BEST CHIN IN THE PAST 30 YEARS AT HW

Cap
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Post by Cap »

alrightjim wrote:Where do you get Jeffries was slow? There's nothing gleanable in the historical record to draw such a conclusion. It smacks of argument by crass assertion. In fact, observations by contemporaries state just the opposite, that in his prime Jeffries was quick. It is best not to confuse the old Jeffries who came off the alfalfa farm at Jack London's behest with the undefeated champ of the turn of the century, anymore than you should confuse the Tyson that was dropped by Danny Williams with the young dynamo that blasted out Larry Holmes, anymore than you should confuse the Holmes that was blasted out by Tyson with the slick warrior that punched Ali silly, anymore than you should confuse the Ali that was punched silly by Holmes with the Ali that dropped Foreman. Getting the picture, Cap?
Compared to the small heavies of his day, Jeff would've seemed a giant. And really, what kind of competition did he have? Aside from Corbett and Fitz who were a little long in the tooth and light on the scales, and the clumsy brawler Tom Sharkey, there wasn't much. He supposely defended his title against some bozo named Finnegan whose only claim to fame was that he was worse than Gus Ruhlin, another Mister Mediocre. Oh, yeah. Almost forgot Joe Choynski, the super-middleweight.

Jeffries was tough enough to take the punches of middleweights and light heavyweights. And he could hit pretty hard, though he couldn't kayo Tom Sharkey, although Fitz did it twice and Ruhlin once. He was being made to look like a novice by both Fitz and Corbett before they tired themselves out. At his best, Jeffries was built a lot like a white Mike Weaver. If he fought in the 60s he would have won some and lost some. He wouldn't have been anything special.

Chuvalo had trouble with good boxers, which Jeffries wasn't. When George lost to Foreman, he was past it. The prime Chuvalo of the early 60s would've cleaned Jeff's clock, if he could avoid a crooked decision like in the Bonavena and Terrell fights.

Cap
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Post by Cap »

alrightjim wrote:But the bottom line is really this---you can say he was tough all you want, but he got his clock cleaned by a blown up welterwight in Walker.
Suggest you read the comments that accompany the record here of the Walker-Uzcudun fight. Walker hit him well after the bell and opened a bloody great gash over the Basque's eye.

Cap
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Post by dempseyfire »

Cap wrote:
alrightjim wrote:Where do you get Jeffries was slow? There's nothing gleanable in the historical record to draw such a conclusion. It smacks of argument by crass assertion. In fact, observations by contemporaries state just the opposite, that in his prime Jeffries was quick. It is best not to confuse the old Jeffries who came off the alfalfa farm at Jack London's behest with the undefeated champ of the turn of the century, anymore than you should confuse the Tyson that was dropped by Danny Williams with the young dynamo that blasted out Larry Holmes, anymore than you should confuse the Holmes that was blasted out by Tyson with the slick warrior that punched Ali silly, anymore than you should confuse the Ali that was punched silly by Holmes with the Ali that dropped Foreman. Getting the picture, Cap?
Compared to the small heavies of his day, Jeff would've seemed a giant. And really, what kind of competition did he have? Aside from Corbett and Fitz who were a little long in the tooth and light on the scales, and the clumsy brawler Tom Sharkey, there wasn't much. He supposely defended his title against some bozo named Finnegan whose only claim to fame was that he was worse than Gus Ruhlin, another Mister Mediocre. Oh, yeah. Almost forgot Joe Choynski, the super-middleweight.

Jeffries was tough enough to take the punches of middleweights and light heavyweights. And he could hit pretty hard, though he couldn't kayo Tom Sharkey, although Fitz did it twice and Ruhlin once. He was being made to look like a novice by both Fitz and Corbett before they tired themselves out. At his best, Jeffries was built a lot like a white Mike Weaver. If he fought in the 60s he would have won some and lost some. He wouldn't have been anything special.

Chuvalo had trouble with good boxers, which Jeffries wasn't. When George lost to Foreman, he was past it. The prime Chuvalo of the early 60s would've cleaned Jeff's clock, if he could avoid a crooked decision like in the Bonavena and Terrell fights.

Cap
Make up your mind-you said Jefferies was 6 ft and 205 in prime condition, yet is a 'giant' compared to the 6'1, 192 lb Corbett or the 6'2, 200 lb Ruhlin or Peter Jackson???
Again, I pose the question-why would a smart fighter look for an early KO in a 25 rd fight???? Sharkey was no light HW he was 185 built similary to Marciano I guess you think Chuvalo would beat Marciano too huh :lol:
Cap
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Post by Cap »

I just spent twenty minutes of my life, that I'll never get back again, composing an absolutely brilliant point by point destruction of your arguments and constructing a jaw-dropping case for the superiority of Chuvalo over Jeffries, only to have it vanish because of a disrupted internet connection. Oh, well. As your friends across the pond say, "C'est la guerre!"

Let's just agree to disagree.

Cap :TU:
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Post by dempseyfire »

Cap wrote:I just spent twenty minutes of my life, that I'll never get back again, composing an absolutely brilliant point by point destruction of your arguments and constructing a jaw-dropping case for the superiority of Chuvalo over Jeffries, only to have it vanish because of a disrupted internet connection. Oh, well. As your friends across the pond say, "C'est la guerre!"

Let's just agree to disagree.

Cap :TU:
Maybe fate was telling you something :TU:
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Post by Sweet Scientist »

Cap wrote:But Ali lay on a table after the fight in obvious pain and admitted he peed blood the next day.

Cap
Where did you get that tidbit of info??? I thought I had read virtually everything about Ali...and I don't ever remember reading that...
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Post by marcelo »

CARLOS MONZON!!! NEVER KNOCKED DOWN.... i would also put marvin hagler!!!!
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Post by alrightjim »

Sweet Scientist wrote:
Cap wrote:But Ali lay on a table after the fight in obvious pain and admitted he peed blood the next day.

Cap
Where did you get that tidbit of info??? I thought I had read virtually everything about Ali...and I don't ever remember reading that...
Hi Sweet Scientist. I remember reading it somewhere, too, many years back. But too much is made of it. Half the guys on my junior high school football team peed blood at one time or another. I peed blood once when I was a kid, and all I did was slip and turn my hip while chasing a frisbee. It's not that big a deal. Besides lots of folks are in obvious pain after a prizefight. During the fight they are too busy doing...lemme see, what was it they were busy doing again?...oh, yeah--- fighting too whimper over pain. There may be a crybaby prizefighter that is the exception to that rule, but he doesn't invalidate my point.
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Post by alrightjim »

Cap wrote:
alrightjim wrote:But the bottom line is really this---you can say he was tough all you want, but he got his clock cleaned by a blown up welterwight in Walker.
Suggest you read the comments that accompany the record here of the Walker-Uzcudun fight. Walker hit him well after the bell and opened a bloody great gash over the Basque's eye.

Cap
I'm sure Papke, Greb and Zivic would have been incensed by such antics from Walker. What you saying, the Basque needed the ref to protect him from little Mickey Walker?...

UZCUDUN: "He's cheating me ref, he's fouling me. He's so mean and strong and won't obey the rules, even though Cap swears I have a cross-armed defense that makes me damn hard to hit I am still so sensitive and vulnerable and flat out stupid I drop my arms at the bell and leave myself unprotected even though you told me before the fight (and I get told before EVERY fight) to protect myself at all times. Now I am cut and bleeding and will probably lose to this blownup over-the-hill welterweight."

REFEREE: "Oh, Shuddup and fight, Uzcudun, you crybaby!"
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Post by zslayton »

Chuvalo, Holyfield (more heart than chin), and Mercer all have great chins. It's tough to say but Chuvalo got bombed by everyone in the Heavyweight Golden age and nobody could drop him.
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Post by Cap »

alrightjim wrote:
Cap wrote:
alrightjim wrote:But the bottom line is really this---you can say he was tough all you want, but he got his clock cleaned by a blown up welterwight in Walker.
Suggest you read the comments that accompany the record here of the Walker-Uzcudun fight. Walker hit him well after the bell and opened a bloody great gash over the Basque's eye.

Cap
I'm sure Papke, Greb and Zivic would have been incensed by such antics from Walker. What you saying, the Basque needed the ref to protect him from little Mickey Walker?...

UZCUDUN: "He's cheating me ref, he's fouling me. He's so mean and strong and won't obey the rules, even though Cap swears I have a cross-armed defense that makes me damn hard to hit I am still so sensitive and vulnerable and flat out stupid I drop my arms at the bell and leave myself unprotected even though you told me before the fight (and I get told before EVERY fight) to protect myself at all times. Now I am cut and bleeding and will probably lose to this blownup over-the-hill welterweight."

REFEREE: "Oh, Shuddup and fight, Uzcudun, you crybaby!"
Little Mickey Walker, eh? This is the same Mickey Walker that beat Johnny Risko, KO Christner, Matt Adgie, Bearcat Wright, Jack Gagnon, King Levinsky, Salvatore Ruggirello, Arthur DeKuh, Les Kennedy, and drew with Jack Sharkey and Natie Brown. All big men. If Walker sucker-punched Paolino and opened up a gash that blinded Uzcudun with blood and refused to close, how do you think this might affect the course of battle? And what does anything you have to say have to do with this thread?

Cap
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Post by KOJOE90 »

The pre drink and drugs Jimmy Young deserves a mention I feel. He had a very sturdy chin.
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Post by Sweet Scientist »

KOJOE90 wrote:The pre drink and drugs Jimmy Young deserves a mention I feel. He had a very sturdy chin.
What about the first Shavers fight?
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Post by jezzamundo »

Dempseyfire, just wanting your opinion:

who were the other 2 in the top 3 hardest hitters of all time besides Foreman?
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Post by dempseyfire »

jezzamundo wrote:Dempseyfire, just wanting your opinion:

who were the other 2 in the top 3 hardest hitters of all time besides Foreman?
Hitting power is one of those tough things to measure-do you talk of effective punch-knowing when to punch, timing, speed etc.? Guys like Louis and Tyson were such knockout artists not just b/c they hit hard but also b/c they knew about timing and had great handspeed along with strength. Guys like Foreman, Liston, or Harry Willis Ko'd guys just b/c they were naturally incredibly strong human beings, with heavy heavy hands (along with some speed and boxing skill but not as much as your Louisis or Dempseys).

If I were to make a list of HW punchers, Shavers would have to be in the top 3. He was the definition of a 'one-punch' knockout artist. Every fight I can recall of him in it he had his opponent on queer street at least once (minus the Quarry demolition job).
Number 3??? I don't know . . . . . for sheer power I'd say Max Baer. Killed two people in the ring, had disproportionally massive shoulders which aided in his power. There were many nights where he boxed like he could've cared less, but when he was on his slightly crazy nature saw that he could be one mean sadistic guy . . . . .
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Post by KOJOE90 »

Sweet Scientist wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:The pre drink and drugs Jimmy Young deserves a mention I feel. He had a very sturdy chin.
What about the first Shavers fight?
Young was a green ten fight novice when the monstrous puncher Shavers had over 40 fights in their first fight, I see what you are saying but I think it's a bit unfair to judge Young on that fight.

In the rematch they of course fought a draw, I've read many say Shavers was lucky to get a draw in that fight, but I've never seen it myself.
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Post by Sweet Scientist »

KOJOE90 wrote: Young was a green ten fight novice when the monstrous puncher Shavers had over 40 fights in their first fight, I see what you are saying but I think it's a bit unfair to judge Young on that fight.
One thing you can say about Young...he certainly wasn't 'babied' on the way up...fought Shavers twice...Tiger Williams, Ron Lyle...pretty stiff competition for a young kid...
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Post by KOJOE90 »

Sweet Scientist wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote: Young was a green ten fight novice when the monstrous puncher Shavers had over 40 fights in their first fight, I see what you are saying but I think it's a bit unfair to judge Young on that fight.
One thing you can say about Young...he certainly wasn't 'babied' on the way up...fought Shavers twice...Tiger Williams, Ron Lyle...pretty stiff competition for a young kid...
Indeed can you imagine many of todays young Heavyweights getting in the ring with Roy 'Tiger' Williams?

Makes you thing if Young had been a little better handled and stayed clean what might have been.
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Post by Sweet Scientist »

KOJOE90 wrote: Makes you thing if Young had been a little better handled and stayed clean what might have been.
I've wondered that myself...I have a friend that insists the stiff competition made Young a better fighter...he was thrown to the wolves and survived to become one of the top 3 contenders...and beat some of the best in a very tough era...
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Post by KOJOE90 »

Sweet Scientist wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote: Makes you thing if Young had been a little better handled and stayed clean what might have been.
I've wondered that myself...I have a friend that insists the stiff competition made Young a better fighter...he was thrown to the wolves and survived to become one of the top 3 contenders...and beat some of the best in a very tough era...
Your friend makes a very interesting and valid point, being thrown in as a novice (with little amatuer experience as far as I know) with the likes of Williams, Shavers, Lyle and even Newman would have broken many a fighter. It showed great strength of character and determination on Youngs part not to turn into a journeyman fighter from the very start of his career.

Wether this 'sink or swin' method helped Young develop as a fighter or wether he would have benefited from a slightly slower 'learining curve' is up for debate, but it's an interesting question to ponder.
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