Hearns vs Leonard II: For Hearns WBC Super welter title in

[elmersalsa]

What if instead of Hearns vs Duran of June 15, 1984 WBC Super Welterweight Title Bout would have been Hearns vs Leonard II?

Would Leonard would have been BLASTED just like Hearns did Duran?
Leonard NEVER looked that good at 154lbs...Would he beat Tommy in the rematch that night?
Will the Leonard that beat Kevin Howard months earlier beat Tommy again that night?

What are your thoughts?

I believe that the Hearns of 1984 at 154lbs would have also BLAST Leonard that night in a rematch.

Hearns at super welterweight was more stronger and faster than Leonard. That is why I pick Tommy in this rematch.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hearns by Ko, I honestly feel that Tommy was the better fighter. I can't rank him over ray because of circumstances, but the overriding opinion that these guys aren't close is a joke.

Leonard deserves all the credit in the world for eating thunder and pulling out their first fight. But I don't see him doing it again. He couldn't when Tommy was supposed to be shot and like Holyfield/Tyson time has made the fights result insignificant and apologists claim Leonard & tyson were shot. When in fact they ran straight into guys who had their number.

As much as i hate Leonard, he had loads of skill and balls in the ring(he had the sack of a Ken doll in negotiations). But he could never box with Tommy and hearns didn't even sit down on his punches while nearly putting out ray's eye.

Tommy KO4

[Goodnight, Irene]

Hearns in nine, with the bout to be more competitive than the fellows above me believe. Leonard was out-of-form & not insignificantly rusted, which showed against Howard. Hearns was at the peak of his powers at 154lbs, & a hot-sh!t Leonard needed everything he had to pull it out in their Welterweight battle.

In 1984, Hearns had progressed, while Leonard had slid, &, as mentioned, this weight was Hearns' turf. Why, then, do I imagine it a (fairly) competitive fight? Few fighters arose to a big occasion as did Leonard (something with which Howard did not present him), & I class him as the more versatile, overall superior fighter to Hearns. These attributes only take you so far, however, &, in & this case, the answer is to the ninth, when Hearns drops Leonard early in the round, before stopping him against the ropes, on his feet.

Cards read 5-2-1, 5-3, 5-3 Hearns at 2:08 of round number nine.

[NazNaci1]

I think Ray would still prevail, he proved twice he could take Tommy's right hand.

Yes ofc Tommy dropped him twice in the return (which even Ray acknowledges, he won - he just didnt get the decision) but Ray had balls, chin and determination and after each of those knockdowns he still had the presence of mind to cover up, fiddle etc his way through.

Duran, another genuine 'Great' fighter, reverted to instinct, hurt, and being pounded was winging wildy, playing into Tommy's hands.

Only one fighter could have done that to Roberto, and that was Tommy.

The difference is Ray would be aware that Tommy comes out blazing, so to expect him to stand there and let Tommy tee off on him is not really an assumption I'd agree with. Ray would be cautious and look to pick his shots and avoid punching with Tommy.

His pet punch would be the left hook to the ribs.

Ray could match Tommy for speed, skills, punch pretty hard and had the better chin. To counter balance that Tommy had the reach and height, aswell as the crippling power we all loved :-)

As far as I am concerned they are 1 - 1. This would be a tremendous battle, wish I could've seen it :)

Could Tommy KO Ray early? In my opinion, no way.

Ray by late stoppage, in about 10 brutal rounds.

PS I do accept the point of view that SRL was rusty and TH was at his best fighting weight, however SRL is a fighter who rose to the occasion and fought with the adrenalin pumping, the confidence and the crowds energy. He would take a few rounds to get into his stride but then, i believe, he'd 'go to work'.

Ciao

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think Ray would still prevail, he proved twice he could take Tommy's right hand.

Yes ofc Tommy dropped him twice in the return (which even Ray acknowledges, he won - he just didnt get the decision) but Ray had balls, chin and determination and after each of those knockdowns he still had the presence of mind to cover up, fiddle etc his way through.

Duran, another genuine 'Great' fighter, reverted to instinct, hurt, and being pounded was winging wildy, playing into Tommy's hands.

Only one fighter could have done that to Roberto, and that was Tommy.

The difference is Ray would be aware that Tommy comes out blazing, so to expect him to stand there and let Tommy tee off on him is not really an assumption I'd agree with. Ray would be cautious and look to pick his shots and avoid punching with Tommy.

His pet punch would be the left hook to the ribs.

Ray could match Tommy for speed, skills, punch pretty hard and had the better chin. To counter balance that Tommy had the reach and height, aswell as the crippling power we all loved :-)

As far as I am concerned they are 1 - 1. This would be a tremendous battle, wish I could've seen it :)

Could Tommy KO Ray early? In my opinion, no way.

Ray by late stoppage, in about 10 brutal rounds.

PS I do accept the point of view that SRL was rusty and TH was at his best fighting weight, however SRL is a fighter who rose to the occasion and fought with the adrenalin pumping, the confidence and the crowds energy. He would take a few rounds to get into his stride but then, i believe, he'd 'go to work'.

Ciao

We agree on several points, but, at the top of his game, in a division which better-suited Leonard than the less-experienced Hearns, it took everything Sugar Ray had to beat The Hitman. Surely, under these conditions, which are heavily, heavily-slanted in Hearns' favour, it's a bridge too far?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I believe that the Hearns of 1984 at 154lbs would have also BLAST Leonard that night in a rematch.

Hearns at super welterweight was more stronger and faster than Leonard. That is why I pick Tommy in this rematch.

- See no evidence that he was stronger or faster than Leonard at the weight, nor was he blasting everyone out of the 154 division.

He's taller, got the longer reach and the bigger punch, just like the first fight. I happen to be in the camp that he over trained for that fight which left him bankrupt of stamina in the late rounds when he needed his legs under him the most.

Always thought Hearns would win the rematch by the same way he almost won the first bout, boxing, but being smarter about it. Leonard might be more willing to set up his own punch early knowing he could hurt Hearns, so no way Tommy walks over Ray. This of course ignores that Ray wasn't really healthy enough to fight in 84. The real Ray in 84 wouldn't fight Tommy for that reason, so the real match is moot.

Leonard never came at guys like Hearns the way Duran did, who BTW is alleged to have thrown this fight. I don't buy it, but it sure looks suspiciously like the sluggish Duran filled with 2 steak dinners that stepped into the ring in the Leonard rematch. He was running hot and cold at that stage of his career and Hearns caught him at the right time.

[Ezzard]

I believe this would always be a 50-50 fight. Both men would always raise their game against one another.

The Duran blow out was spectacular and possibly the most thrilling sporting moment of my youth. BUT Duran was so inconsistent in the 1980s. He was way above his best weight, not in the best of shape and seemed uninterested in trying to execute a fight plan that might actually work. At his best Duran had a great defence, could slip a lead, counter to the body and make the ring seem like a phone booth. In many ways the prototype to beat Hearns. He didn’t even get close on that night. I guess he played into Tommy’s hands just as Tommy would play into Marvin’s.

Ray never looked totally convincing above 147 (by his own high standards). The Kalule win is underrated but beyond that he rarely shut anyone out as he had been doing at 147 and was surprisingly easy to reach… actually no, he was never easy to reach just easier to reach for a guy who was so good. Sometimes though I think people get the wrong idea about Leonard. They remember all the movement against Duran and Hagler but Leonard fought most of his fights flat-footed (Duran I, Hearns I and II and to some extent Benitez). Also whilst there is some milling on the retreat, Leonard often moved away, drew his opponent to him and then planted his feet to unload (essentially what he did to Hagler). He was slick, but he was also an offensive fighter.

[yiddle]

hearns wins by tko

[Collins2000]

Leonard never came at guys like Hearns the way Duran did, who BTW is alleged to have thrown this fight.

More nonsense.

[dr_devious]

I go for Hearns on points. The fight would have been over 12 rounds, which would have suited Tommy more than the 15 round distance of the first fight. He was ahead on points after 12 in the first fight, and I think be second time around as well in 1984. He was on my card in the real re-match 5 years later

[dempseyfire]

I believe this would always be a 50-50 fight. Both men would always raise their game against one another.

The Duran blow out was spectacular and possibly the most thrilling sporting moment of my youth. BUT Duran was so inconsistent in the 1980s. He was way above his best weight, not in the best of shape and seemed uninterested in trying to execute a fight plan that might actually work. At his best Duran had a great defence, could slip a lead, counter to the body and make the ring seem like a phone booth. In many ways the prototype to beat Hearns. He didn’t even get close on that night. I guess he played into Tommy’s hands just as Tommy would play into Marvin’s.

Ray never looked totally convincing above 147 (by his own high standards). The Kalule win is underrated but beyond that he rarely shut anyone out as he had been doing at 147 and was surprisingly easy to reach… actually no, he was never easy to reach just easier to reach for a guy who was so good. Sometimes though I think people get the wrong idea about Leonard. They remember all the movement against Duran and Hagler but Leonard fought most of his fights flat-footed (Duran I, Hearns I and II and to some extent Benitez). Also whilst there is some milling on the retreat, Leonard often moved away, drew his opponent to him and then planted his feet to unload (essentially what he did to Hagler). He was slick, but he was also an offensive fighter.

I agree . .very even matchup. Leonard getting stopped in 4 rounds? No way.

Hearns was robbed big time in the 1989 rematch but that fight doesn't really mean much.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Leonard would rise, & he'd be game, but, c'mon, guys --- it took everything he had, at the top of his game, to best a greener Hearns at Welter. I consider it pretty unlikely Hearns could lose this hypothetical. Either Leonard gets stopped, or drops a decision. With the rust, & memory of Hearns' power, he'd be gun-shy as hell, IMO. Leonard was crafty & intelligent, & he'd make a fight of it, but I can only see one victor under these slanted conditions.

[Elton John]

Tommy takes him out in quick spectacular fashion and anyone that denies it is being most disingenous.

A great analogy i use is between Tommy and another famous fighter out of Detroit-Joe louis from the Schmeling fight.

A return match would turn out far different with the previous loser out to avenge himself. In this case, Ray Leonard simply would not allow for such a thing.

many "believe" Ray Leonard capable of taking Tommy's right hand for the fact that he stood up under it the first time without any major problems or anything close to it. This time around with TH at a very healthy 154, I see Tommy's jab scoring quite well to the head, not only scoring with it but hurting him as well and once you've hurt ray Leonard, you've beaten him mentally.

At this point, Leonard's game plan starts tofall apart. He knows that not only must he contend with the right hand but figure how to get past his jab, all the while sustaining facial damage.

But wait, there's more.... I see Tommy drilling leonard with hooks to the ribs. This is hurting Ray remendously and by this time he's opened Leonard up, drilling him faster than lightning.

It's no later than the third round and leonard is on the canvas from a delivery too fast to count. Ray degresses quickly from that point on and two trips later and the fight is over with.

Hearns in four rounds just like they said

[Collins2000]

Hilarious stuff.

[Ezzard]

I believe this would always be a 50-50 fight. Both men would always raise their game against one another.

The Duran blow out was spectacular and possibly the most thrilling sporting moment of my youth. BUT Duran was so inconsistent in the 1980s. He was way above his best weight, not in the best of shape and seemed uninterested in trying to execute a fight plan that might actually work. At his best Duran had a great defence, could slip a lead, counter to the body and make the ring seem like a phone booth. In many ways the prototype to beat Hearns. He didn’t even get close on that night. I guess he played into Tommy’s hands just as Tommy would play into Marvin’s.

Ray never looked totally convincing above 147 (by his own high standards). The Kalule win is underrated but beyond that he rarely shut anyone out as he had been doing at 147 and was surprisingly easy to reach… actually no, he was never easy to reach just easier to reach for a guy who was so good. Sometimes though I think people get the wrong idea about Leonard. They remember all the movement against Duran and Hagler but Leonard fought most of his fights flat-footed (Duran I, Hearns I and II and to some extent Benitez). Also whilst there is some milling on the retreat, Leonard often moved away, drew his opponent to him and then planted his feet to unload (essentially what he did to Hagler). He was slick, but he was also an offensive fighter.

I agree . .very even matchup. Leonard getting stopped in 4 rounds? No way.

Hearns was robbed big time in the 1989 rematch but that fight doesn't really mean much.

I think the second fight is important. They were both past their best (I thought Hearns was shot and had no chance). But it was two greats meeting one another at a similar time in their career.

What's your take?

[Elton John]

I think the second fight is important. They were both past their best (I thought Hearns was shot and had no chance). But it was two greats meeting one another at a similar time in their career.

What's your take?

My take is you're full of bologne as usual and that you never know what the hell youre talking about. Why do you even come on boxrec for? Why do you even get up in the morning?

Hearns had just been flattened by Barkley and nearly flattened again after that with Kinchen and nearly flattened by Roldan. That makes three straight very shaky performances of which I'm postive Ray took note of and call out Tommy. How brave of him

[elmersalsa]

I think that Hearns wins this fight BIG AND BY KO because at 154lbs, he was stronger and much faster. It was the perfect weight class for him. He was a MONSTER at super welterweight. I don't see many fighters in history beating him at this weight class.

Sugar Ray was NEVER the same after 1982. His best years were from 1979 to 1982. When he came back to fight, he looked dreadful. Even in his prime, when he beat Ayub Kalule, he did not look good at super welterweight. Kalule was tagging him. Now, I imagine someone as good as Hearns. It would probably be the same thing that happened to the great Roberto Duran and Fred Hutchings. Scary knockouts.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Now, I imagine someone as good as Hearns. It would probably be the same thing that happened to the great Roberto Duran and Fred Hutchings. Scary knockouts.

- Hearns had a 50% KO ratio in 10 fights at 150 or above by the end of 1984.

Apparently the other 50% weren't so scared that they couldn't go the distance.

[NazNaci1]

Tommy takes him out in quick spectacular fashion and anyone that denies it is being most disingenous.

A great analogy i use is between Tommy and another famous fighter out of Detroit-Joe louis from the Schmeling fight.

A return match would turn out far different with the previous loser out to avenge himself. In this case, Ray Leonard simply would not allow for such a thing.

many "believe" Ray Leonard capable of taking Tommy's right hand for the fact that he stood up under it the first time without any major problems or anything close to it. This time around with TH at a very healthy 154, I see Tommy's jab scoring quite well to the head, not only scoring with it but hurting him as well and once you've hurt ray Leonard, you've beaten him mentally.

At this point, Leonard's game plan starts tofall apart. He knows that not only must he contend with the right hand but figure how to get past his jab, all the while sustaining facial damage.

But wait, there's more.... I see Tommy drilling leonard with hooks to the ribs. This is hurting Ray remendously and by this time he's opened Leonard up, drilling him faster than lightning.

It's no later than the third round and leonard is on the canvas from a delivery too fast to count. Ray degresses quickly from that point on and two trips later and the fight is over with.

Hearns in four rounds just like they said

I'd have to say I'd STRONGLY disagree with this assesment.

Ray wasnt intimidated the first time round and he certainly wouldn't be in this 'fantasy' match. After a cautious first few rounds, he begins to get closer to Tommy....the ring rust is dripping off and the grit, confidence, speed is coming through....TH is now struggling, the energy is becoming sapped, the power dissapaitiing and those body shots are still remembered.

As much as i love both fighters, I cant see TH blasting Ray out of there - If anyone might get stopped early, its gonna be Hearns.

To quote Apollo Creed, TH 'fights great' but SRL ' is a great fighter'. Whether you like or dislike either of them is irrelevant, personally I love the pair of them.

[Elton John]

I'd have to say I'd STRONGLY disagree with this assesment.

Ray wasnt intimidated the first time round and he certainly wouldn't be in this 'fantasy' match. After a cautious first few rounds, he begins to get closer to Tommy....the ring rust is dripping off and the grit, confidence, speed is coming through....TH is now struggling, the energy is becoming sapped, the power dissapaitiing and those body shots are still remembered.

As much as i love both fighters, I cant see TH blasting Ray out of there - If anyone might get stopped early, its gonna be Hearns.

To quote Apollo Creed, TH 'fights great' but SRL ' is a great fighter'. Whether you like or dislike either of them is irrelevant, personally I love the pair of them.

Are you kidding me? Talk about wishful thinking!! Thomas would him apart the way Tyson tore a hole in Robbin Given's ass

Do you not realize that Leonard had fought just a month before, in the ring with a much smaller 20-4 fighter named kevin Howard who dropped Ray and sent him back to retirement?

Did I say 4 rounds? I'm sorry, I meant 3 rounds

[NazNaci1]

I'd have to say I'd STRONGLY disagree with this assesment.

Ray wasnt intimidated the first time round and he certainly wouldn't be in this 'fantasy' match. After a cautious first few rounds, he begins to get closer to Tommy....the ring rust is dripping off and the grit, confidence, speed is coming through....TH is now struggling, the energy is becoming sapped, the power dissapaitiing and those body shots are still remembered.

As much as i love both fighters, I cant see TH blasting Ray out of there - If anyone might get stopped early, its gonna be Hearns.

To quote Apollo Creed, TH 'fights great' but SRL ' is a great fighter'. Whether you like or dislike either of them is irrelevant, personally I love the pair of them.

Are you kidding me? Talk about wishful thinking!! Thomas would him apart the way Tyson tore a hole in Robbin Given's ass

Do you not realize that Leonard had fought just a month before, in the ring with a much smaller 20-4 fighter named kevin Howard who dropped Ray and sent him back to retirement?

Did I say 4 rounds? I'm sorry, I meant 3 rounds

Oh you mean similiar to when Roldan, almost stopped Hearns? Are maybe the way Barkley did? No, wait, you must mean kinda like when Hagler dropped and stopped him? Or even when Ray stopped?

I sense a theme and you aint getting it.

Well we can still agree to disagree, just dont get too upset about a 'hypothetical' fight 8)

[NazNaci1]

I'd have to say I'd STRONGLY disagree with this assesment.

Ray wasnt intimidated the first time round and he certainly wouldn't be in this 'fantasy' match. After a cautious first few rounds, he begins to get closer to Tommy....the ring rust is dripping off and the grit, confidence, speed is coming through....TH is now struggling, the energy is becoming sapped, the power dissapaitiing and those body shots are still remembered.

As much as i love both fighters, I cant see TH blasting Ray out of there - If anyone might get stopped early, its gonna be Hearns.

To quote Apollo Creed, TH 'fights great' but SRL ' is a great fighter'. Whether you like or dislike either of them is irrelevant, personally I love the pair of them.

Are you kidding me? Talk about wishful thinking!! Thomas would him apart the way Tyson tore a hole in Robbin Given's ass

Do you not realize that Leonard had fought just a month before, in the ring with a much smaller 20-4 fighter named kevin Howard who dropped Ray and sent him back to retirement?

Did I say 4 rounds? I'm sorry, I meant 3 rounds

Oh you mean similiar to when Roldan, almost stopped Hearns? Or maybe the way Barkley did? No, wait, you must mean kinda like when Hagler dropped and stopped him? Possibly even when Ray stopped him?

I sense a theme and you aint getting it.

Well we can still agree to disagree, just dont get too upset about a 'hypothetical' fight 8)

[Elton John]

Oh you mean similiar to when Roldan, almost stopped Hearns? Or maybe the way Barkley did? No, wait, you must mean kinda like when Hagler dropped and stopped him? Possibly even when Ray stopped him?

I sense a theme and you aint getting it.

Well we can still agree to disagree, just dont get too upset about a 'hypothetical' fight 8)

Read more closely...June 15, 1984 as it says at the top not May 1988

Did you not read before responding? Let's not try to complicate matter OKAY??

you also "missed" the fact that Leonard in action just one month before. A 20-4 fighter beefing up to make 154 putting the overrated media brat on his as, sending him from the sport with his tail between his legs...yet you somehow believe Ray capable of the following:

"After a cautious first few rounds, he begins to get closer to Tommy....the ring rust is dripping off and the grit, confidence, speed is coming through....TH is now struggling, the energy is becoming sapped, the power dissapaitiing and those body shots are still remembered.

As much as i love both fighters, I cant see TH blasting Ray out of there - If anyone might get stopped early, its gonna be Hearns".


Do you comprehend how utterly unrealstic your scenario come across? You're living in a fantasy world. Perhaps you write fiction novels for a living. Do you?

Just because you can't bear the thought of your man biting the dust but please try and be more realistic for a change

[Syntax Error]

Leonard was only 28 in 1984 & nobody KOs a 28 year old Ray Leonard IMO.

I could see Hearns winning on points, especially if the fight was over 12 rounds & Ray was making a comeback, but I just can't see him being KO'd; his chin was too sound & his stamina was too good.

[Elton John]

Leonard was only 28 in 1984 & nobody KOs a 28 year old Ray Leonard IMO.

I could see Hearns winning on points, especially if the fight was over 12 rounds & Ray was making a comeback, but I just can't see him being KO'd; his chin was too sound & his stamina was too good.

Why not? can you prove it?

Was not the same thing said when Duran entered the ring against Hearns?

I distinctly remember the words "No one knocks out Duran"

Yet he was knocked out in round two.

So how can you be sure Ray Leonard would also not be given the same treatment since I and others doubt his ability to take it is in the same league as Duran

Do you think you might be mistaken?