Amateur Scoring

[mike222]

Interesting letter in this weeks Boxing News.I set out the relevant portion below.
At the recent Junior ABA finals over 80 per cent of the winners were fro0m the red corner.This simply reflected that most people (Judges included) are right handed and by convention,the score button for the red corner is operated by the right hand.A punch delivered by the red corner has a much better chance of being recorded accurately and being counted as a scoring blow.Any observations?

[Dennis]

I don't buy it. Pressing a button or pushing a clicker lever does not require much dexterity so it doesn't matter if you are right handed or left handed. I have witnessed shows where almost every winner came out or the blue corner so does that mean all the officials were left handed at the show? I doubt it.

[Slythex]

My red corner clicker is in my LEFT hand (and I'm right handed)
This way I have 'red corner/blue corner' which corresponds to the bout sheet and score card.

I don't think it makes one bit of difference, although there are some coaches who will swear by this theory.

To try and look at this somewhat objectively, I just grabbed the results of most of the local shows I've worked since December 2008.

Out of 243 total bouts, the results are 118 Red to 125 Blue. For whatever that's worth.

[locoxelbox]

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the red corner use to be to the left in the scoring machine.

[415BOXING]

We all know that the scoring in the amateurs sucks And they should have the ten point must system in place,but that's my opinion

[teasy24]

What about uniform colors? Say the red corner has on a blue uniform, but is wearing the red gloves because the corner. Could a judge mistake the colors?

[Kolya]

We all know that the scoring in the amateurs sucks And they should have the ten point must system in place,but that's my opinion

It's not like the Ten-Point must would make things better or is without controversy. I actually prefer the thought process behind the current scoring system; I would just like to see some of the kinks in it ironed out.

[415BOXING]

how can you support a scoring system that doesnt support body shots?Something needs to be done whether its changing the system or schooling the referees,the current system doesnt prepare our amateurs for the pros,and the amateurs that are coached in more of a pro style have a harder time with this pitter pat style

[boxmel]

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the red corner use to be to the left in the scoring machine.

You are mistaken. 8)

how can you support a scoring system that doesnt support body shots?

It isn't the system that determines body shots. It is the judge pushing the button on the system that either scores, or doesn't, a body shot. As far as I know, a legal effective punch with the white knuckle surface of the glove is still, and always has been, a scoring blow.

What about uniform colors? Say the red corner has on a blue uniform, but is wearing the red gloves because the corner. Could a judge mistake the colors?

It's entirely possible, if that is what the judge is using to identify the boxers. This mostly happens at the local level. I always make sure the name that is announced corresponds to the correct corner and I check to make sure each boxer is wearing the correct color gloves.

[Slythex]

Electronic scoring has red on the left, if I remember correctly.

Body shots do count as scoring blows. The catch there, is, if you're working in close to the body, you limit the ability of the judges to see it. The one directly facing the open side might catch it, but the other 4 may not be able to see it.

What about uniform colors? Say the red corner has on a blue uniform, but is wearing the red gloves because the corner. Could a judge mistake the colors?

It's entirely possible, if that is what the judge is using to identify the boxers. This mostly happens at the local level. I always make sure the name that is announced corresponds to the correct corner and I check to make sure each boxer is wearing the correct color gloves

I too, double check this. Cross color uniforms is a pet peeve of mine. It doesn't affect my scoring, but it sometimes is disconcerting.

Also, when a local show changes the order of the bout sheets. Typically it's red corner/blue corner, but a few places like to do blue/red. I can't count the number of times we've had to redo the judging slips because 'red/blue' is the standard.

Here are a few somewhat unrelated observations:
a- most of the time, crowd noise doesn't affect me. But, having a guy 'cheer' blows, sometimes is distracting. By this I mean someone yelling 'Ohh!' every time there's a big punch (often times it's a slap). But it makes you focus on the blow and make sure you think it's legit. The natural inclination is to assume it's a blow. Since I'm aware of this, I'd like to think I've rendered myself immune to this phenomenon. Still, if I were coaching, I'd stack the fans near a judge and have them do that :-)
b- I'm sympathetic to this one, being a former long hair guy myself (just cut my hair after 21 years as a 'longhair'), but I think in boxing, it's detrimental. Especially shaggy hair that comes out the top of head gear. When you get hit, the hair flies back making a shot look more effective than it might actually be. So I'd tell guys to have shorter hair.
c- not amateur at all, but I hate white gloves. They look like pillows, and when wrapped with white tape, make your punches look less hard somehow.

[therealPunchDrunk]

how can you support a scoring system that doesnt support body shots?Something needs to be done whether its changing the system or schooling the referees,the current system doesnt prepare our amateurs for the pros,and the amateurs that are coached in more of a pro style have a harder time with this pitter pat style

You haven't seen a lot of top level amateur boxing lately, have you? It is anything but pitter pat style. In fact, nothing but power punches will register anymore. Boxmel already answered your misgivings about bodypunches, but let me add that lots of bodypunches get registered, they do, however, need to be thrown with power, and be very obvious (just like any other punch) to score.

It's okay that you don't like amateur scoring, but you need to at least know a little bit about it, and complain about things that are actually wrong, if you want the knowledgeable people on this board to take you seriously.

By the way, how does a bodypunch score on a 10 point must system exactly? If you think about it, none of the punches really score, it's all up to the judge's overall impression, which makes scoring even less objective (and scoring in any sport should always be as objective as possible).

[boxmel]

a- most of the time, crowd noise doesn't affect me. But, having a guy 'cheer' blows, sometimes is distracting. By this I mean someone yelling 'Ohh!' every time there's a big punch (often times it's a slap). But it makes you focus on the blow and make sure you think it's legit.

Oh, John - for shame! For shame! Earplugs???

Especially shaggy hair that comes out the top of head gear.

Is against the rules and a boxer can get warned for this.

c- not amateur at all, but I hate white gloves.

Are you saying that white gloves are used in your LBC? Or just making a comment about pro gloves?

[boxmel]

By the way, how does a bodypunch score on a 10 point must system exactly? If you think about it, none of the punches really score, it's all up to the judge's overall impression

That type of scoring would have to revert to manual-scoring, like the old 20-point must system (3 punches equal 1 point and you had to keep track in your head. Ugh!). Won't happen. Way too easy to cheat and no accountability.

[locoxelbox]

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the red corner use to be to the left in the scoring machine.

You are mistaken. 8)

Sory Mel, but I´m right on this one:
http://www.topprosports.ie/product_info ... 326a57d5c4

I do have one similar at home and it also has the red button on the left.

[boxmel]

Sory Mel, but I´m right on this one:
http://www.topprosports.ie/product_info ... 326a57d5c4

Okay - I'll wipe half the egg off my face and change my statement to say that I don't believe this system was ever used by AIBA (Worlds, Olympics, Pan Ams) and definitely not in North America.

[Slythex]

a- most of the time, crowd noise doesn't affect me. But, having a guy 'cheer' blows, sometimes is distracting. By this I mean someone yelling 'Ohh!' every time there's a big punch (often times it's a slap). But it makes you focus on the blow and make sure you think it's legit.

Oh, John - for shame! For shame! Earplugs???

No shame here. I identified the issue, and have learned how to deal with it.
Still... I bet it's effective in general at least some of the time.

Hey, it's better to talk about stuff like this to learn to deal with it rather than just pretend it doesn't exist.

Especially shaggy hair that comes out the top of head gear.

Is against the rules and a boxer can get warned for this.

I'm not necessarily talking about long hair coming out the bottom. More like tufts of hair out the top.

c- not amateur at all, but I hate white gloves.

Are you saying that white gloves are used in your LBC? Or just making a comment about pro gloves?

Just about pro gloves. Has nothing to do with amateur stuff at all. Just one of my observations of things boxers should not do :-)

[boxmel]

I'm not necessarily talking about long hair coming out the bottom. More like tufts of hair out the top.

Hair coming out of the top is also against the rules. Honest! 8)

[Slythex]

Mel-

I think we're in the busting each other's chops stage.

103.1(1):
Hair shall be cut or arranged in such a manner as to extend no more than
five inches below the base of the headgear. Barrettes and hairpins are not
to be used to secure hair. Hair may be secured using rubber bands or other
banding devices. The first time a boxer’s hair interferes with said boxer’s
vision, the referee will have the coach/assistant coach correct the
interference and issue a caution. From this point said violation will be
treated as any other technical rule violation.

My reading of that is that you can have stuff stick out the top as long as it doesn't interfere with vision. Or we can just have a grievance in the middle of a tournament... oh wait, we don't have a provision for that, do we? :-)

[boxmel]

Grievance procedure? What grievance procedure!

Most of the time, long hair coming out of the top of the headgear gets in the boxer's eyes and I have also seen it "swing" into the opponents eyes. Therefore, that is a rule violation. 8)

[locoxelbox]

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken the red corner use to be to the left in the scoring machine.

You are mistaken. 8)

Sory Mel, but I´m right on this one:
http://www.topprosports.ie/product_info ... 326a57d5c4

I do have one similar at home and it also has the red button on the left.

Okay - I'll wipe half the egg off my face and change my statement to say that I don't believe this system was ever used by AIBA (Worlds, Olympics, Pan Ams) and definitely not in North America.

Convinced now Mel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwEmw1sZ8Kw
This is from a USA-Cuba dual meet in 1994 in Ledyard, Connecticut and the electronic scoring machine has the red button to the left as is the norm in international boxing.

By the way, what a gift decision for Frank Carmona over Mario Kindelan...

[boxmel]

Convinced now Mel? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwEmw1sZ8Kw

Oh, getting old sucks! I have no idea where my mind wandered to in this thread - obviously off in LaLa Land. Yes, the red button is always on the left. Duh.

[bwadd21]

getting back to the hair issue, i have a few female boxers, and a judge told me it was against the rules to have hair coming out of the top of the headgear, even if it did not interfeere with the boxers vision. We had her hair fixed inside the headgear, but during the bout some of it came out of the top ( none came out the back) and he kept telling me it was a violation. but according to the rule, only if it blocks the vision, am I correct?

[Slythex]

According to the strict interpretation of the rule, as *I* read it, only if it blocks the vision.
That said, your experience was that another official's interpretation is slightly different. As was Mel's for that matter.

So... when in doubt, I'd say try and avoid having it left to interpretation, because it saves a lot of crap.
I'd also have the rule book handy just in case, and maybe talk to the the officials BEFOREHAND and say something like "my boxer has been DQed over this in the past, but I want to make sure we're all on the same page as to what's acceptable."

Just my opinion. While you may have recourse to appeal (via grievance) after the fact, even if you win your appeal, if you could avoid all of that, it's better all around.

[Dennis]

According to the strict interpretation of the rule, as *I* read it, only if it blocks the vision.
That said, your experience was that another official's interpretation is slightly different. As was Mel's for that matter.

So... when in doubt, I'd say try and avoid having it left to interpretation, because it saves a lot of crap.
I'd also have the rule book handy just in case, and maybe talk to the the officials BEFOREHAND and say something like "my boxer has been DQed over this in the past, but I want to make sure we're all on the same page as to what's acceptable."

Just my opinion. While you may have recourse to appeal (via grievance) after the fact, even if you win your appeal, if you could avoid all of that, it's better all around.

If you say the boxer has been DQ'd in the past, that means you know you should do something different. You can ask, but they might say that she will get DQ'd again. Then what?

I would get a doo-rag or hair net and put that on her hair underneath the headgear.

[boxmel]

I would get a doo-rag or hair net and put that on her hair underneath the headgear.

It's much easier to do what Dennis suggests than to constantly hassle with officials.