How good was Carlos monzon?

[big lennox]

There seems to be no doubt that he was one of the greats, but I have actually seen very little footage of him. I was wondering if anyone on this forum:

1) saw him box,
2) watched him train
3) or knows people that did the above.

Was he as good as Hopkins and Hagler?

Would love to know more about him.

Cheers

Tom

[stujones]

Seen lots of him on tape, he was fantastic. I actually think he might have beaten Hagler. Style wise he would have given him problems.

A far tall Middleweight who used his height and reach well, excellent jab, cast iron chin.

[TerribleTerry]

A very good fighter (only ever watched him on tape, mind).

Tall, good straight shots, he could dictate a fight very well.

Didn't really float my boat stylistically though.

[bennie]

The best of his era (a long era), smoked like a trooper, ran flat out for 45 minutes on the road (15 rounds), controlled his temper in the ring, starred in a few movies, held the undisputed title, and would have reigned for many more years after he retired (Hugo Corro, a pretty poor Argentine, held the title shortly afterwards and Monzon would have definitely have busted up Minter and Vito, and beaten Hagler in 1979).
Remember, Monzon made 14 defences; Hagler made 12.
Threw his girlfriend off a balcony but went with her to the ground. She had previously shot him.

[Scrap]

Great Fighter, dont know why but see a lot of Him in Darren Barker DD

[Bard of Boxrec]

Monzon fascinates me, everyone talks about him as a great but you can hardly find any footage of him...also, what were his biggest fights? I'm not aware of any 'defining' fights that he was involved in, but then again I don't know a lot about that specific era at middleweight... did he have any clashes with other big names?

Edit, just checked his record and he is listed as having 3 defeats but they aren't marked.. who did he lose to?

[stujones]

His fight with Griffith was on commercially available DVD as part of the "boxers" package - in full also.

[n1ebf]

Threw his girlfriend off a balcony but went with her to the ground. She had previously shot him.

all sounds very south american to me....excuse my ignorance but is he dead now due to this, or did she die, did he do time.....I'm just curious about the story as others no doubt are....cheers!

[bennie]

Monzon fascinates me, everyone talks about him as a great but you can hardly find any footage of him...also, what were his biggest fights? I'm not aware of any 'defining' fights that he was involved in, but then again I don't know a lot about that specific era at middleweight... did he have any clashes with other big names?

Edit, just checked his record and he is listed as having 3 defeats but they aren't marked.. who did he lose to?

He lost early career fights and then went on a phenomenal unbeaten run and won the world middleweight title from Italian Golden Boy Nino Benvenuti in Italy. Nino taunted him at the weigh-in and an enraged Monzon, hairtrigger-tempered, vowed to knock him out in front of his own adoring public and he did just that. He had a penchant for destroying fighters in their own backyards and spent much of his time in Europe, lording it in Monaco, shagging the creme de la creme, while also finding the time to f uck up Bouttier, Bogs, Napoles, Tonna, Mundine (the good one) and his outstanding rival, Rodrigo Valdez, whom he licked twice.
He beat most of his challengers twice, in fact, and basically ran out of contenders when he dropped out of the game in 1977, with no natural outlet for his anger ahead.
He died in a car crash while on a weekend pass from jail.

PS: Yes, she died in the fall.

[Autobarn]

Defining fights? Griffith, Napoles and Benvenuti are in the Hall of Fame.

Valdez was Monzon's great rival, though. He was the genuine middleweight that Monzon had to beat to really cement his time as middleweight champion.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Monzon fascinates me, everyone talks about him as a great but you can hardly find any footage of him...also, what were his biggest fights? I'm not aware of any 'defining' fights that he was involved in, but then again I don't know a lot about that specific era at middleweight... did he have any clashes with other big names?

Edit, just checked his record and he is listed as having 3 defeats but they aren't marked.. who did he lose to?

He lost early career fights and then went on a phenomenal unbeaten run and won the world middleweight title from Italian Golden Boy Nino Benvenuti in Italy. Nino taunted him at the weigh-in and an enraged Monzon, hairtrigger-tempered, vowed to knock him out in front of his own adoring public and he did just that. He had a penchant for destroying fighters in their own backyards and spent much of his time in Europe, lording it in Monaco, shagging the creme de la creme, while also finding the time to f uck up Bouttier, Bogs, Napoles, Tonna, Mundine (the good one) and his outstanding rival, Rodrigo Valdez, whom he licked twice.
He beat most of his challengers twice, in fact, and basically ran out of contenders when he dropped out of the game in 1977, with no natural outlet for his anger ahead.
He died in a car crash while on a weekend pass from jail.

PS: Yes, she died in the fall.

Interestingly (well to me), Tonna was Charlie Magri's cousin once removed.

[Wales]

Funny this thread has cropped up. There was feck all on TV last night, and I’ve been getting quite disillusioned with boxing of late. Feel we’ve gone from a resurgence, to a lull again with fights cancelled and the crop of guys coming through nowhere near as exciting as the guys we had recently. There is also less excitement and potential, for me anyway, at British level than there has been between say 2001-2007. Anyway, to cheer myself up I slapped on haggler Hearns. What a fight, however, for someone too young to remember these guys fighting in their pomp it always brings up the question how would they have fared against either Jones Jr or Hopkins at middleweight… of course, I saw this thread, and immediately you throw Monzon into the mix. Sometimes to lift the depression ahead, you need to look behind.

Incidentally, is there a better first round than haggler hearns?

[Poncey]

Monzon fascinates me, everyone talks about him as a great but you can hardly find any footage of him...also, what were his biggest fights? I'm not aware of any 'defining' fights that he was involved in, but then again I don't know a lot about that specific era at middleweight... did he have any clashes with other big names?

Edit, just checked his record and he is listed as having 3 defeats but they aren't marked.. who did he lose to?

He lost early career fights and then went on a phenomenal unbeaten run and won the world middleweight title from Italian Golden Boy Nino Benvenuti in Italy. Nino taunted him at the weigh-in and an enraged Monzon, hairtrigger-tempered, vowed to knock him out in front of his own adoring public and he did just that. He had a penchant for destroying fighters in their own backyards and spent much of his time in Europe, lording it in Monaco, shagging the creme de la creme, while also finding the time to f uck up Bouttier, Bogs, Napoles, Tonna, Mundine (the good one) and his outstanding rival, Rodrigo Valdez, whom he licked twice.
He beat most of his challengers twice, in fact, and basically ran out of contenders when he dropped out of the game in 1977, with no natural outlet for his anger ahead.
He died in a car crash while on a weekend pass from jail.

PS: Yes, she died in the fall.

Didn't he drive his porsche into the back of a digger or skip?

[bennie]

Monzon fascinates me, everyone talks about him as a great but you can hardly find any footage of him...also, what were his biggest fights? I'm not aware of any 'defining' fights that he was involved in, but then again I don't know a lot about that specific era at middleweight... did he have any clashes with other big names?

Edit, just checked his record and he is listed as having 3 defeats but they aren't marked.. who did he lose to?

He lost early career fights and then went on a phenomenal unbeaten run and won the world middleweight title from Italian Golden Boy Nino Benvenuti in Italy. Nino taunted him at the weigh-in and an enraged Monzon, hairtrigger-tempered, vowed to knock him out in front of his own adoring public and he did just that. He had a penchant for destroying fighters in their own backyards and spent much of his time in Europe, lording it in Monaco, shagging the creme de la creme, while also finding the time to f uck up Bouttier, Bogs, Napoles, Tonna, Mundine (the good one) and his outstanding rival, Rodrigo Valdez, whom he licked twice.
He beat most of his challengers twice, in fact, and basically ran out of contenders when he dropped out of the game in 1977, with no natural outlet for his anger ahead.
He died in a car crash while on a weekend pass from jail.

PS: Yes, she died in the fall.

Didn't he drive his porsche into the back of a digger or skip?

That was Salvador Sanchez. Carlos went over a cliff or something. He was always destined to die like that: in a fireball for a fireball.

[Wales]

How would you rank Haggler, Hopkins, jones Jr and Monzon bennie, in terms of facing each other as appose to achievment (at middleweight).

[bennie]

How would you rank Haggler, Hopkins, jones Jr and Monzon bennie, in terms of facing each other as appose to achievment (at middleweight).

Well, a fighter can only be the best of his time and the answer to your question can never be proven or disproven. I've always believed that longevity as champion is the key to greatnesss, and Jones, even though he beat Hopkins (well, he outsprinted him), was not champion at the weight long enough, in my opinion, even though he went on to prove himself the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time by beating John Ruiz (source: Claude Abrams).
Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon reigned for years and ducked nobody, of course, so comparing those three is a bit easier. Hagler liked beating the Philly middleweights and is thus favoured over the punch-picking, iron-jawed, clever Hopkins. Yes, Roberto Duran exposed Marvin's mechanical style, somewhat, but Monzon was even more mechanical but boasted the same stamina, iron jaw and ruthlessness. All three men boasted these assets.
I would probably leans towards Hagler (against Monzon) as the best in terms of their peak but Monzon is perenenially underrated and didn't lose to a gifted welterweight star (Napoles) as Hagler did in Leonard. He destroyed Napoles.
Incidentally, Hagler, in his entire career, NEVER entered a fight as an underdog.

[Counter-puncher]

How would you rank Haggler, Hopkins, jones Jr and Monzon bennie, in terms of facing each other as appose to achievment (at middleweight).

Well, a fighter can only be the best of his time and the answer to your question can never be proven or disproven. I've always believed that longevity as champion is the key to greatnesss, and Jones, even though he beat Hopkins (well, he outsprinted him), was not champion at the weight long enough, in my opinion, even though he went on to prove himself the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time by beating John Ruiz (source: Claude Abrams).
Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon reigned for years and ducked nobody, of course, so comparing those three is a bit easier. Hagler liked beating the Philly middleweights and is thus favoured over the punch-picking, iron-jawed, clever Hopkins. Yes, Roberto Duran exposed Marvin's mechanical style, somewhat, but Monzon was even more mechanical but boasted the same stamina, iron jaw and ruthlessness. All three men boasted these assets.
I would probably leans towards Hagler (against Monzon) as the best in terms of their peak but Monzon is perenenially underrated and didn't lose to a gifted welterweight star (Napoles) as Hagler did in Leonard. He destroyed Napoles.
Incidentally, Hagler, in his entire career, NEVER entered a fight as an underdog.

good post mate, with a @ the abrams dig.

[alexpaterson]

I've seen the Napoles fight he uses his height well but was a bit of a nutter he drank and smoked in his corner (not in the Napoles fight though) but he seemed a very good boxer would fancy him to beat Hagler keep him at range and win on points but would rank Hagler higher styles ake fights though

[bennie]

How would you rank Haggler, Hopkins, jones Jr and Monzon bennie, in terms of facing each other as appose to achievment (at middleweight).

Well, a fighter can only be the best of his time and the answer to your question can never be proven or disproven. I've always believed that longevity as champion is the key to greatnesss, and Jones, even though he beat Hopkins (well, he outsprinted him), was not champion at the weight long enough, in my opinion, even though he went on to prove himself the greatest pound for pound fighter of all time by beating John Ruiz (source: Claude Abrams).
Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon reigned for years and ducked nobody, of course, so comparing those three is a bit easier. Hagler liked beating the Philly middleweights and is thus favoured over the punch-picking, iron-jawed, clever Hopkins. Yes, Roberto Duran exposed Marvin's mechanical style, somewhat, but Monzon was even more mechanical but boasted the same stamina, iron jaw and ruthlessness. All three men boasted these assets.
I would probably leans towards Hagler (against Monzon) as the best in terms of their peak but Monzon is perenenially underrated and didn't lose to a gifted welterweight star (Napoles) as Hagler did in Leonard. He destroyed Napoles.
Incidentally, Hagler, in his entire career, NEVER entered a fight as an underdog.

good post mate, with a @ the abrams dig.

That's what he said. He reduced BN to a laughing stock.

[bennie]

I've seen the Napoles fight he uses his height well but was a bit of a nutter he drank and smoked in his corner (not in the Napoles fight though) but he seemed a very good boxer would fancy him to beat Hagler keep him at range and win on points but would rank Hagler higher styles ake fights though

He never drank or smoked in the corner. He trained hard, he fought hard and he played hard.
He was always in fantastic shape.

[DavidPayne]

That's what he said. He reduced BN to a laughing stock.

Mmm. At the time it was a massive achievement and he did seem untouchable but it did strike me as a leap, given the lack of competition at Light-Heavyweight he faced, that anyone could shunt him to number 1 even in the apparent bewilderment that he'd beaten Ruiz.

[Poncey]

Watched a HBO doc from 84 a few months back presented by Cobb and Merchant. Monzon didn't even make the top 5. Just got an honourable mention.

He wasn't the best for me, but he was the second best (I haven't seen anywhere near enough of Greb to comment).

[Autobarn]

Monzon was pretty unique. He used his reach brilliantly. Some say he had a light heavyweight body and welterweight legs. There has never been another Argie fighter like him. He is nothing like the squat, short armed, round faced, barrel chested, stoop shouldered countrymen such as Victor Galindez, Jorge Castro, Omar Narvaez, Julio Cesar Vazquez, Victor Ramirez. His build, his upright style, his face, even his skin, is nothing like theirs. I believe Monzon was of Indian blood.

[Datsue]

I've only seen the first Benvenuti fight but he looked like the kind of guy that makes you fight his fight no matter what you actually want to do -- strong & awkward. At first he seems to have no footwork & looks like punches a bit like something is wrong with his arms, stands too straight up & rarely looked like he was exerting himself.

But on the flipside he was obviously a master of pacing a fifteen round fight, he was obviously a far harder hitter than he looked, had a deceptive cleverness in defence & he seemed to be actually indestructible. At times Benvenuti hits him flush with the left hook & just stares at him, as if to say "What, are you not gonna fall?" Also it was obvious that he had a mean streak about fifteen miles wide; once Nino (a fighter I've always admired) starts to crumble, he just won't let him rest, amping up the pressure by almost imperceptible degrees without expending any more calories than were necessary.

Not a style I'd enjoy watching that much more of, mind, but I bet he was a right bastard to beat & could imagine him doing a number on a lot of great middleweights of the past over fifteen rounds. A great fighter.

[black panther]

A very good fighter (only ever watched him on tape, mind).

Tall, good straight shots, he could dictate a fight very well.

Didn't really float my boat stylistically though.

Same here, he always looked a bit awkward but he was a beast of middlweight which always gave him an advantage I felt. I'd imagine he'd have a noticeable size advantage over Hagler but The Marvelous One is one of my favourite fighters so I refuse to pick against him