Not much of an excuse, if you ask me...undisputedly_pat wrote:Oliver was 8 weeks out of drug rehab. The guy was messed up in the brain, that's why he had a breakdown in the ring.
Lewis - McCall 2...Revisited truthfully
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
Re: Lewis - McCall 2...Revisited truthfully
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jezzamundo
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3127
- Joined: 16 Jun 2004, 13:11
I don't think that beating Oliver McCall can be associated with greatness in any way, whether he was 8 weeks out of rehab or not. Lewis would have easily won the rematch no matter what condition McCall was in, because he was a vastly superior boxer who got careless the first time.
I think what is more commonly associated with Lewis's greatness, is the fact that he avenged both his defeats, thus defeating every man he ever fought. There are very few heavies throughout history who can claim the same. It just so happens that both of those revenge fights were against mediocre fighters that he would have beaten the first time had he prepared properly, and not come in overconfident. Not that that's an excuse.
I think what is more commonly associated with Lewis's greatness, is the fact that he avenged both his defeats, thus defeating every man he ever fought. There are very few heavies throughout history who can claim the same. It just so happens that both of those revenge fights were against mediocre fighters that he would have beaten the first time had he prepared properly, and not come in overconfident. Not that that's an excuse.
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perrycarter
- Heavyweight
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The Scranton Assassin
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 199
- Joined: 20 Jul 2004, 13:15
First of all both of these loses were bullshit anyway. He beat the count in both fights and wasn't allowed to continue as a champion should be. He probably would have lost the Rahman fight anyway but he still beat the count. He most likely would have beaten McCall the first time anyway if he was allowed to continue.
Im sick of all these so called knowledgable fans putting Lewis down for no reason. He is one of the 3 greatest Heavyweights ever and thats all there is to it.
Im sick of all these so called knowledgable fans putting Lewis down for no reason. He is one of the 3 greatest Heavyweights ever and thats all there is to it.
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The Scranton Assassin
- Heavyweight
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Oh yea and another thing. If it werent for pussey ass Riddick Bowe, Lewis would have been undisputed champ since 93. All 3 other dominant heavyweights ducked him. Holyfield only fought him because he had to. Tyson only fought him cause Lewis was champ and Bowe just totaly fagged out. He would have been the real champ for ten years. Also he totaly dominated Holy and Tyson. Name 1 heavy besides Ali that could have beaten Lewis. Oh wait , thats right, there are none.
Lewis was a good fighter but not a great one. The best fighters he fought were past their best when he fought them. Greatness is not a devine right of every champion... the truth is that Lewis fought at a time where the talent level was low, he also managed to avoid his most dangerous foes till they were past their primes and he had too many flaws to really rank as an all time great. I would rate Lewis at about 12 or 15th amongst the Heavyweight champs. Quite a few Heavyweight champs and also contenders who never won the titlke would have beaten Lewis imo.... its no good to say that Lewis didn't train for Mccall and Rahman he had a weak chin and that is the truth... even a very faded Ali at 35 stood up to the Bombs of Earnie Shavers... imagine what Shavers would have done to Lewis. A peak Tyson would have koed Lewis too I think.
I'm not saying this to knock Lewis but we should keep things in perspective, greatness is a hard thing to achieve and many better fighters than Lewis are not considered all time greats.
I'm not saying this to knock Lewis but we should keep things in perspective, greatness is a hard thing to achieve and many better fighters than Lewis are not considered all time greats.
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The Scranton Assassin
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 20 Jul 2004, 13:15
Well, I respect your opinions Slikov but you honestly think SHavers could have beaten Lewis. No way man. I agree that some fighters who weren't champions could have beaten Lewis but not many and if they did it would be totaly by luch. Don't you at least agree with me that he was up at those counts in each fight.
Shavers was one of the hardest punchers ever in the heavyweight division on a par with Foreman and Liston... he floored and almost koed a peak Larry Holmes (who was an all time great champion)... Lewis was koed by both Rahman and Mccall and hurt badly by Tucker, Mercer, Briggs and Klitchenko so I have little doubt that Shavers would have been able to ko Lewis.The Scranton Assassin wrote:Well, I respect your opinions Slikov but you honestly think SHavers could have beaten Lewis. No way man. I agree that some fighters who weren't champions could have beaten Lewis but not many and if they did it would be totaly by luch. Don't you at least agree with me that he was up at those counts in each fight.
The difference between being good or great is what made Holmes able to get up against Shavers and last the round and go on to win the fight.... Had Lewis been hit by the punch that Floored Holmes he wouldn't have got up. As far as I can recall Lewis certainly didn't beat the count against Rahman..... even if he did he was well 'out of it'. Against Mccall he beat the count but his legs were gone and the ref done him a favour by stopping it.
I agree that Shavers was a true KO artist and hit harder than 99% of Heavyweights, if not all of them. Shavers was Heavyweight Champion of the World for about 8 seconds, but Holmes had a great chin and great recovery powers that enabled him to survive and win, to help confirm his greatness as you rightly say. IMO Lewis would not have been able to continue after taking that shot, maybe only Holmes and Ali had the chin for that.silkov wrote:Shavers was one of the hardest punchers ever in the heavyweight division on a par with Foreman and Liston... he floored and almost koed a peak Larry Holmes (who was an all time great champion)... Lewis was koed by both Rahman and Mccall and hurt badly by Tucker, Mercer, Briggs and Klitchenko so I have little doubt that Shavers would have been able to ko Lewis..
But, with regard to a Lewis Vs Shavers fight, IMO Lewis hit harder that Holmes and if he fought the right fight may have done to Shavers what he did to Rudduck. IMO Lewis hit harder that Quarry and Stander and they both stopped Shavers.
Shavers could KO almost any Heavyweight in history including Lennox Lewis, but styles make fights and I believe 4 out of 5 times Lennox would have beated 'The Acorn'.
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jezzamundo
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 16 Jun 2004, 13:11
I am definitely in agreement KOJOE90.
Although I have to disagree with three earlier statements.
1) Lewis being in the top 3 greatest heavies of all time. I am a big Lewis fan, and I rate him as both the best and greatest of his generation, ahead of Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe. I think he had the ability to be considered in the greatest 3, but never truly proved it. I haven't made an all time list before, but I think Lewis would rank in the lower half on the top ten.
2) Lewis beat the count in both his ko losses. I believe Lewis should have been allowed to continue against McCall, and he would have stood a good chance of winning. Or at least the ref should have let go of him, and asked him to walk towards him. Against Rahman though, Lewis looked pretty out of it, and I can't fault the ref for stopping it. Had he been allowed to continue he would have either taken another flush blow to be ko'd or tko'd, or if he got his head clear he would have gone on to stop Rahman on cuts, win on points, or knock him out.
3) Lewis having a weak chin. His two stoppage defeats were both due to huge punches that connected perfectly - McCall's on the front of the chin and mouth, when Lewis's momentum was propelling him forward, and Rahman's the perfect right cross, landing on the side of the jaw. He was up at six against McCall but didn't quite beat the count against Rahman. And those were the only two counts he took in his 14 year 44 fight professional career, and on both occassions he wasn't fully fit (not that it's an excuse). He took flush hits from bangers like Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson and Klitchko without going down. Compare that to some of the geniunely chinny champions. Louis was down ten times and out twice, both times by comparatively small men; Patterson was down 19 times, stopped five; Michael Moorer, down 11 times, out three. Even champs known for their toughness tumbled more often - Frazier down 11 times and stopped three; Holyfield, six times and stopped twice; Tyson, six times and stopped four; Foreman four times and out once, while Larry Holmes was down five times and stopped once. The reality is that while Lewis' chin was not of the McCall, Mercer or Tua standard, he usually took a good punch.
Although I have to disagree with three earlier statements.
1) Lewis being in the top 3 greatest heavies of all time. I am a big Lewis fan, and I rate him as both the best and greatest of his generation, ahead of Tyson, Holyfield and Bowe. I think he had the ability to be considered in the greatest 3, but never truly proved it. I haven't made an all time list before, but I think Lewis would rank in the lower half on the top ten.
2) Lewis beat the count in both his ko losses. I believe Lewis should have been allowed to continue against McCall, and he would have stood a good chance of winning. Or at least the ref should have let go of him, and asked him to walk towards him. Against Rahman though, Lewis looked pretty out of it, and I can't fault the ref for stopping it. Had he been allowed to continue he would have either taken another flush blow to be ko'd or tko'd, or if he got his head clear he would have gone on to stop Rahman on cuts, win on points, or knock him out.
3) Lewis having a weak chin. His two stoppage defeats were both due to huge punches that connected perfectly - McCall's on the front of the chin and mouth, when Lewis's momentum was propelling him forward, and Rahman's the perfect right cross, landing on the side of the jaw. He was up at six against McCall but didn't quite beat the count against Rahman. And those were the only two counts he took in his 14 year 44 fight professional career, and on both occassions he wasn't fully fit (not that it's an excuse). He took flush hits from bangers like Tucker, Bruno, Mercer, Briggs, Holyfield, Tyson and Klitchko without going down. Compare that to some of the geniunely chinny champions. Louis was down ten times and out twice, both times by comparatively small men; Patterson was down 19 times, stopped five; Michael Moorer, down 11 times, out three. Even champs known for their toughness tumbled more often - Frazier down 11 times and stopped three; Holyfield, six times and stopped twice; Tyson, six times and stopped four; Foreman four times and out once, while Larry Holmes was down five times and stopped once. The reality is that while Lewis' chin was not of the McCall, Mercer or Tua standard, he usually took a good punch.
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Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
I don't doubt that Shavers might have KO'd Lewis...but he'd have never done it twice...Lewis did beat everyone he ever fought, and he can't help it that Bowe ducked him or that idiot Mike Tyson got himself thrown in jail...The 1st McCall fight shouldn't have been stopped so fast...Rahman really creamed him, but everybody has a bad day...and he did beat him the 2nd time...and it'll be a long damn time before there's another heavy as good as himsilkov wrote:Lewis was a good fighter but not a great one. The best fighters he fought were past their best when he fought them. Greatness is not a devine right of every champion... the truth is that Lewis fought at a time where the talent level was low, he also managed to avoid his most dangerous foes till they were past their primes and he had too many flaws to really rank as an all time great. I would rate Lewis at about 12 or 15th amongst the Heavyweight champs. Quite a few Heavyweight champs and also contenders who never won the titlke would have beaten Lewis imo.... its no good to say that Lewis didn't train for Mccall and Rahman he had a weak chin and that is the truth... even a very faded Ali at 35 stood up to the Bombs of Earnie Shavers... imagine what Shavers would have done to Lewis. A peak Tyson would have koed Lewis too I think.
I'm not saying this to knock Lewis but we should keep things in perspective, greatness is a hard thing to achieve and many better fighters than Lewis are not considered all time greats.
which is the really sad thing... -
Sweet Scientist
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 13 Oct 2003, 18:19
Lewis was very wobbly against McCall the first time around. He wobbled into the ref and was being supported by the ref. I think the ref did him a favor.
Lewis lost his first fight by a quick knockdown and then a kind stoppage before any drastic damage was done. Some undefeated fighters that get brutally beaten the first time around don't recover. I think if that fight went on Lewis would have either hit the canvas a few more times before it was finally stopped, or he would have got laid out for good. Either way, it may have done psychological damage.
And about the second fight with McCall. McCall was literally pulled out of drug rehab (for Crack of all drugs) so that the fight could go on. No one cared about McCall, or him getting better much less if he was in any mental shape to fight. McCall was yanked from drug rehab (and remember this is a man with a wife and kids. This fight with drugs was/is a big deal.) and then thrown to the hardest hitting heavyweight in the world!
McCall had a breakdown. He should never have been put in that ring. of course who points fingers at those that put this fight together out of greed and opportunity? McCall was used for profit in the ring, then let out to the wolves afterwards.
Lewis lost his first fight by a quick knockdown and then a kind stoppage before any drastic damage was done. Some undefeated fighters that get brutally beaten the first time around don't recover. I think if that fight went on Lewis would have either hit the canvas a few more times before it was finally stopped, or he would have got laid out for good. Either way, it may have done psychological damage.
And about the second fight with McCall. McCall was literally pulled out of drug rehab (for Crack of all drugs) so that the fight could go on. No one cared about McCall, or him getting better much less if he was in any mental shape to fight. McCall was yanked from drug rehab (and remember this is a man with a wife and kids. This fight with drugs was/is a big deal.) and then thrown to the hardest hitting heavyweight in the world!
McCall had a breakdown. He should never have been put in that ring. of course who points fingers at those that put this fight together out of greed and opportunity? McCall was used for profit in the ring, then let out to the wolves afterwards.