They favor Olivares, Miguel Canto or maybe even Sanchez. Whatever they think, Chavez won world titles at 130, 135 and three times at 140 and retired with a record of 108-6-2 with 87 KOs. He was unbeaten in his first 91 fights (although a draw to Pernell Whitaker was a gift) before Frankie Randall beat him by well deserved split decision. One of his greatest performances was his last-second stoppage of Meldrick Taylor on March 17, 1990, a brilliant and brutal night in which Taylor administered a boxing lesson but took a beating from which he never fully recovered. Chavez used suffocating pressure, body punching and crushing right hands to wear men down and beat them up. He was 88-0 when he and Whitaker fought in San Antonio. He was a lesser fighter after that but he was also 31 and a veteran of an inordinate amount of ring wars. It will take a lot for someone to remove him out of this No. 1 ranking.

2. Ruben Olivares - One of the two or three best bantamweights ever to fight, Olivares held that title through two reigns between 1969-72 before moving up to twice win the WBC featherweight title. A powerful puncher, Olivares won his first 60 fights, 55 by knockout on the way to posting a record of 88-13-3 (78 KO). Perhaps no 118 pounder ever punched harder than Olivares. He could box but most often chose not to, relying instead on a shot to the liver and a menacing style that was all about coming forward. Classic Mexican brawler, Olivares was loved by Mexican fight fans. His three wars with Bobby Chacon are typical of why.

3. Salvador Sanchez - Sanchez (44-1-1) never lost a title fight and defeated a roster of top opponents like Danny Lopez (twice), Azumah Nelson, Wilfredo Gomez, Juan LaPorte and Ruben Castillo before dying at 23 in a car wreck. He had made nine successful defenses of the featherweight title at the time of his death. Sanchez was not the typical Mexican brawler but rather a defensive expert and sharp counter puncher. His greatest night was when he destroyed Gomez, who was 32-0-1 at the time, in eight technically perfect rounds.

4. Miguel Canto - A defensive master, he's the Mexican version of Willie Pep. He successfully defended the flyweight title a record 14 times, winning all but one of those fights by 15-round decision, a record that will never be approached for dominance by virtue of pure boxing skill.

Canto finished 61-9-4 with only 15 knockouts with four of those losses coming at the end of his career and most of the rest in the first two years of it. He was more difficult to hit than Sandy Koufax.

5. Carlos Zarate - Polar opposite of Canto, Zarate was a power puncher locked in a bantamweight's body. Zarate won his first 45 fights, 44 by KO, and retired with a record of 66-4 with 63 knockouts. That's punching power.

He made nine defenses of the bantamweight title in three years, stopping nearly all of the best opposition available to him, making him one of the greatest bantamweights of all-time. Perhaps his greatest moment was knocking out his nemesis of the '70s, Alfonso Zamora, who was 29-0 at the time with 29 knockouts himself, in an over the weight fight. Zarate dropped Zamora three times before stopping him in the fourth round in their April 23, 1977 showdown.

6. Ricardo Lopez - Grossly underrated as De La Hoya says because of his size and the fact promoter Don King kept him hidden behind Chavez for so long.

7. Marco Antonio Barrera - The best Mexican fighter of his era (unless you include Chavez in it). Erik Morales would like to prove otherwise but he's 1-2 against Barrera and the gap between them is widening. Barrera became a complete fighter, rather than just a warrior, after Junior Jones beat him twice. He still loves to brawl but he can box, too. What featherweight of his time was better? A match with Sanchez would have been a Mexican dream fight.

8. Vicente Saldivar - Elected to the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1999, Saldivar finished his career 37-3 with 27 KO, having won the featherweight title in 1964 by upsetting Sugar Ramos. He held that title for four years, including three wins over Howard Winstone during that stretch before retiring after their third fight in 1967. He returned to the ring 21 months later and won the featherweight title a second time in less than a year, although this reign was short-lived.

9. Kid Azteca - A tremendous body puncher whose liver shot Micky Ward would have loved, Azteca went a phenomenal 151-41-8 with 81 KOs during a 29-year career that went from 1932 to 1961, a span of four decades.

10. Jose Becerra - The most popular fighter in Mexico by July 8, 1959 when he stopped bantamweight champion Alphonse Halimi, conqueror of Becerra's idol Raul Macias 21 months earlier, for the first of two times to become world champion. Becerra retired at 24 however with a 71-5-2 record (42 KO) less than a year after killing Walt Ingram in the ring. Because he fought mostly in the '50s he is all but forgotten these days, overshadowed by fighters like Humberto "Chiquita'' Gonzalez or Pipino Cuevas. They were good but his skills exceeded theirs at their best.

Barrera, not surprisingly, has his own list of top Mexican fighters and does not include himself in the top five or Chavez at No. 1. The former was out of modesty because he places Morales, who he's beaten twice, on his list. The latter was out of the belief some fight fans hold that no one would have been better than what Sanchez promised to be had his life not been snuffed out at so young an age.

"To be a Mexican fighter you first have to be a warrior,'' says Barrera, which explains his exclusion of the slick-boxing Canto among his top five.

"Throw punches from the first bell to the last. It doesn't matter that you get hit as long as you land. That's why I put Olivares on my list. He was a typical Mexican fighter. He was always going forward looking for a knockouts. To me, the list is Salvador Sanchez, Chavez, Ruben Olivares, Vicente Saldivar and (Erik) Morales.''

One fighter likely to be on De La Hoya's top 10 Mexican fighters is one excluded here, former welterweight champion Pipino Cuevas. When De La Hoya was a young amateur his father used to take him to the dusty Main Street Gym in downtown L.A. when Cuevas would be there training for a title fight.

He was the first great fighter De La Hoya ever saw up close and it's a sight he's never forgotten.

"He was the first professional fighter I ever saw workout live at the old Main Street Gym,'' De La Hoya recalled fondly. "We paid $2 to see him train. He'd knock down or knock out his sparring partners. Back then they didn't wear any headgear! Oh, my god! He was pretty impressive. I was intrigued by his power. He really wasn't a technician but oh that left hook.''

Despite having twice faced down Chavez, in the end he remains atop De La Hoya's list however because he concedes what many Mexican fight fans will always argue about their two meetings.

"When I first watched him vs. (Edwin) Rosario I was a kid,'' De La Hoya said. "My father took me to a bar to watch him. He was loved by so many fans. He packed the bars and arenas when he fought. A Chavez fight was a big party.

"To this day, in my eyes, he's one of the best to come out of Mexico. If I faced Chavez in his prime it might have been a different outcome. It would have been a hell of a fight.''

If he could put on a few pounds and Chavez could take off a few years, Marco Antonio Barrera would probably feel the same way.