Journeymen

[Tom]

For some perverse reason I’v always been interested in boxers who continue their careers while collecting long losing records. I suppose I mean the journeymen, the guys who fight once or twice a month to bring home a regular income and enjoy their short time in the spotlight although most often than not, losing out to the home town man or the next up and coming ‘superstar’. Some may even say they are the life blood of the sport and many promotions wouldn’t and couldn’t survive without them. Here in the UK we seem to produce a fair few of this type of fighter who nowadays can reach 80, 90, 100+ bouts while losing the vast majority of them. Most of them rarely meet in the ring for obvious reasons but I see two of our better journeymen heavyweights are scheduled to meet at St Helens shortly. Howard Daley (3-17-1) from Preston meeting Chris Woollas (18-41-8) from Epworth. This got me to thinking wouldn’t it be interesting to match our other two journeymen heavies Dave Ingleby (6-26-1) from Morecambe against Lee Mountford (4-26-3) from Pudsey and then for them to meet in a final box off ala ‘Prizefighter’. It could be called something like ‘King of the Journeymen’ and would give these genuine, brave and dedicated professionals a chance to compete for a title of sorts and maybe even a belt.

Genuine 50-50 fights guaranteed at all other weights too, for instance:

Cruiser – Rob Burton 13-26-5 v Paul Bonson 21-105-8

Light- Heavy – Mark Phillips 9-60 v David Pearson 6-25-2 and Mark Nilsen 6-17 v Simeon Cover 16-42-2

Super-Middle – Ojay Abrahams 20-76-4 v Dean Walker 12-22-3 and James Tucker 1-20-2 v Jamie Ambler 6-32-2

Middle – Ernie Smith 13-141-5 v David Kirk 11-75-3 and Matt Scriven 13-53 v Paul Royston 4-33

Light-Middle – Duncan Cottier 3-50-3 v Chris Brophy 3-34-2 and Geraint Harvey 5-43 v Steve Cooper 3-30-3

Welter – Karl Taylor 16-127-7 v Billy Smith 12-76-1 and Jason Nesbitt 7-91-2 v Jimmy Beech 10-21

Light-Welter – Johnny Greaves 1-35 v Baz Carey 11-44-4 and Carl Allen 18-81-7 v Kristian Laight 6-62-5

Light – Daniel Thorpe 23-82-3 v Sid Razak 3-30 and Robin Deakin 1-21 v Shaun Walton 4-47-3

Super-Feather – Jason Thomas 7-25-3 v Steve Gethin 11-47-3

Super-Bantam – Anthony Hanna 22-83-8 v Delroy Spencer 11-87-3

I know a couple of these guys may have given up the sport recently and some are from the same stable but I hope you get the gist of what I mean.
All these guys are true professionals and have sweated and shed blood for every penny they have earned and British boxing and it’s supporters should say a big thank you to them.

[rhino222]

decent post and a decent idea, and to me 2 journeymen fighting in a 50/50 fight is more appealing than a boxer who is 15-0 (12) against a 4-43 (1) journeyman!

but...

this type of 50/50 scenario is one of the only ones where the journeyman would actually come to win regardless of his purse. unfortunately most of the journeymen that appear on particular cards know that if they upset the 'house' fighter they will not get work again with that promoter!

i know some journeymen give it their all 100% of the time (Ernie Smith etc) but there are and have been others that are just 'purse collectors' with absolutely no intent to win (and ill name Peter Buckley in this bracket).

i am not in favour of the 'purse grabbing' journeyman and the BBB of C should withdraw licences for extended losing records and for non tryers.

only yesterday some bury (i think) football players were banned for betting on themselves and potentially match fixing. what is the difference between this and some of the crap that goes on in boxing matchmaking?

we...the public...want unpredictable 50/50 fights with boxers playing to win.

the word 'match' in the dictionary would incinuate that the opponents are 'similar'

[SOUTHPAW]

decent post and a decent idea, and to me 2 journeymen fighting in a 50/50 fight is more appealing than a boxer who is 15-0 (12) against a 4-43 (1) journeyman!

but...

this type of 50/50 scenario is one of the only ones where the journeyman would actually come to win regardless of his purse. unfortunately most of the journeymen that appear on particular cards know that if they upset the 'house' fighter they will not get work again with that promoter!

i know some journeymen give it their all 100% of the time (Ernie Smith etc) but there are and have been others that are just 'purse collectors' with absolutely no intent to win (and ill name Peter Buckley in this bracket).

i am not in favour of the 'purse grabbing' journeyman and the BBB of C should withdraw licences for extended losing records and for non tryers.

only yesterday some bury (i think) football players were banned for betting on themselves and potentially match fixing. what is the difference between this and some of the crap that goes on in boxing matchmaking?

we...the public...want unpredictable 50/50 fights with boxers playing to win.

the word 'match' in the dictionary would incinuate that the opponents are 'similar'

Peter Buckley and journeymen like him have saved many a show dont forget alot of these kids work all day then go and box,learn the kid a thing or two then drive home and get up for work again the next day pretty hard work if you ask me so good on them for "purse grabbing".Massive difference between football and boxing with footballers been overpaid and boxers getting paid a few hundred quid for getting hit in the head you will never get 50/50 fights at that level its like saying only the top two leagues can play in the FA cup

[rhino222]

but in sport you must and should always try to win, otherwise you are conning the public. its ok for most boxing fans, they know the reasoning behing your normal purse grabber.

but...

if you are next to a non boxing person, at a live event, and you say to them, before the first bell..... 'i bet buckley loses on points 40-36' ... and you are proved right, how does that look !!

crap isnt it, the fella next to you will either think you are clairvoyant or that boxing is fixed, and i suggest the latter.

[Deserter]

but in sport you must and should always try to win.

Absolutely bang on Rhino. The journeyman syndrome is indicative of the mentality that is costing boxing so much.

[chesh]

but in sport you must and should always try to win.

Absolutely bang on Rhino. The journeyman syndrome is indicative of the mentality that is costing boxing so much.

Agree with both of you.

[rhino222]

but in sport you must and should always try to win.

Absolutely bang on Rhino. The journeyman syndrome is indicative of the mentality that is costing boxing so much.

Agree with both of you.

trouble is, we will continaully get posters on here quoting that ...'the likes of buckley are the lifeblood of the sport'.....'they save shows' .... 'without them prospects would not develop' .....etc etc

let me tell you something, prospects would develop a dam site better it they were actually afraid of getting tagged back !! .. im not saying that they should be in with people who will whoop them, but i am saying they should be in with people who will punish their mistakes.

lets salute the likes of ernie smith, dave ingleby etc... good honest pros, and lets be proud to see the back of the likes of buckley.

i know im being controversial, but i do believe im 100% right.

all those in favour say 'aye'

[demolitiondaley]

Just for the record guys I have never gone into a fight believing I could not win. Even to the last bell when I've known I've been behind on points I've always looked for a knock out to win the fight. I ended up fighting one of the home fighters last night a lad from my gym Martyn Grainger because they couldn't match him up and Woolas ended up fighting another lad from my gym Scott Mitchell a good friend of mine. Martyn and me had a proper tear up and were both looking for the knock out. To be honest I should be a cruiserweight and have thought that for some time. I'm 6ft1, I've been fighting giants and I've only been boxing two years. I need to be fighting lads my own size really, that's my aim now to lose 2 stone and fight at cruiser and get some wins under my belt. Watch this space.

[caffrey]

i agree with rhino.Boxers should be suspended for clearly not trying,

going back to the subject of the post i think a journeyman tournamnt is a cracking idea,im surprised no ones mentioned it before,as long as a fight is competitive and well matched a fighters record is irrelevent

[THEBUTCH]

I was only thinking about the argument 'for' and 'against' journey man last night at a professional show where both Ducan Cottier and Daniel Thorpe appeared against house fighters. Cottier was well worth his money, Thorpe a bit too negative for my liking.

My vote, however, would definitely be 'for' journeymen. I very much doubt last nights show would have taken place without them and that would have been a crying shame. As I say, Cottier gave a debutant a testing time and two of the four contests on the bill were good to very good value indeed. Only one the the four bouts was completely one sided, and that was because the prospect meant business from the 1st bell and kept it up until the last bell. He was good enough not to allow Thorpe in the fight at all.

What I am definitely against is when they are used too often and when the need isn't even there. A decent prospect should not have his record littered with journeyman after journeyman. This is when the concept falls over and is hard to defend.

[danboxer1]

the way i see it is like this.every boxer at some stage of their career is goin to come up against a spoiler.weather its a journeyman lookin to get through unscathed or world a rated boxer lookin to frustrate or not let his opponent set himself.i have the up most respect for every boxer no matter which way they choose to fight.this is my view on it and i'm sure i speak for alot of others in a similar situation to me.
My number one priority is my health so when i go into a fight my main aim is to not get hit.(its all well and good me gettin bashed an have some fella telling me how tough i am but when i'm blowing bubbles when i talk in ten years where's that fella gonna be then)not wipin my arse for me i bet.at the same time i know the kid i'm fightin is tryin to take my head off so with that in mind,any mistakes he might make i will do my best to remind him he's in a fight and must keep his wits about him otherwise i might just get chinned.(hence the fights i have won).journeymen come in all different shapes an sizes but i think it's important for an up and coming kid to experience as many styles as possible.weather its an awkward twat like me or a tough nut such as billy/ernie smith or anthony hanna to name but a few.there is one thing i can say for sure.if the prospects not on his game and the journeyman see's the ko/win.9 times out of 10 he'll take it.there's nothing more i'd like to do than go into everyfight giving it my all but unfortunately like many others.life happened and i also work full time an have 3 kids aswell as boxing so cant put in the same 100% as most full time pro's or maybe its just i haven't as much ability so i'll try to keep my health while providing for my kids and hopefully a test or experience for tomorrows superstars.whilst all the time enjoying every minute of it.W L or draw.LONG LIVE THE JOURNEYMEN.thanks for reading Daniel 'Thorpey' Thorpe.
Ps well done tony owen.you didn't make many mistakes.

[rhino222]

the way i see it is like this.every boxer at some stage of their career is goin to come up against a spoiler.weather its a journeyman lookin to get through unscathed or world a rated boxer lookin to frustrate or not let his opponent set himself.i have the up most respect for every boxer no matter which way they choose to fight.this is my view on it and i'm sure i speak for alot of others in a similar situation to me.
My number one priority is my health so when i go into a fight my main aim is to not get hit.(its all well and good me gettin bashed an have some fella telling me how tough i am but when i'm blowing bubbles when i talk in ten years where's that fella gonna be then)not wipin my arse for me i bet.at the same time i know the kid i'm fightin is tryin to take my head off so with that in mind,any mistakes he might make i will do my best to remind him he's in a fight and must keep his wits about him otherwise i might just get chinned.(hence the fights i have won).journeymen come in all different shapes an sizes but i think it's important for an up and coming kid to experience as many styles as possible.weather its an awkward twat like me or a tough nut such as billy/ernie smith or anthony hanna to name but a few.there is one thing i can say for sure.if the prospects not on his game and the journeyman see's the ko/win.9 times out of 10 he'll take it.there's nothing more i'd like to do than go into everyfight giving it my all but unfortunately like many others.life happened and i also work full time an have 3 kids aswell as boxing so cant put in the same 100% as most full time pro's or maybe its just i haven't as much ability so i'll try to keep my health while providing for my kids and hopefully a test or experience for tomorrows superstars.whilst all the time enjoying every minute of it.W L or draw.LONG LIVE THE JOURNEYMEN.thanks for reading Daniel 'Thorpey' Thorpe.
Ps well done tony owen.you didn't make many mistakes.

ok...so how often do you TRY to win......as a percentage?

[danboxer1]

if i think i can win then i'll try and win but i'll never go out all guns blazing as i'm not that type of fighter.if i see openings i'll take em.its not that i'm tryin to lose its just i'm a safety first fighter.people might not like to see it but thats boxin.look at johnny nelson/Uladamir klitchko/floyd mayweather.all safety first fighters or as some would say clever fighters.they all talk and look like they've never had a fight.the only difference between them and me is they're all brilliant boxers who can bang.i'm sure if i'd had the opportunities floyd had then i reckon i'd do him no worries.haha.i think anyone who knows boxing understands and appreciates all aspects of the game.weather its entertaining or not.cos its the hardest no matter which way you look at it.

[rhino222]

if i think i can win then i'll try and win but i'll never go out all guns blazing as i'm not that type of fighter.if i see openings i'll take em.its not that i'm tryin to lose its just i'm a safety first fighter.people might not like to see it but thats boxin.look at johnny nelson/Uladamir klitchko/floyd mayweather.all safety first fighters or as some would say clever fighters.they all talk and look like they've never had a fight.the only difference between them and me is they're all brilliant boxers who can bang.i'm sure if i'd had the opportunities floyd had then i reckon i'd do him no worries.haha.i think anyone who knows boxing understands and appreciates all aspects of the game.weather its entertaining or not.cos its the hardest no matter which way you look at it.

so...are you telling us that you always enter the ring trying your utmost to win the bout? ...... trying your UTMOST ?

[rhino222]

and just for the record dan, im not trying to belittle you nor pick on you, you are a pro boxer with balls, im just enjoying the opportunity to discuss something with one of the people that i guess i am criticising......thanks.

[dondada]

and just for the record dan, im not trying to belittle you nor pick on you, you are a pro boxer with balls, im just enjoying the opportunity to discuss something with one of the people that i guess i am criticising......thanks.

For some reason Rhino, this has been your hobby horse for a long time now. I do understand your point but a tournament like that proposed would be a good idea, wouldn't it, as presumably there would be no need NOT to 'try' in your terms?

I think Esham Pickering could be added to the line up to add a bit of class.

[DavidPayne]

Just for the record guys I have never gone into a fight believing I could not win. Even to the last bell when I've known I've been behind on points I've always looked for a knock out to win the fight. I ended up fighting one of the home fighters last night a lad from my gym Martyn Grainger because they couldn't match him up and Woolas ended up fighting another lad from my gym Scott Mitchell a good friend of mine. Martyn and me had a proper tear up and were both looking for the knock out. To be honest I should be a cruiserweight and have thought that for some time. I'm 6ft1, I've been fighting giants and I've only been boxing two years. I need to be fighting lads my own size really, that's my aim now to lose 2 stone and fight at cruiser and get some wins under my belt. Watch this space.
:box:

Well take inspiration from Lee Swaby, he had a shocking start but went on a terrific run, and if you need real inspiration look up Kirino Garcia's record!

[rhino222]

and just for the record dan, im not trying to belittle you nor pick on you, you are a pro boxer with balls, im just enjoying the opportunity to discuss something with one of the people that i guess i am criticising......thanks.

For some reason Rhino, this has been your hobby horse for a long time now. I do understand your point but a tournament like that proposed would be a good idea, wouldn't it, as presumably there would be no need NOT to 'try' in your terms?

I think Esham Pickering could be added to the line up to add a bit of class.

yes a tournament would be a good idea mate, because the fights would be even and the better you performed the more money you would get !!!!!!

and yes, its a hobby horse of mine, big time, i dont like to see professional sporting contests that i know the results of before it starts !!!

[BEECHY]

ye i think its a great idear get it on.

[Old bones Ian]

Just for the record guys I have never gone into a fight believing I could not win. Even to the last bell when I've known I've been behind on points I've always looked for a knock out to win the fight. I ended up fighting one of the home fighters last night a lad from my gym Martyn Grainger because they couldn't match him up and Woolas ended up fighting another lad from my gym Scott Mitchell a good friend of mine. Martyn and me had a proper tear up and were both looking for the knock out. To be honest I should be a cruiserweight and have thought that for some time. I'm 6ft1, I've been fighting giants and I've only been boxing two years. I need to be fighting lads my own size really, that's my aim now to lose 2 stone and fight at cruiser and get some wins under my belt. Watch this space.

So are we going to see the Demolition Diet?
Or is it giving up all those doughnuts the police are supposed to be eating

[demolitiondaley]

Yeah dieting bigtime Ian and ditching the doughnuts
Before I started boxing I was well over weight, touching 20st and never did much exercise. I wanted to get on the riot squad so started dieting and joined a regular fitness gym. The weight started to fall off then I joined a boxing club in Bolton called Elite Boxing and Thai boxing club which is run by Bolton prospect Alex Matvienko who posts on here as Matko http://www.eliteboxing.co.uk/ Mat got me fighting fit and showed me the basics, he is a good coach. I reckon I can make cruiserweight if I try hard enough and If I don't I'm just going to be kicking myself thinking "What If". I'm not a safety first kind of fighter by the way so I reckon a move down will be a good idea because they don't hit as hard. But to be honest I'll probably still takes fights at heavy to. I think I'll do better than what I'm doing now because my fitness and speed will improve and my chin isn't going to get less muscley.

[demolitiondaley]

Just for the record guys I have never gone into a fight believing I could not win. Even to the last bell when I've known I've been behind on points I've always looked for a knock out to win the fight. I ended up fighting one of the home fighters last night a lad from my gym Martyn Grainger because they couldn't match him up and Woolas ended up fighting another lad from my gym Scott Mitchell a good friend of mine. Martyn and me had a proper tear up and were both looking for the knock out. To be honest I should be a cruiserweight and have thought that for some time. I'm 6ft1, I've been fighting giants and I've only been boxing two years. I need to be fighting lads my own size really, that's my aim now to lose 2 stone and fight at cruiser and get some wins under my belt. Watch this space.

Well take inspiration from Lee Swaby, he had a shocking start but went on a terrific run, and if you need real inspiration look up Kirino Garcia's record!

Just had a look at Garcia's record, I'm moving to mexico

[alexpaterson]

I love it when journeymen upset the odds and beat the prospects I would say my 3 faviorite journeymen are Daniel Peret always gives his best and comes to fight, Mo Khaled not faised by his oppanants he goes out and does what he wants a good Ingle style fighter, Youssef Al-Hamidi you know your guys good if he beats Al-Hamidi easily he's tough akward and impossible to look good against and to date has given John Murray his hardest fight

[SOUTHPAW]

and just for the record dan, im not trying to belittle you nor pick on you, you are a pro boxer with balls, im just enjoying the opportunity to discuss something with one of the people that i guess i am criticising......thanks.

For some reason Rhino, this has been your hobby horse for a long time now. I do understand your point but a tournament like that proposed would be a good idea, wouldn't it, as presumably there would be no need NOT to 'try' in your terms?

I think Esham Pickering could be added to the line up to add a bit of class.

yes a tournament would be a good idea mate, because the fights would be even and the better you performed the more money you would get !!!!!!

and yes, its a hobby horse of mine, big time, i dont like to see professional sporting contests that i know the results of before it starts !!!

Have you ever boxed rhino

[Old bones Ian]

Mounir Guebbas, french guy his record isn't much to look at 10-13
But he's tough as nails. He's the type of guy that gives a show value. He keeps trying till the final bell