Best "Pre-Louis" Heavyweights

[Ambling Alp]

Before Joe Louis won the title in 1937, who were the best heavyweights? Thought I would take a stab at it:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Jack Dempsey
3. James Jeffries
4. Gene Tunney
5. Sam Langford
6. Harry Wills
7. Joe Jeannette
8. Sam McVey
9. Bob Fitzsimmons
10. James Corbett
11. John L. Sullivan
12. Max Schmeling
13. Max Baer
14. Jack Sharkey
15. Peter Jackson
16. Tommy Burns
17. Tom Sharkey
18. Joe Choynski
19. Marvin Hart
20. Billy Miske
21. Tommy Gibbons
22. Fred Fulton
23. Harry Greb
24. Goerge Godfrey
25. James Braddock

Honorable Mention:
Joe Goddard, Gus Ruhlin,Jess Willard,Gunboat Smith,Larry Gains,Johnny Risko, Ernie Schaaf,Paulino Uzcudun, Tommy Loughran, Primo Carnera.

Lately, we haven't discussed fighters from a long time ago on "Boxers of the Past", so I thought this might be fun to discuss.

[Ezzard]

The rule set was so different back then... And there are big gaps and leaps of faith to be made.

I think Dempsey would beat Jeffries in a 10 round fight but if it was scheduled for 45 then I'd swing towards Jeff.

Schmeling and Sharkey could be inconsistent but on their day they were both formidable fighters.

Nice to see Miske getting a mention int he top 20

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dempsey, Tunney, & Jeffries I consider to be the benchmark, with Fitzsimmons & Johnson on the next tier below them.

Any one of those three could shake the others down, depending on the rules set.

[Expug]

Nice list Alp.
I would give an honorable mention to Luis Angel Firpo and Bill Brennan.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Primo Carnera.

Lately, we haven't discussed fighters from a long time ago on "Boxers of the Past", so I thought this might be fun to discuss.

- Something seriously wrong with any list from that era that can't shoehorn Carnera somewhere in 25 slots.

Marvin Hart over Primo, Willard, Loughran, and Gaines as just one example. Nobody could bother to even mention Luther McCarty or Young Stribling and are willing to put Primo at the back of the bus with nary a protest.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

[Seamus]

2, 3,4,5 all belong above 1.

[Friedie]

my List:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Jack Dempsey
3. James J. Jeffries
4. Sam Langford
5. Max Schmeling
6. Gene Tunney
7. John L. Sullivan
8. Harry Wills
9. Max Baer
10. James J.Corbett
11. Jack Sharkey
12. Joe Jeanette
13. Tommy Burns
14. Young Stribling
15. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Sam McVea
17. Mickey Walker
18. James J. Braddock
19. Primo Carnera
20. Paolino Uzcudun
21. George Godrey
22. Johnny Risko
23. Walter Neusel
24. Marvin Hart
25. Jess Willard

[donnellon]

Jack Sharkey was a lot better than most give him credit for, while Walker, Risko, Stribling , Neusel(definetly), Fulton and Uzcuden are IMO overated. Goddard, Maher, Gunboat and Loughran I'd have higher. Maybe Jeff Clarke...

[Ambling Alp]

How high should Sharkey be? I had him #14 and Friedie had him #11.

Risko is a hard guy to rate. He had so many losses, some against good opponents, but some were against mediocre competition. However, wins over Loughran, Baer,Sharkey,Uzcudun, Godfrey, and Schaaf have to count for a lot. Honorable Mention seems about right.

I did list Gubnoat Smith, Loughran, and Goddard as Honorable Mention. I guess you could make a case for them being in the Top 25. I almost put Maher in as Honorable Mention.

Almost put Brennan in as Honorable Mention as well. He beat a lot of the 2nd tier heavyweights of his day, but didn't seem to be the real contenders. Probably could have had Tom Heeney and Jake Kilrain as HM as well.
I just couldn't justify putting Firpo in.
Probably should have had Stribling as honorable Mention; I do think Friedie has him too high at #11. Same with Mickey Walker.

Any other thoughts that people might have?

[donnellon]

IMO Sharkey proved better in his H2H with Schmeling and matches him careerwise and was defo better than Baer, I'd have him top 10. Also Jeanette and McVey tend to be just a bit overated now. I'd have both down a tad.
I'd take Braddock out and consider Willard and McCarty for inclusion. Stribling no way but I agree its damn hard to rate Risko. And a man that never gets a mention is Jack Root, he was very capable.

[Rossman]

I might go:

1 Dempsey
2 Tunney
3 Johnson
4 Sullivan
5 Jeffries

[Robinson]

In head to head match ups.

I like Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, Gene Tunney, Max Schmelling
and Peter Jackson as my pickings...for the 'top 5'.

[Crease]

Pre-Lewis heavyweights? Well there's an excellent crop of boxers in this category.

Here's my top 10.

1. Jack Dempsey
2. Jack Johnson
3. Max Schmeling
4. James J. Jeffries
5. Gene Tunney
6. John L. Sullivan
7. Max Baer
8. Sam Langford
9. James J. Braddock
10. James Corbett

[HenryK]

The usual suspects are all in the original list, but my ordering would be rather different, roughly:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Sam Langford
3. Gene Tunney
4. Jack Dempsey
5. James Jeffries
6. Harry Wills
7. James Corbett
8. Max Schmeling
9. Jack Sharkey
10. Peter Jackson

Rest whoknows. Honorable mention: John L Sullivan

But since the period under consideration covers everything from the end of the bare-nuckle era to the onset of modern boxing, the list really compares the uncomparable. Schmeling one could, with a bit of preparation, picture in a 2009 cruiserweight championship fight, Sullivan surely not. At best he'd make headlines in strongman competitions.

[HenryK]

my List:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Jack Dempsey
3. James J. Jeffries
4. Sam Langford
5. Max Schmeling
6. Gene Tunney
7. John L. Sullivan
8. Harry Wills
9. Max Baer
10. James J.Corbett
11. Jack Sharkey
12. Joe Jeanette
13. Tommy Burns
14. Young Stribling
15. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Sam McVea
17. Mickey Walker
18. James J. Braddock
19. Primo Carnera
20. Paolino Uzcudun
21. George Godrey
22. Johnny Risko
23. Walter Neusel
24. Marvin Hart
25. Jess Willard

Not bad at all. Peter Jackson got left out, however, probably unintentionally. While Neusel is hardly "pre-Louis".

[raylawpc]

The usual suspects are all in the original list, but my ordering would be rather different, roughly:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Sam Langford
3. Gene Tunney
4. Jack Dempsey
5. James Jeffries
6. Harry Wills
7. James Corbett
8. Max Schmeling
9. Jack Sharkey
10. Peter Jackson

Rest whoknows. Honorable mention: John L Sullivan

But since the period under consideration covers everything from the end of the bare-nuckle era to the onset of modern boxing, the list really compares the uncomparable. Schmeling one could, with a bit of preparation, picture in a 2009 cruiserweight championship fight, Sullivan surely not. At best he'd make headlines in strongman competitions.

Are you suggesting that Sullivan lacked the athleticism to compete in boxing today, if he was trained and fought under today's conditions and rules? Schmeling could, but Sullivan could not?

[HenryK]

The usual suspects are all in the original list, but my ordering would be rather different, roughly:

1. Jack Johnson
2. Sam Langford
3. Gene Tunney
4. Jack Dempsey
5. James Jeffries
6. Harry Wills
7. James Corbett
8. Max Schmeling
9. Jack Sharkey
10. Peter Jackson

Rest whoknows. Honorable mention: John L Sullivan

But since the period under consideration covers everything from the end of the bare-nuckle era to the onset of modern boxing, the list really compares the uncomparable. Schmeling one could, with a bit of preparation, picture in a 2009 cruiserweight championship fight, Sullivan surely not. At best he'd make headlines in strongman competitions.

Are you suggesting that Sullivan lacked the athleticism to compete in boxing today, if he was trained and fought under today's conditions and rules? Schmeling could, but Sullivan could not?

Not at all. My point is rather different: Sullivan would have to learn the sport from scratch were he to compete today, Schmeling wouldn't.

[The Great John L]

Not at all. My point is rather different: Sullivan would have to learn the sport from scratch were he to compete today, Schmeling wouldn't.

And I guess you know that from watching the Youtube video of him and Corbett?

[HenryK]

Not at all. My point is rather different: Sullivan would have to learn the sport from scratch were he to compete today, Schmeling wouldn't.

And I guess you know that from watching the Youtube video of him and Corbett?

There is no film of Sullivan vs. Corbett to my knowledge.

[The Great John L]

Not at all. My point is rather different: Sullivan would have to learn the sport from scratch were he to compete today, Schmeling wouldn't.

And I guess you know that from watching the Youtube video of him and Corbett?

There is no film of Sullivan vs. Corbett to my knowledge.

There's a short film of them in full dress prior to the Jeffries fight I believe. It's pretty easy to find.

Just curious how you know that JLS would have to "learn the sport from scratch" in order to compete today?

[Mr E]

Viewing the question based on who I think would have beaten whom on everyone's respective best nights (as opposed to career achievement, etc.), I make it like this:

1-Jack Dempsey
2-Jack Johnson
3-Gene Tunney
4-Jim Jeffries
5-Jack Sharkey
6-Max Schmeling
7-Sam Langford
8-Harry Wills
9-Jess Willard
10-George Godfrey
11-Joe Jeannette
12-Sam McVey
13-Bob Fitsimmons
14-Jim Corbett
15-Peter Jackson
16-John L. Sullivan
17-Luis Firpo
18-Max Baer
19-Fred Fulton
20-Tommy Gibbons
21-Harry Greb
22-Kid Norfollk
23-Billy Miske
24-Tom Sharkey
25-Jim Braddock

Honorable Mention (rough chronological order): Jake Kilrain, Frank Slavin, Kid McCoy, Joe Choynski, Peter Maher, Marvin Hart, Phila. Jack O'Brien, Tommy Burns, Stanley Ketchel, Jack Dillon, Luther McCarty, Frank Moran, Gunboat Smith, Battling Levinsky, Georges Carpentier, Carl Morris, K.O. Bill Brennan, Tommy Loughran, Larry Gains, Mickey Walker, Paolino Uzcuden, Primo Carnera, Steve Hamas

Most Underrated: Jess Willard, Jack Sharkey

Most Overrated: Max Baer

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Viewing the question based on who I think would have beaten whom on everyone's respective best nights (as opposed to career achievement, etc.), I make it like this:

5-Jack Sharkey
10-George Godfrey

- Primo Carnera beat #5 & #10, and has more career wins than any on your list not named Langford, Jeannette, and Godfrey.

Just sayin'........

[Mr E]

I severely doubt that Carnera "beat" either Sharkey or Godfrey and I'd bet half a mortgage that he couldn't beat either one of those guys when they were at their best.

It seems that his wins over Uzcuden and Loughran, at least, were likely legitimate, so Carnera was by no means a bum. But he was not a great fighter IMO.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I severely doubt that Carnera "beat" either Sharkey or Godfrey and I'd bet half a mortgage that he couldn't beat either one of those guys when they were at their best.

It seems that his wins over Uzcuden and Loughran, at least, were likely legitimate, so Carnera was by no means a bum. But he was not a great fighter IMO.

- 9 fighters had beat Sharkey before Carnera knocked him cold. It was Sharkey's first defense of his title he lifted off Schmeling, so the question arises, was Sharkey ever at his best?

Same deal with Godfrey who has a string of notable DQ losses for low blows before Primo. Tapes of Sharkey and Godfrey are clear with Sharkey blasted into Oz and Godfrey spoiling every second of every minute by holding, butting rabbit punching, low blows, hitting on the break, doing everything under the sun to avoid Carnera boxing his ears off.

While you're searching the heavens for the best Sharkey and Godfrey there ever was, perhaps you can refer us to the boxing universe where fighters always meet each other at their best. I definitely want to hop a freighter, railcar, swim a river, do whatever it takes to smuggle myself into that universe.

Presumably all the tree trunks also have beer taps with hamburgers and BBQ hanging from low laying branches, beautiful women flocking in droves with everything being always hunky dory glorious.

[Robinson]

Carnera is a guy that looks better when i see fight for myself on film,
than when I read about him. Sure he was blown away in a gutsy though
one sided bout against Baer, but the guy was still credible...even though
his early fights were no doubt padded....but when has this not been
the case in the past...ok for American fighters to do this...just not
Mussolini's boy.

A big athletic guy with some skills like Carnera is always a threat, so the
Sharkey win is not neccesarily that suprising. In the case of Loughran
it was a great little man losing to a good big man, it happens.

I do not mind to watch old Carnera, far from my favourite, and i would not
favour him against many other champions or contenders, but I think he
gets a bad rap. Id favour him over a Willard any day.