The Greatest Middleweight ever?

[Elton John]

Monzon wasn't too slow for Tony Licata or Emile Griffith . . .

Agreed, and though I would give Jones the edge in this dept it would just be another puzzle solved by this grand master of the ring. Jones talents and skills (including handspeed) would simply not be enough to get this job done. IMHO.

monzon was great but jones was the master of figuring out his opponents' punching range and staying outside of it. his quickness allowed him to do that. while this didn't make for the most exciting fights, it was effective. jones would make this a boring fight and i feel he would be too fast for monzon and outpoint him.

I just came back from the youtube video Monzon-Briscoe. I couldnt believe how slow Monzon was! He would never reach Roy with such a crude jab. let alone the followup right cross.

Let's face it, boxing was Monzon's forte, as his long arms and thin frame would suggest.

I dont believe in trying to make an issue of Roy's never having gone past 12 and no, Monzon would not figure him out because he would never reach him. And Licata was no Roy Jones, that's for sure.

[yiddle]

ray robinson
marvin hagler
harry greb
carlos monzon
stanley ketchel

[BoxBuzz]

Interesting assessment. Beauty and apparently skill is all in the eye of the beholder. His accuracy was rather noteworthy. (understatement)
And he had power in every shot, he would definitely find Roy....and we know that Roy hates being found. Mo nzon's ability to take it would be helpful as well. Roy's durability?....not so much.

[Ezzard]

I'd add accuracy and timing, as well as a far more durable psychology.

[Elton John]

I'd add accuracy and timing, as well as a far more durable psychology.

that is accuracy and timing in slow motion when compared with Roy Jones. Monzon aint finding him folks. Never

[raylawpc]

I'd add accuracy and timing, as well as a far more durable psychology.

that is accuracy and timing in slow motion when compared with Roy Jones. Monzon aint finding him folks. Never

Even funnier: Watching one youtube makes Elton an expert on 1970s middleweights and, in particular, the great Carlos Monzon.

[Ezzard]

I'd add accuracy and timing, as well as a far more durable psychology.

that is accuracy and timing in slow motion when compared with Roy Jones. Monzon aint finding him folks. Never

Everyone found Jones once he stopped taking the juice.

[Jaywheel]

I'd add accuracy and timing, as well as a far more durable psychology.

that is accuracy and timing in slow motion when compared with Roy Jones. Monzon aint finding him folks. Never

Even funnier: Watching one youtube makes Elton an expert on 1970s middleweights and, in particular, the great Carlos Monzon.

Don't go breaking my heart, Monzon was good but he was in no way a Terry Norris.

[bjermaine]

Everyone found Jones once he stopped taking the juice.

let me ask you this ezzard, if jones was getting away with "taking the juice" his whole career, why would he stop? in 2000, he tested positive for andro which was in supplements and was legal to the public at the time he took it. besides that, he has been clean.

he started losing when he destroyed his body by moving down from heavyweight at age 35. when jones worked with mackie shillstone he got to 200 lbs and had only 6% body fat. he was crazy to try to go back to 175 and still got away with it once.

if you have any other proof of jones using illegal substances, please share.

[Ezzard]

I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. It's impossible to prove either way...

First of all I don't believe any boxer, following a hard training regime, doing roadwork and other aerobic exercise, can put on solid muscle in such a short time (i.e. months). That's not me against Jones that's just my experience of training and being around sports men and women. I think anyone who bounces up and down the weights is using something that was not available in the past.

There has also been rumours of abuse by Jones hanging around boxing circles for quite some time.

I was told that the supplements that Jones took were injected into his stomach. I can't verify if this is true but it sort of casts it in a different light. Besides, legal or otherwise, he took these supplements and who knows what effect they had. I think you have to consider this and factor it into your argument if you're basically just trying to say Roy was quicker than anyone else therefore better.

Jones did get caught out for something, so he can't claim to be totally innocent.

Then there's the prediction of his loss to Tarver. Remember the pre-fight stare-down, super confident Roy looked like a scared rabbit. I mean I'd never seen him look like that before. I believe that deep down he knew and was basically lost wihtout his enhancers.

I know I won't persuade anyone (people generally have already amde up their minds) but as someone who doesn't trust anyone when large sums of money are concerned I think it's far more likely he did take them than he didn't.

ROY JONES JR. IS IN DENIAL
By Elisa Harrison
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2004



MIAMI, FLA.

When questioned about his lack luster form in training Roy Jones seemed lost for words and so he should. This is his first bout since the new approved commissioned human growth hormone test is being used. Anthony Hall the former head of doping was newly re-appointed after being proven right in the James Toney case (See appendix 43) has demanded weekly tests for Testosterone and groth hormone for Roy Jones Jr.

Mr Hall has claimed and shown undeniable evidence of irregular testosterone levels in mr Roy Jones, who has claimed that it was suppliments that caused the ****e in his serum levels. Those claim have been squashed by male hormone experts who called them farsicle.

I caught up with Mr Hall during my stay in Las Vegas last week and he stated: "This is the first fight that we are able to put together a testing regime foolproof to any comebacks. Its the same regime mr Jones took part in back in 97 but this time it has a government seal on it, his lawyers or anybodies lawyers for that matter can contest." When pushed by his distain for Jones he added: " I and the rest of the Nevada and New York state know that he (Roy Jones) was using illegal means going into all of his fight from 1996 FACT." a loophole and good lawyers got him off." When I pushed Hall about the statements hes made he said: "Look its in black and white every fight since 1996 we tested his serum testosterone levels they were through the roof. Now those tests which are 99.9% accurate were called wrong i will be intrested to see how he performes in his next bout if his performance levels stay the same then i say hes still a cheat, but i have a feeling he (Roy Jones) will not be able to sustain the level of performance without using these hormones"

"Lets see how he does in the Tarver bout"

[bjermaine]

I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. It's impossible to prove either way...

First of all I don't believe any boxer, following a hard training regime, doing roadwork and other aerobic exercise, can put on solid muscle in such a short time (i.e. months).

There has also been rumours of abuse by Jones hanging around boxing circles for quite some time.

Then there's the prediction of his loss to Tarver. Remember the pre-fight stare-down, super confident Roy looked like a scared rabbit.

so your proof is that:
1. you really don't know,
2. you're sort of an expert on training,
3. you've heard rumors,
4. and that you think roy looked scared before he fought tarver.

raylawpc, i believe you've written that you're an attorney. does ezzard have enough evidence to win in court?

you've also included a story by a "writer" whose personal crusade is to out jones on using illegal substances. there's no present day fighter that is hated more by the boxing media than jones. if this was real news, the real media would be all over it to expose him.

[dempseyfire]

Everyone found Jones once he stopped taking the juice.

let me ask you this ezzard, if jones was getting away with "taking the juice" his whole career, why would he stop? in 2000, he tested positive for andro which was in supplements and was legal to the public at the time he took it. besides that, he has been clean.

he started losing when he destroyed his body by moving down from heavyweight at age 35. when jones worked with mackie shillstone he got to 200 lbs and had only 6% body fat. he was crazy to try to go back to 175 and still got away with it once.

if you have any other proof of jones using illegal substances, please share.

Moore did it several times at an older age.

Roy had no excuses for the Tarver rematch. His body had more than enough time to get acclimated to being lighter again.

[Ezzard]

I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. It's impossible to prove either way...

First of all I don't believe any boxer, following a hard training regime, doing roadwork and other aerobic exercise, can put on solid muscle in such a short time (i.e. months).

There has also been rumours of abuse by Jones hanging around boxing circles for quite some time.

Then there's the prediction of his loss to Tarver. Remember the pre-fight stare-down, super confident Roy looked like a scared rabbit.

so your proof is that:
1. you really don't know,
2. you're sort of an expert on training,
3. you've heard rumors,
4. and that you think roy looked scared before he fought tarver.

raylawpc, i believe you've written that you're an attorney. does ezzard have enough evidence to win in court?

you've also included a story by a "writer" whose personal crusade is to out jones on using illegal substances. there's no present day fighter that is hated more by the boxing media than jones. if this was real news, the real media would be all over it to expose him.

No, I did not offer any proof. I said as much in the email.

Your argument is what?

1) You're a fan who wants to believe your own agenda.
2) ...

Everything else you are arguing is even less substantiated.

You think the writer is on a crusade to get Jones (maybe there's a reason for it).

You believe everyone is out to get Roy because they don't hold him in the same esteem as you do.

Real news and real media? You mean news and media that suits your POV.

I honestly believe that enhancers are epidemic in almost all pro sports. The definition of legal versus illegal doesn't really bother me. I'll admit that I'm the kind of person who would do what he had to in order to win. But when comparing him to past greats I think you have to be a little more honest with what is put before you.

Monzon was a better fighter who beat better competition and had a better career. Maybe the styles would match up to suit Jones, but I just don't think basing an argument on one physical trait, that has a big question mark next to it, is conclusive.

[raylawpc]

[quote="bjermaine"]

raylawpc, i believe you've written that you're an attorney. does ezzard have enough evidence to win in court?

[quote]

I've done more than write about it. I've got certificates on my office wall from the Oklahoma and Missouri Supreme Courts to prove it.

But, in answer to your question, if I'm representing him then of course he's got enough evidence to prove it!!

[bjermaine]

raylawpc, i believe you've written that you're an attorney. does ezzard have enough evidence to win in court?

I've done more than write about it. I've got certificates on my office wall from the Oklahoma and Missouri Supreme Courts to prove it.

But, in answer to your question, if I'm representing him then of course he's got enough evidence to prove it!!

fair enough

[bjermaine]

I honestly believe that enhancers are epidemic in almost all pro sports. The definition of legal versus illegal doesn't really bother me. I'll admit that I'm the kind of person who would do what he had to in order to win. But when comparing him to past greats I think you have to be a little more honest with what is put before you.

i'll agree with you there. i used to love major league baseball but now it makes me sick every time a game is on. the players' union became a joke to me when they didn't want steroid testing and they lost me as a fan. i'm not so naive to think that jones wouldn't have done anything illegal but fighters are drug tested and if he was a true cheat, those results would have shown up in a lot more fights. it's just hard for me to believe that there is a big jones cover up from drug tests in his other fights.

[Ezzard]

I honestly believe that enhancers are epidemic in almost all pro sports. The definition of legal versus illegal doesn't really bother me. I'll admit that I'm the kind of person who would do what he had to in order to win. But when comparing him to past greats I think you have to be a little more honest with what is put before you.

i'll agree with you there. i used to love major league baseball but now it makes me sick every time a game is on. the players' union became a joke to me when they didn't want steroid testing and they lost me as a fan. i'm not so naive to think that jones wouldn't have done anything illegal but fighters are drug tested and if he was a true cheat, those results would have shown up in a lot more fights. it's just hard for me to believe that there is a big jones cover up from drug tests in his other fights.

Certain sports lend themselves to it IMO. If you're the 45th best sprinter in the world then essentially you're a nobody (in the harshest sense). Think about it... That's quite an achievement in real terms. But win a gold medal and you're a millionaire many times over. We may be talking about fracions of seconds making a huge impact on your life and that of your loved ones. I understand why it happens.

I think boxing is similar.

Anyway, lets just say that we are both suspicious but to very different degrees. You seem to think it's possible but not likely. I think it's probable but not conclusive.

[Elton John]

I think there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. It's impossible to prove either way...

First of all I don't believe any boxer, following a hard training regime, doing roadwork and other aerobic exercise, can put on solid muscle in such a short time (i.e. months).

There has also been rumours of abuse by Jones hanging around boxing circles for quite some time.

Then there's the prediction of his loss to Tarver. Remember the pre-fight stare-down, super confident Roy looked like a scared rabbit.

so your proof is that:
1. you really don't know,
2. you're sort of an expert on training,
3. you've heard rumors,
4. and that you think roy looked scared before he fought tarver.

raylawpc, i believe you've written that you're an attorney. does ezzard have enough evidence to win in court?

you've also included a story by a "writer" whose personal crusade is to out jones on using illegal substances. there's no present day fighter that is hated more by the boxing media than jones. if this was real news, the real media would be all over it to expose him.

In other words, he doesnt have any proof. I could have told you that!

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

First of all I don't believe any boxer, following a hard training regime, doing roadwork and other aerobic exercise, can put on solid muscle in such a short time (i.e. months). That's not me against Jones that's just my experience of training and being around sports men and women. I think anyone who bounces up and down the weights is using something that was not available in the past.

ROY JONES JR. IS IN DENIAL
By Elisa Harrison
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2004

- Doesn't matter what you believe since you or Ms Harrison don't know anything that passes for substance.

First off, all Roy had to do was show up at his normal street weight against Ruiz and he makes weight. He was 193, 8 lbs over his normal LH ring weight. Could've trained to his normal regimen and then instead of drying out to make weight, overeat and drink the day before to put on the 8 lbs as one way to accomplish the task. Or wear sweats with plenty bling which heavies known to do.

2nd, Roy never bounced up and down divisions. That's just your empty noggin sounding off. He went up once for one fight against a selected opponent, the easiest mark of the belt holders in a fight with the ref in his corner making sure the rules enforced to Roy's advantage.

3rdly, the 1st Tarver loss was due to a single perfect punch that sounded like a cannon going off before the fighters were barely warmed up. Nobody is immune to a bolt of lighting.

Roy or any of the fighters of his era may have used steroids. That's boxing's fault for ignoring drug use until they got into the 3rd millennium like baseball and golf did. He still competed with his peers and there's much less linking him to PED use than other more obvious examples often touted by boxing fans who doubtless count many users among their legions.

Get back to us when you got something more than the usual mucky muck.

[bjermaine]

First off, all Roy had to do was show up at his normal street weight against Ruiz and he makes weight. He was 193, 8 lbs over his normal LH ring weight. Could've trained to his normal regimen and then instead of drying out to make weight, overeat and drink the day before to put on the 8 lbs as one way to accomplish the task. Or wear sweats with plenty bling which heavies known to do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrHydFIwfBo

this is part of the sweet science documentary that was done on the ruiz-jones fight. jones weighed 193 on the official scale after alton merkerson and norman stone got into a shoving match and supposedly hit the scale. i think the weigh-in is around the 2 min mark and jones knows he doesn't weigh 193. right around the 6 min mark on the clip, jones gets re-weighed by mark ratner and weighs 199 before the fight. ratner admits fault at the weigh-in. ruiz weighed 224 the day of the fight. jones said he came into camp at 192 and he did a lot of weight training with mackie shillstone for this fight. i have no idea how he even made 175 after this fight.

my favorite part of this clip is at the beginning when that plagiaristic asshole ron borges predicts that ruiz will knock jones out.