Hagler vs Monzon

[Adamj1987]

How would this fight have panned out
hagler has stated if he could fight any other middleweight it would be him because he was the best
i dont know much about monzon only seen 2 fights maybe others could enlighten me

[Robinson]

I think this would be pretty cool.

I intend to watch Monzon vs Valdez this weekend.
Been awhile since Ive seen those bouts.

Im always a Hagler fan. But its a close run I think.

I'll play it safe and say Hagler lands a good decision.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I think this would be pretty cool.

I intend to watch Monzon vs Valdez this weekend.
Been awhile since Ive seen those bouts.

Im always a Hagler fan. But its a close run I think.

I'll play it safe and say Hagler lands a good decision.

Not sure that bet is all that safe ;)

I will elaborate on this one when more time permits. As mythical match-ups go, this is one of those old chestnuts --- like a comfortable, aged pair of shoes you can always slip easily into...

[yiddle]

hagler on pts

[giacomino]

Was a huge fan of both, watched a ton of Hagler fights and a handful of Monzon title defenses. Would have been a great fight but I would take Monzon over 15 rds, fairly close

[BoxBuzz]

Anything Sugar Ray could sneak through the back door and steal, Carlos could have by simply walking through the front door, placing the order, writing the check and setting the delivery date.

[bollox]

Isn't it a pity their careers overlapped only at the beginning and at the end respectively. Monzon by close UD over 15

p.s. I still rate both fighters' title defences as worth more than the sum of the defences record holder Hopkins. By far

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Marvin by crazy close decision. If they fought three times, it might be three split decisions. Hagler was a better in fighter and I think he would get inside more often than Carlos would keep him on the end of his stick. They both have amazing chins. Really tough fight.

[Elton John]

Monzon great. The only middleweights that could top him in a fight are Hagler, Jones, Cerdan, Robinson, Tiger, and Greb

[allworld80]

No clue who wins, and don't really care. What I would give to have seen it though.

[Argentine]

Monzon UD

[Goodnight, Irene]

Monzon UD

Agreed, I don't think Hagler would have dealt with Monzon well early on, &, while the later rounds would be thrown back & forth, it's that Monzon jab & reach early which set the platform for a close, but fair, UD. Monzon, I have always felt, was just the better fighter all-round, & he really made so few mistakes.

Hagler makes him work for it, but doesn't truly threaten the outcome.

[Elton John]

Monzon UD

Agreed, I don't think Hagler would have dealt with Monzon well early on, &, while the later rounds would be thrown back & forth, it's that Monzon jab & reach early which set the platform for a close, but fair, UD. Monzon, I have always felt, was just the better fighter all-round, & he really made so few mistakes.

Hagler makes him work for it, but doesn't truly threaten the outcome.

We just finished a similar topic over at another forum

GI have you considered the problems Hagler would make for Monzon just trying to adjust to the southpaw style? I believe it is Hagler's right jab that would be the determining factor here as Hagler has faced far more righties than Monzon has faced lefties. Reach of both is virtually even but Marvin's more effective from what I've seen. Monzon's more used to measure and set up the right while Hagler's I've seen has required stitches to close the wounds. Marvin also with the better handspeed. I'd be very surprised to see Monzon take this one.

[Syntax Error]

I say Monzon on points.

Apart from Hearns (whom he decimated), Marvin had this frustrating knack of paying his greater opponents too much respect, thus leading him to struggle in fights that he should maybe have won much more easily.

He would have payed Monzon lots of respect (& quite rightly, he's the greatest MW ever for me) & although I'm not saying he would have handed the fight on a plate to Monzon, it may have led to Marvin being a bit too tentative at times.

[Elton John]

I say Monzon on points.

Apart from Hearns (whom he decimated), Marvin had this frustrating knack of paying his greater opponents too much respect, thus leading him to struggle in fights that he should maybe have won much more easily.

He would have payed Monzon lots of respect (& quite rightly, he's the greatest MW ever for me) & although I'm not saying he would have handed the fight on a plate to Monzon, it may have led to Marvin being a bit too tentative at times.

And what if he chose not to pay respect to him in the ring? how do you even know he's going to pay Monzon respect if he didnt pay Hearns any respect?

Hearns was surely far more of a challenge than Duran. Younger, faster, sharper, taller, longer reach, more damaging puncher

So why did Hagler not shrink away as Thomas was firing away with both hands? Your claim makes no sense

Plus, how does monzon get around Hagler's left handed style?

[Syntax Error]

I say Monzon on points.

Apart from Hearns (whom he decimated), Marvin had this frustrating knack of paying his greater opponents too much respect, thus leading him to struggle in fights that he should maybe have won much more easily.

He would have payed Monzon lots of respect (& quite rightly, he's the greatest MW ever for me) & although I'm not saying he would have handed the fight on a plate to Monzon, it may have led to Marvin being a bit too tentative at times.

And what if he chose not to pay respect to him in the ring? how do you even know he's going to pay Monzon respect if he didnt pay Hearns any respect?

Hearns was surely far more of a challenge than Duran. Younger, faster, sharper, taller, longer reach, more damaging puncher

So why did Hagler not shrink away as Thomas was firing away with both hands? Your claim makes no sense

Plus, how does monzon get around Hagler's left handed style?

Look, nobody can be right or wrong when you are talking about hypothetical scenarios, it's just simply an opinion that you can choose to agree with or not.

I happen to think that Hagler would have paid Monzon huge respect, he's even alluded to that himself previously; I happen to think that Monzon is a superior MW than Hearns ever was.

Maybe the reason why Marvin didn't respect Hearns as much was because Tommy came out blasting, wobbled him slightly, plus inflicted that nasty cut & like Marvin said afterwards, it just made him mad.

I sincerely doubt (again, my opinion & only that) Monzon would have employed those crazy & suicidal tactics against a man as tough as Hagler.

As for how Monzon may have fared against a Left hander, who knows?

I would like to think that a man who was MW champ for 7 years & defended the title 14 times might somewhere in his inner being, have the nous to deal with a Left handed fighter.

[Elton John]

Look, nobody can be right or wrong when you are talking about hypothetical scenarios, it's just simply an opinion that you can choose to agree with or not.

I happen to think that Hagler would have paid Monzon huge respect, he's even alluded to that himself previously; I happen to think that Monzon is a superior MW than Hearns ever was.

Maybe the reason why Marvin didn't respect Hearns as much was because Tommy came out blasting, wobbled him slightly, plus inflicted that nasty cut & like Marvin said afterwards, it just made him mad.

I sincerely doubt (again, my opinion & only that) Monzon would have employed those crazy & suicidal tactics against a man as tough as Hagler.

As for how Monzon may have fared against a Left hander, who knows?

I would like to think that a man who was MW champ for 7 years & defended the title 14 times might somewhere in his inner being, have the nous to deal with a Left handed fighter.

Hold on there. I recall it was Hagler who started out first and Tommy obliged him. In fact it was Hagler who threw the first shot. You're claiming that Tommy started first which can only mean you cannot explain why marvin came out the way he did.

You know that many people, fans expecially want to mold a guy like Hagler into what they want in order to edit him into straight ahead walk in punching bag for Monzon.

What if he didnt come out passive and paying Monzon respect as you say? By the way, Hagler's faced many more right handers than Monzon faced left handers. To me that leaves a big question mark even tho Monzon handled most of his competition with ease

[BoxBuzz]

Yep it's a crapshoot when we are reduced to guessing. But look how well Duran did with Hagler...(regardless of the respect factor)....this is one small piece of empirical evidence that swings Monzon's way. Just as some Hagler proponents don't see this one as that difficult to call, I feel the same way in regard's to Monzon's skillset to be more than Hagler could manage.

To think that Monzon could not accomplish what Leonard and Monroe accomplished is just too far fetched for my limited imagination. And can anyone imagine Antuofermo giving Monzon headaches?

The details both anecdotal and objective just adds up to Monzon on my abacus.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Fair points, except for Antuofermo. I saw no headaches from him, just from the judges. This would likely be a series and you would be hard pressed to find someone better in rematches than Hagler was. Not that Carlos was a slouch in that department either, but Hagler smashed guys the second go round.

[Elton John]

Yep it's a crapshoot when we are reduced to guessing. But look how well Duran did with Hagler...(regardless of the respect factor)....this is one small piece of empirical evidence that swings Monzon's way. Just as some Hagler proponents don't see this one as that difficult to call, I feel the same way in regard's to Monzon's skillset to be more than Hagler could manage.

To think that Monzon could not accomplish what Leonard and Monroe accomplished is just too far fetched for my limited imagination. And can anyone imagine Antuofermo giving Monzon headaches?

The details both anecdotal and objective just adds up to Monzon on my abacus.

Personal opinions aside Boxbuzz, don't you think a better comparison of Monzon would be Thomas Hearns? More or less the same build, same dimensions. However, I find Thomas' tools more impressive than Carlos'. With an even greater reach and far mre speed than Monzon could ever hope for as well as a much better jab, Hagler still got to him and even in the second round when Thomas tried his best to keep his distance, marvin still closed in and had him reeling

I think the key to this fight is Marvin's intensity. If he is slow in coming out, slow and methodical, Monzon should have little trouble and wins a comfortable decision.

If Marvin comes in devestating fashion as he has been known to do, ala Minter, Hamsho, Lee, Sibson, he's finished. The fact is, he wont be able to prevent marvin from moving over to his right and scoring over Monzon's lazy left. A few of those and he's going to be dazed

and unlike Monzon, Hagler drives that jab in with authority. If Monzon attempts to cut him off, Marv will score on the inside with quick one twos before Carlos can tie him up.

Keeping his hands high to protect his closed eye, Marvin smartly goes down stairs with the body attack, wears him down even further. How far it goes, who knows? Could Carlos turn it around at some point? Quien sabe?

What bothers me the most is how Monzon expects to score. His left hook is too slow and about the only useful weapon I can see with any success is the right hand but as I said, what's to prevent marvin from moving to his right or simply slipping under it and countering to the body.

It's a styles thing. Trust me, I know. I really see no way that Monzon can win unless Hagler walks straight at him; then he can just pick him apart at a comfortable pace

By the way, this dream matchup was first done in a 1982 KO article which pitted the best of 71 vs 81 champions. The writer obviously had a personal bias as the scenarios he drew out were quite outlandish. He had smoking Joe outpointing Holmes. Bob Foster stopping the awkward Mike Spinks in nine. He had a tiring hagler losing by Unaimous decision to Monzon.

The best one of all was the surgery Ray Leonard performed on the face of Napoles and subsequently battering him for a tko. Nicolino Locche decisioning Aaron Pryor. I couldnt read no more after that, all the laughing was making my ribs ache. Not to mention I have asthma

Anyhow, I just thought I'd make it known where the myth originated from

[BoxBuzz]

Well if you know then that's that, I guess.

However as much as you want to tout speed, I think you may want to analyze accuracy and give a bit more credit where it's due.

For as much as you say "speed" is the issue, I think you may just want to think about for as "slow" as you say Monzon was, he also seemed to have this rather remarkable accuracy statistic even against quicksilver opponents. I'm not sure it's the dynamic problem you imagine it to be.


But if you "know" then it's already settled.

[Elton John]

Well if you know then that's that, I guess.

However as much as you want to tout speed, I think you may want to analyze accuracy and give a bit more credit where it's due.

For as much as you say "speed" is the issue, I think you may just want to think about for as "slow" as you say Monzon was, he also seemed to have this rather remarkable accuracy statistic even against quicksilver opponents. I'm not sure it's the dynamic problem you imagine it to be.


But if you "know" then it's already settled.

I said, I know concerning the problems facing a southpaw presents to opponents. Look at the success of Whitaker.

All these guys-Hagler, Leonard, Jones, Nunn, Monzon, Hearns, etc accuracy is not an issue. Did you not see the Roy Jones-Reggie Johnson fight? What could be more accurate than the pin point than the 1-2 from Jones that forth round that dropped Reggie.

It comes down to who can connect first between Roy and Monzon and between Hagler and Monzon, I see Hagler's southpaw style giving him THE edge in the fight.

[raylawpc]

Well if you know then that's that, I guess.

However as much as you want to tout speed, I think you may want to analyze accuracy and give a bit more credit where it's due.

For as much as you say "speed" is the issue, I think you may just want to think about for as "slow" as you say Monzon was, he also seemed to have this rather remarkable accuracy statistic even against quicksilver opponents. I'm not sure it's the dynamic problem you imagine it to be.


But if you "know" then it's already settled.

Monzon was fast enough against Griffith, Licata, Bouttier, Napoles, etc.

It's pretty fundamental that one of the tools needed to beat a southpaw is a straight right hand, and knowing how to use it. And nobody in the middleweight division had a better right than Carlos Monzon.

[Elton John]

Well if you know then that's that, I guess.

However as much as you want to tout speed, I think you may want to analyze accuracy and give a bit more credit where it's due.

For as much as you say "speed" is the issue, I think you may just want to think about for as "slow" as you say Monzon was, he also seemed to have this rather remarkable accuracy statistic even against quicksilver opponents. I'm not sure it's the dynamic problem you imagine it to be.


But if you "know" then it's already settled.

Monzon was fast enough against Griffith, Licata, Bouttier, Napoles, etc.

It's pretty fundamental that one of the tools needed to beat a southpaw is a straight right hand, and knowing how to use it. And nobody in the middleweight division had a better right than Carlos Monzon.

Well yes, but that was Griffith-balding, still hanging around Griffith, not Roy Jones. Poor comparison.

Licata? Please!!!

Napoles, coming apart at the seams

Now I have just gone over to Youtube to view the videos and from what I saw, Monzon seemed to have a way of making his opponent move the way he wanted them to and further controlled the opponent's actions (limiting) by tying him up. Dont know whether it would work on someone of Hagler's take charge southpaw style or Jones the way he drives in the right hand. But I doubt it

[BoxBuzz]

Good to know, however you "doubting it" would not curb my enthusiasm as I happily took all the Hagler money I could find as I placed my bets on Carlos!