Terry D wrote:Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Terry D wrote:
Toney broke Iran down, Benn blasted him down, hit him illegally, and The Blade was protesting when losing to the 3-knockdown rule, file it under Dokes-Weaver 1, or Spoon versus Smith 2 (I think it was the rematch, cannot be arsed checking). The performance of Toney in defeating Iran was better than anything Benn, Eubank, even Watson, ever produced in terms of pure boxing technique.
You say yourself that Eubank was in battles with the likes of Benn, Watson, and Thompson, who are/were, in my opinion, domestic fighters, Benn raised his game when thing were stacked in his favour, but the likes of Benn, Eubank, and Collins lived under the grace of the likes of Toney and Jones, who would have spanked the granny out of them had the Brits fancied their chances against top-class prime rump, but they didn't, they just stayed here and smashed one another, Benn aside, who took on some US scraps.
Eubank-Benn-Watson were glorified domestic scraps, witness the Ring centenary record book listing Benn-Eubank 1 as a solid domestic battle, solid, not great, that got the Brits over-excited, they have a point, the fight was good, I've seen far, far better, we got caught up in the event, and it colours our perception of the fight, Edouard-Gibbs is a better fight, in my opinion.
Eubank-Watson I was poor, a terrible anti-climax, and the second fight was all about Chris' flaws, then came the dramtic ending, and the near-sacred status that was then bestowed on Watson's career, including his defusing of Benn, solid enough, but look at McCallum-Watson, and then tell me Watson was world class, what, then, was McCallum? Milky way class?
Eubank can sit around and smile enigmatically when asked if he 'let' Collins and Thompson off the hook, in reality he need to keep winning, he needed that dough, so he would have hammered Steve into the ground, had he had the energy to do so, he didn't, so he couldn't.
Eubank, Benn, and Watson, they gave us great nights, but they were not great fighters, Toney, McCallum, and Jones are/were.
Down the line, when people sit to talk about recent British greats (by that I mean easily top ten in their division) they will talk Lennox Lewis. Joe Calzaghe's name will come up, but SMW boss is akin to being named King Sh*t of Turd Mountain, it is a shallow division, and his LHW exploits are hardly worth mentioning.
I sort of agree and disagree with you here Terry. I suppose it depends on your definition of World Class, Jones/Toney/McCallum/BHOPs aren't just world class they are 4 of the best MWs ever, same with Nunn up until him going down hill.
Eubank-Benn 1 probably wasn't a 'real' world title fight, it was the genuine best in Britain/Europe so in a way the WBO belt gave it a glorified British Title/Euro Title banner. At the time everyone in Britain considered both as World Champs, which made them sporting icons. Eubank/Benn/Watson aren't in their class but Eubank/Benn would have given them all good scraps minus Jones who dominates the lot. Benn proved he could beat a P4P top MW in beating GMAN, although perhaps McClellan's pre-existing brain injury may have helped him.
The Barkley fight was very impressive and a world class display, yes it was the 3 KD rule but surely Barkley was getting put away early there and look how Barkley had just performed against Duran. Lets also not forget Eubank proved himself the best in Europe not only beating Benn/Watson but also another 168lb titlist in Rochiaggani who in turn was probably jobbed against Darius Michauski (sp) and beat Nunn.
So Both were Top5 in the world in 1 of best Middleweight Eras we've seen and there have been plenty of worse Middleweight Champions in history, and you could argue the likes of Lamotta and Pavlik weren't World Class if you're goin to argue Benn/Eubank weren't. Ultimately neither were Linear/Ring Champs and ultimately they weren't as good as the great forementioned Yanks/Jamaican, but that doesn't mean they weren't world class, they just weren't Milky Way Class
Jones was at his best in a one-off performance at middle, versus Tate, but one of the best middles ever? No, you cannot dredge a win over Hopkins up, as it was poor from both men. I tend to disagree with your 'top era' claim. Toney was patchy at middle, great skills, but not one of the best ever. Hopkins, for me, is some distance behind the likes of Hagler, Monzon, and Greb.
You cannot justify boosting those names to super-duper elite level at middle just to sneak in Eubank (struggled with many fighters who were distinctly below top-level), Benn (some good wins, but also some terrible deficiencies), and Watson (best win was probably Benn, in a domestic showdown). I think that Watson is a better fighter than Chris and Nigel, none of them were top-level, they never fought the likes of Toney and Jones, or McCallum for that matter, Watson aside, and he got spanked, so it is all speculation, but I would rank them well below these guys.
For example, take Malinga, look what Jones did to him, then look what he did to our 'world beaters', pissed them about and made them look like tits, Eubank knocked himself down in his contest with Malinga. People in Britain, the general public, and some fans, considered Ricky Hatton a world champion when he held the WBU, he wasn't, nor was Benn when he held the WBO.
Benn did prove he could beat a highly ranked middle in Gerald, but the fight was at SMW, and McClellan was an utterly obnoxious man who felt he only had to turn up to win, he was also struggling with the weight, even at the higher poundage. A dog fight, ironically, McClellan's errors, and an incompetent ref, coupled with Benn's resolve, won that match, Benn then went back to looking quite ordinary. Sure, Tibbs had turned him into a box-fighter a few years previous, but a pretty limited one when the chips were down, it must be said.
I still feel that the Iran fight left a lot of unanswered questions, I am not downplaying the win, but Benn got tagged himself, and Iran was unlucky not to see out the round, and Benn was lucky not to get himself thrown out of there. As for Eubank proving himself the best in Europe, that does not equate to world domination, especially with the names around at that time.
Say what you like about Pavlik, he sought out the best in his division, defeated him, and gained some real belts. Eubank never really tried to do this, Benn tried, with mixed results. How can you say that they were world class when there were real world class guys like Toney and Benn around, you cannot, so you have to say they were below those men, decent fighters who caught the British imagination, even though they never really looked like they could offer anything in fights against Toney and Jones, both of whom edged McCallum, who hammered a man, Watson, who gave Benn and Eubank hell.
Eubank and Benn won't be troubling many 'historians' (sorry to use that terrible word) when the lists are handed out, British fans remember them fondly, like we as individuals may fondly remember Mandy Dirty Mouth from down the lane, but she ain't a patch on Eva Green, proximity plays a big factor in these things.
As for Collins, decent fighter, extremely limited, zero credentials at the world level. Sure, he did well to survive versus Mike, with a handful of fights, but his later claim that he had the beating of McCallum, plus Hagler and Leonard, was a direct result of his ridiculously overblown sense of importance after handing out defeats to Eubank (form guide: had looked great against Henry Wharton, people equated this with him being back to his best, when he clearly wasn't) and Benn (form guide: had looked terrible pre and post McClellan, clearly finished).
Collins, sorry Irish lads, is a footnote to a footnote. A [ to a (. He beat two badly faded British boxers, he would not have troubled Tony or Jones in the slightest. He is a Celtic cult figure, a boxing legend in a landscape devoid of top-class fighters in recent times. A tough guy, a funny guy, but not a world level fighter.
Anyway, think I've alienated pretty much everyone on this thread, so will bow out gracefully with my opinion put out there. We can all say "Well Chris did this to that who did so and so to Nunn", but Chris never fought Nunn, nor Toney, nor Jones, and was never inclined to, why should he when he could milk the British public for virtual exhibition fights.
In short: Toney and Jones = world class. Benn and Eubank were not.
Good debate, we are all entitled to our opinions
