Holmes Vs Spinks II

The_Power · Post by **The_Power** » 07 Sep 2004, 10:37

Just finished watching the fight, thought i'd post my comments and thoughts, should be discovered by someone browsing this forum in about 4 years or so.

Firstly, i think the decision was a very bad one. My personal scorecard agreed with Harold Lederman, Larry Merchant, and Ray Leonard, that being 144-141 for Larry Holmes.

Secondly, its clear looking at the fight that Holmes was an Old man, he was slow on his feet, at times simply plodded and was too heavy at 223lbs imo. Also most notable, his trademark handspeed had next to gone, and he simply reverted to loading up the right hand. In short, Spinks faced a mere shadow of Holmes.

The first 5 rounds Spinks gave away, its not even debatable, Holmes was the agressor, hit and threw more punches, and quite simply one the rounds. The punchstats in round one show Spinks throwing 7 punches

Round 6 was imo Spinks best in the fight, he landed combos of overhand right, with a swift uppercut, and also was doubling up on the jab exceptionally well. Holmes forward advances now seemed like anicient ploddings and Spinks took advantage well.

However as soon as that Happened Round 7 was Holmes, who hit Spinks in that round with the harder, clearer shots and stunned spinks with a right hand which landed on the top of his head.

From then on the round alternated between who won them, with spinks however winning two in a row 10 and 11. After 12 rounds it was clear on my card that Spinks would need a Knockout to win, the score was 116-113 on ledermans scorecard, but the general feeling was Holmes had done more than enough to see this one to the end.

Spinks put in a great 13th round firely combonations and making Holmes look very old, he landed and was able to move back outside range, very effectively. he started the 14th exceptionally well, but was caught but a short right hand which put him in a world of hurt, he stopped stunned and almost went down, as he retreated to the ropes, he was hit again, he was out on his feet and the stoppage seemed imminent, however Holmes just sat there and looked at him throwing the odd shots at Spinks, who im sure couldnt believe his luck. However in taking that Round, Holmes made sure that Spinks would have to KO him, at least on teh cards of most people.

The 15th was Spinks round but competitive, he threw lots of punches, connecting with a few, but nothing hurtful, despite taking this round, it seemed that Holmes first 5 round domination and the 14th round would see him retain his title.

The cards didnt agree. One judge Agreed with me, Ray, Merchant and Lederman. The others like Jerry Roths 144-141 FOR SPINKS i think was an absolute disgrace.

On a side note, had Holmes got the decision, it would have been interesting to see how it all would have panned out. A few days after his bout Mike Tyson beat Green on points, and would later in the year Beat Berbick. I assume that Holmes may have taken on Spinks again, or maybe Thomas, or Cortzee. Had he won those fights, an unfication with Tyson might have happened, which i still think Tyson might have won, but not as easily. or Holmes might have just retired permanetly. Eitherway it would have been very interesting imo.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 07 Sep 2004, 10:49

I think Holmes would have retired following a win over Spinks, and would have been lured out of retirement by the Tyson paycheck, as happened in real life. So it would't have been that much different IMO.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 07 Sep 2004, 11:22

I think Tyson always beats the Holmes who lost to Spinks. That being said, I don't think he would have beaten the the Holmes from 3-5 years before that.

I think the second fight was closer than you do, but Holmes was definitely right to complain about the decision

Slapsie

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 07 Sep 2004, 12:22

It's interesting that an even older Holmes was able to compete well with the top heavies of the 90s... which shows I think both the greatness oif Holes and the fall in talent in the Heavyweight division in the 90s.
I haven't watched the 2nd Holmes vs Spinks fight but remember thinking Holmes had been jobbed.... it was close but Larry won it by about 2 rounds... Spinks was a very good fighter though, a great Light-heavyweight and his performance in beating Holmes and then Cooney is far more praiseworthy than Roy Jones overhyped victory over the terrible John Ruiz.... who Larry could probably beat today! 8)

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 07 Sep 2004, 12:29

well said

I think the 90 second demolition by Tyson acts as a smokescreen to an otherwise exemplary career.

The man was a genuine world class fighter who had a really really bad day when he stepped up. I thought before the fight he had the skills to beat Tyson and I still think he could hve done so if he had not bottled it

Now,the fight I most wanted to see in the late 80's would have been Spinks/Holyfield. Now that would have been a war

Slapsie

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 10 Sep 2004, 15:50

Michael Spinks!!! what a fighter!!! One of the most intelligent and smartest fighters in history. I think he won both fights vs Holmes. Well, Holmes was washed up since his fight with Carl "The Truth" Williams. If the fight would have been 3 or 4 years earlier there would have been DIFFERENT outcome: HOLMES BY TKO IN 6!!!

Spinks was so clever that he never came back. I think he knew that he couldn't beat a beast like Tyson anyway, that's why he said: "Heck with it, Give me my 13 million dollars"

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 10 Sep 2004, 16:03

elmersalsa wrote:Spinks was so clever that he never came back. I think he knew that he couldn't beat a beast like Tyson anyway, that's why he said: "Heck with it, Give me my 13 million dollars"

I remember reading an interview with Michael Spinks about 6 years ago when he was comsidering a comeback 'if' is bad knees held up. Thankfully nothing came of it.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 12 Sep 2004, 01:20

The_Power wrote: The others like Jerry Roths 144-141 FOR SPINKS i think was an absolute disgrace.

That's because blind Jerry Roth IS ALMOST ALWAYS an absolute disgrace, the idiot may be the all time leader in f***ed up scorecards...

computer · Post by **computer** » 22 Sep 2004, 16:41

What with the people here . If larry holmes beat spinks , he would of went on to beat thomas and then probably go on and beat tyson . To start with even if holmes beat spinks , he wouldnt get by thomas , pinky would of made an old holmes look like a fool , holmes ducked thomas throughout his career , and old holmes beats tyson , oh come on . A peak holmes dosent beat tyson either , tyson is in prime was to quick to loose to holmes and if spinks didnt shit himself, he would of beat tyson

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 22 Sep 2004, 17:19

computer wrote:What with the people here . If larry holmes beat spinks , he would of went on to beat thomas and then probably go on and beat tyson . To start with even if holmes beat spinks , he wouldnt get by thomas , pinky would of made an old holmes look like a fool , holmes ducked thomas throughout his career , and old holmes beats tyson , oh come on . A peak holmes dosent beat tyson either , tyson is in prime was to quick to loose to holmes and if spinks didnt shit himself, he would of beat tyson

Get real! Tyson self destructed and completely unraveled at age 24...lost to Buster Douglass and never, that's n-e-v-e-r fought at the same level since!
The last time Tyson was good was 1989...Larry Holmes of 1978-1982 would have chopped up Mike Tyson...even in his 'prime' Tyson had trouble with everyone who could box a little...and even Tyson admitted after he KO'd a 38 or 39 year old Holmes, that he would have had real problems with a younger Larry Homes...

Larry Holmes was the last great heavyweight champion...no one in the last 20 years could top him...he didn't lose a fight until he was 36...at that age, things do begin to deteriorate...there's no excuse for losing at age 24 and winding up as an ex-con, $38 million in debt...I recognize that Tyson was once great (1987-89) but that was a long time ago, and he never lived up to his potential...and it's too late now...

computer · Post by **computer** » 22 Sep 2004, 17:39

If larry holmes was so great how come he struggled with bonecrusher smith . Prime tyson humilated smith over 12 rounds and won the fight by about 14 points . Also how come the great larry holmes could only manage a split decision against an old ken norton . prime larry holmes was in a lot of tough fights and was decked a few times , prime tyson won all his fight easily and was never decked .

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 22 Sep 2004, 17:48

computer wrote:What with the people here . If larry holmes beat spinks , he would of went on to beat thomas and then probably go on and beat tyson . To start with even if holmes beat spinks , he wouldnt get by thomas , pinky would of made an old holmes look like a fool , holmes ducked thomas throughout his career , and old holmes beats tyson , oh come on . A peak holmes dosent beat tyson either , tyson is in prime was to quick to loose to holmes and if spinks didnt shit himself, he would of beat tyson

He ducked Pinlon THomas his whole career?? You know jack squat-when the hell did he earn a shot vs Holmes? In the early 80s he drew with Coatzee, and later he lost his paper title to Berbick. Thomas had a good jab and good handspeed and athleticism but technically was very flawed, had a poor defense, and he always dropped his left, and was begging for a right hand counter. He may have eeked a decision from an old Holmes in 85 or 86 but in 1982 Holmes would've embarassed him . . . .

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 22 Sep 2004, 18:38

computer wrote:If larry holmes was so great how come he struggled with bonecrusher smith . Prime tyson humilated smith over 12 rounds and won the fight by about 14 points . Also how come the great larry holmes could only manage a split decision against an old ken norton . prime larry holmes was in a lot of tough fights and was decked a few times , prime tyson won all his fight easily and was never decked .

What rock you been living under mate!... a prime Holmes would have schooled Tyson.... 8)

computer · Post by **computer** » 22 Sep 2004, 19:00

Look who had the more impressive prime , the great larry holmes was behind on the scorecards when he knocked out mike weaver, mike weaver sucked, prime holmes nearly lost to an old ken norton , struggled big time with bonecrusher smith, where prime tyson make smith look like an amateur . What makes you thinl prime holmes beats prime tyson . An old holmes lost to spinks , tyson blasted spinks out in 90 seconds where many people were tipping spinks to beat him . Just ecause mike didnt reach his potential, didnt mean he wasent as great as everyone said in the eighties . The great cus dmato said that at 16 mike could of licked holmes , if he kept his emotions under control . And when mike was 16 he was holding his own with carl williams in sparring sessions where holmes got stuggled life and death with williams .

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 22 Sep 2004, 19:29

computer wrote: prime tyson won all his fight easily and was never decked .

Sonny, go view the tape of the Tyson-Douglas fight...and repeat what you just said....

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 22 Sep 2004, 19:36

computer wrote:The great cus dmato said that at 16 mike could of licked holmes , if he kept his emotions under control .

A.) The great Cus Damato was somewhat biased, don't you think? Living with young Tyson and all? Isn't this the same great Cus Damato that said Ali wouldn't have beat Patterson if Floyd's back hadn't been sore???

B.) Mike Tyson couldn't keep his emotions under control unless everything was going his way...the slightest bit of adversity and Iron Mike was in trouble...view the Holyfield fights...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 22 Sep 2004, 20:44

Tyson in his 'prime' struggled against Tillis, Green, Ribalta, Tucker and looked awful against Bonecrusher. Tyson is basically a bully and a front runner who has fallen apart everytime he's met a fighter whose stood up to him and fought back. Holmes opposition was Light years ahead of Tysons, the Norton who fought Holmes was still a great fighter... watch the fight!... Holmes in his prime would have cut up Tyson and stopped him. The Spinks that Tyson fought was 3 years removed from the Spinks that Holmes fought and had 'shot' legs, ...again, watch the fight and see the supports that Spinks was wearing on his knees.

computer · Post by **computer** » 22 Sep 2004, 21:11

Okay you say tyson struggled with tills , tucker , ribalta and green . Okay as far as green goes tyson won ever round , you call that struggling ? . The tills fight I agree tyson struggled in that fight but he was only on his way up and still had a lot to learn , anyways the great ali struggled with doug jones before he beat liston , so what ? . Okay jose ribalta , tyson beat the crap out of ribalta and floored him twice in the fight , it was a one sided beating , ribalta did nothing , he didnt even win one round , again do you call that struggling ? . Now on to the tony tucker fight , yes I agree tyson struggled with tony in a 12 round decision , but he lost 3 rounds at most , tyson was below par in that fight , if you watch a re run of the fight sugar ray leonard who was commentating on that fight said that tysons problem in that fight was that he didnt use much head movement and kept loading up with one punch . But tyson outjabbed tucker , and proved that he could box and use the jab effectivly to outbox a taller opponent . If those fights are the best you can come with to discredit tysons prime then I dont think you are putting up much of an argument . Infact the tucker that tyson outboxed was just as mobile as prime holmes and had hands as quick as prime holmes .

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Sep 2004, 06:06

computer wrote:Okay you say tyson struggled with tills , tucker , ribalta and green . Okay as far as green goes tyson won ever round , you call that struggling ? . The tills fight I agree tyson struggled in that fight but he was only on his way up and still had a lot to learn , anyways the great ali struggled with doug jones before he beat liston , so what ? . Okay jose ribalta , tyson beat the crap out of ribalta and floored him twice in the fight , it was a one sided beating , ribalta did nothing , he didnt even win one round , again do you call that struggling ? . Now on to the tony tucker fight , yes I agree tyson struggled with tony in a 12 round decision , but he lost 3 rounds at most , tyson was below par in that fight , if you watch a re run of the fight sugar ray leonard who was commentating on that fight said that tysons problem in that fight was that he didnt use much head movement and kept loading up with one punch . But tyson outjabbed tucker , and proved that he could box and use the jab effectivly to outbox a taller opponent . If those fights are the best you can come with to discredit tysons prime then I dont think you are putting up much of an argument . Infact the tucker that tyson outboxed was just as mobile as prime holmes and had hands as quick as prime holmes .

Tucker as good as a prime Holmes!... I doubt you have even seen Holmes fighting in his prime to say something as silly as that.
Tyson struggled with every fighter who even had a semblance of a Jab and a good chin.

computer · Post by **computer** » 23 Sep 2004, 09:21

Tell me who rated a prime larry holmes when he was champ, did anyone ever say holmes is a phenomonon , a great fighter , unbeatable . No they didnt , it is common believe that larry holmes dominated one of the weakest eras in heavyweight history , he struggled a lot with his opponents and he never even unified the belts because he was afraid to fight thomas , tubbs or page because he was afraid of been beat . And iF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BOXING , you would know that tyson didnt train for the douglas fight, he was 30 pounds overweight 3 weeks before the fight and went on a crash diet , watch mike in the fight he was awful where is the head movement , the footwork , the combinations, his jab , compare the way tyson moved in that fight to say the larry holmes fight and the difference is huge , if you cant see that you are either stupid or know nothing about boxing , the tyson in the douglas fight was horrible , the tyson who fought willams in the last fight moved better and would of beaten the mike who lost to douglas he really was that bad in that fight .

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 23 Sep 2004, 12:36

computer wrote:Tell me who rated a prime larry holmes when he was champ, did anyone ever say holmes is a phenomonon , a great fighter , unbeatable . No they didnt , it is common believe that larry holmes dominated one of the weakest eras in heavyweight history , he struggled a lot with his opponents and he never even unified the belts because he was afraid to fight thomas , tubbs or page because he was afraid of been beat . And iF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT BOXING , you would know that tyson didnt train for the douglas fight, he was 30 pounds overweight 3 weeks before the fight and went on a crash diet , watch mike in the fight he was awful where is the head movement , the footwork , the combinations, his jab , compare the way tyson moved in that fight to say the larry holmes fight and the difference is huge , if you cant see that you are either stupid or know nothing about boxing , the tyson in the douglas fight was horrible , the tyson who fought willams in the last fight moved better and would of beaten the mike who lost to douglas he really was that bad in that fight .

I know plenty about boxing mate, I've probably forgotten more than you'll ever know! and I know enough to know that the 'great' Mike Tyson was largely a media creation, he put in some great performances sure and he was a great puncher and had the talent to be an altime great but he lacked the mental strength to reach greatness... and most people who know boxing agree with this.
As for Holmes being champion at a time of limited talent that is pure bull!... if the talent was limited during Holmes time what was it during Tysons???....... cause Tysons opposition was far less talented than Holmes. Also many people recoognised that Holmes was a superior champion... most people who know boxing rate Holmes in the top 3 or 5 of all time heavies while Tyson would be lucky to get into the top 10.
Too many flaws stop Tyson from being a true all time great... 8)

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Sep 2004, 13:38

silkov wrote:but he lacked the mental strength to reach greatness...

...and that's it in a 'nut shell'...excuse the pun.... 8)

computer · Post by **computer** » 23 Sep 2004, 14:37

I am sorry but tysons era was no way weaker than holmes era . Lets compare shall we . Lets compare there competition shall we . Ther only common opponents were trevor berbick and bonecrusher smith . Prime holmes outboxed a green trevor erbick and beat him , prime tyson destroyed a much more experienced berbick who had just beat one of the best fighters in the eighties in pinklon thomas , believe it or not pinklon thomas in the mid eighties was ranked higher on a pound for pound list than holmes . So its obvious to me that tyson beat a much better berbick . Prime larry holmes struggled against his weak opp such as old ken norton , mike weaver , tim witherspoon , bone crusher smith and carl williams .

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 23 Sep 2004, 15:21

...prime Tyson...prime Tyson...prime Tyson....

...prime Tyson lost at age 24 to fat Buster Douglas...
...prime Tyson lost to Holyfield (twice)..he was only 30 years old at the time, most fighters are still in their 'prime' at 30...

Why is "prime Tyson's" prime so short???? Why does it end right before the Douglas fight? He was only 24, right??? It's not anyone's fault but Tyson's that he lost a few years in prison...after his 'prime' according to you...

I grow weary hearing Tyson fanatics say that Tyson would have beaten Ali-Holmes-Joe Louis-Dempsey-etc. HE FREAKING SELF DESTRUCTED AT AGE 24!!! The all time greats were just entering their 'primes' at that age...He is what he is and he was what he was...AND IT ISN'T PRETTY...he looked like a champion with promise 1987-1989, but he still showed flaws against everyone he faced who could box a little...then came Buster...

You say he wasn't in condition for Buster Douglas??? Who the hell do you think was responsible for that...his trainer...his advisers...his sparring partners??? Personally, I think he was in shape physically...he wasn't in shape mentally...because every single time he faced serious adversity, he failed miserably...

Sometimes, the truth is tough to take...suck it up already....

computer · Post by **computer** » 23 Sep 2004, 17:41

Look prime tyson ended after the spinks fight when rooney left , tyson abbandoned his peek a boo style for a brawaler style and thats why he lost to douglas because he didnt train and his boxing technique went out the window . Douglas wasent anything special in that fight , If mike fought the way he fought against douglas in the eighties he would of lost to all the guys he beat from berbick to williams , he really was that bad against douglas , he didnt throw any punches for peats sake , he just stood there and let douglas hit him , he was no way aggressive and didnt put any pressure on douglas which he had done in all his previous fights , if tyson did nothing in that fight but work the body he would of got douglas out of there in 3 rounds , his corner was a joke using a condom to treat his cuts .

Holmes Vs Spinks II

Holmes Vs Spinks II

Re: Holmes Vs Spinks II