The Top 20 All Time Heavyweights

[I Feel Fine]

Frazier is there to hit and is a slow starter. Not good qualities against Dempsey. If Quarry and Bonavena and Ali could badly hurt Frazier early you really believe that Dempsey would be unable to?
I'm not even saying that I favor Dempsey, but the idea that he is not a devastating puncher is crazy. And saying that he faced little in terms of opposition is very untrue. He doesn't have Frazier's list, but he was hardly fighting bums when he was champion.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He also takes Dempsey to be one who couldn't take a licking too, apparently.

Dempsey was one tough son of a b!tch. He could take it as well as any. Not a far-fetched to state Frazier could break him down the stretch, but you're frankly delusional if you believe he's going out flat on his back at Frazier's first left hook.

You know nothing of what you're looking at.

[I Feel Fine]

Yeah, and if Dempsey was vulnerable to a punch it was the straight right, as Gene Tunney noted, not the left hook. But Dempsey had a great chin. I recall Tunney's son saying that Dempsey would chew on pine to toughen his jaw.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He also takes Dempsey to be one who couldn't take a licking too, apparently.

Dempsey was one tough son of a b!tch. He could take it as well as any. Not a far-fetched to state Frazier could break him down the stretch, but you're frankly delusional if you believe he's going out flat on his back at Frazier's first left hook.

You know nothing of what you're looking at.

LOL, what I'm looking at? Limited shoddy film from almost a century ago? I disagree with your take on jack Dempsey and now I'm clueless?

I haven't noticed before but is your game to take every post and stretch it? I never said Dempsey couldn't take it. Did I accuse you of saying frazier had no punch resistance?

What I have always seen with Dempsey is along the lines of what I see with Tyson & DelaHoya. Talented fighters whose overwhelming popularity and contributions outside of the ropes tend to overrate the cold hard facts of the in ring action. If it's about the biggest fan base, Dempsey is top 5. He was clearly the most talented Heavyweight in a transition phase for the Sport. Too bad there wasn't more competition. I just can't see any basis for his rankings on all time lists based off of who he faced. I've seen him top 10 p4p all time and that is mind blowing to me. I can't see a case for him in the top 150.

It's quite possible that Jack was better than I think he was. Unfortunately, he isn't going to be having anymore fights and there isn't going to be anymore film. Dempsey was ahead of his time talent wise. His resume just doesn't move my pants like it does the majority of Boxing fans. I'm fine with that, not the first, nor the last time that will happen. But I can assure you I know exactly what I'm looking at.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yeah, and if Dempsey was vulnerable to a punch it was the straight right, as Gene Tunney noted, not the left hook. But Dempsey had a great chin. I recall Tunney's son saying that Dempsey would chew on pine to toughen his jaw.

Whose hook did Jack taste on the level of Frazier's? More importantly, Dempsey is going to be backing up, there is no doubt about it. What's he going to do then? Just a horrific match up for Jack.

I never said Dempsey had a china chin. But he never fought a Joe Frazier.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Frazier is there to hit and is a slow starter. Not good qualities against Dempsey. If Quarry and Bonavena and Ali could badly hurt Frazier early you really believe that Dempsey would be unable to?
I'm not even saying that I favor Dempsey, but the idea that he is not a devastating puncher is crazy. And saying that he faced little in terms of opposition is very untrue. He doesn't have Frazier's list, but he was hardly fighting bums when he was champion.

Jack could get his attention early, I was intentionally overstating my case with he would laugh at his best punch. But I don't see any evidence that it would be anything that Frazier wouldn't over come.

If we are talking about Frazier from the first Bonavena fight with a dozen or so fights against a prime Dempsey, Jack would have a chance. If Dempsey is going to switch places with Ali in 71 and destroy Frazier with his heat seeking missiles, I can only disagree.

[yancey]

I don't think anyone has to vouch for me as an Ali fan... Ali when he was flat footed was an average puncher, and most of the time he was dancing and moving away which took something out of his punch. Dempsey's power was anything but average. It is true that Gibbons went the distance with Dempsey, but he was moving and holding a lot. If you stood in front of Dempsey you were going down.
Yancey... maybe you didn't intend to, but comparing Marciano to Chuvalo is crazy.

I made NO comparison of Chuvalo vs Marciano as fighters. You read too much into what people are saying.

The comparison I DID make was their facial features after Frazier got through with them.

Not crazy at all.

And for anyone else reading too much into what I'm saying, I do not think Frazier-Marciano would be a walkover. I think it would be a hell of a battle, both men possibly down. I think their fight would be a real war, but Frazier with gradually taking control and turning Rocky's face into an absolute mess, with things ending somewhere around 10 or 11.

I also think some of you are underrating Frazier's chin and overrating Marciano's one punch power. Sure, Marciano hit Walcott with that devastating punch in their first fight, but in truth the Rock was really more of a accumulation puncher.

The bigger, faster accumulation puncher would break down the smaller, slower accumulation puncher,imo.

[yancey]

Frazier is there to hit and is a slow starter. Not good qualities against Dempsey. If Quarry and Bonavena and Ali could badly hurt Frazier early you really believe that Dempsey would be unable to?
I'm not even saying that I favor Dempsey, but the idea that he is not a devastating puncher is crazy. And saying that he faced little in terms of opposition is very untrue. He doesn't have Frazier's list, but he was hardly fighting bums when he was champion.

Jack could get his attention early, I was intentionally overstating my case with he would laugh at his best punch. But I don't see any evidence that it would be anything that Frazier wouldn't over come.

If we are talking about Frazier from the first Bonavena fight with a dozen or so fights against a prime Dempsey, Jack would have a chance. If Dempsey is going to switch places with Ali in 71 and destroy Frazier with his heat seeking missiles, I can only disagree.

You are on very solid ground with your thoughts, imo.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Dempsey has, "a chance" against the Frazier who fought Bonavena the first time!?

You're a funny little fellow. You don't know what you're looking at, thirty years as an observer or not.

[I Feel Fine]

I think the Quarry-Dempsey comparison is legitimate, and should concern those who pick Frazier. Again, I am not even picking Dempsey to win, but if Dempsey hits Frazier the way Quarry did early on then Frazier will be in a lot of trouble. It is not that Frazier had a bad chin, he had a great chin as we all know, but he was a slow starter and could be caught cold early, which is not a good quality to have against Dempsey
No one said that Dempsey is better than Ali but some fighters match up better. Ali was able to beat Frazier in the long run, but with more power he might not have had such tough fights with him. Dempsey has a better chance than Ali to stop Frazier, especially early, while Ali has a better chance to win a decision... except for when he is ring rusted and uncharacteristically shows poor stamina in the late rounds, as he did in the first fight, and as he did not in the rematches.
No one needs to tell me about Marciano's punch and the fact that he often won on an accumulation of punches. This was true of most of his fights, with only a few exceptions. In fact it is true of Frazier in many cases. But Rocky was a hard hitter nonetheless, and if he builds an early lead with an early knockdown or two he can win a close decision over Joe. Joe could conceivably do the same, but if I had to bet on who knock down the other in the early rounds I would have to pick Marciano to do it, and since I picture it to be a close fight I would say that this gives Rocky the advantage if it goes the distance.
As for Frazier making Rocky's face a mess... Marciano can do the same to Frazier. Frazier has a loss caused by a busted up face, Marciano doesn't. And I don't really like the argument that Marciano was "slow." He was no Floyd Patterson, but his punches could be deceptively fast. Frazier wasn't exactly a speed demon either.
Again, I think Frazier is the best fighter of the three, though I rank Rocky higher based on accomplishments, but Frazier has some disadvantages when fighting head to head.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Dempsey has, "a chance" against the Frazier who fought Bonavena the first time!?

You're a funny little fellow. You don't know what you're looking at, thirty years as an observer or not.

I know when I've run into someone incapable of debating without hurling insults. Why not offer something constructive to the discussion? If I don't know, why not educate me? You act like we are talking about Marvis Frazier.

Help the underprivileged with your brilliance Einstein. I wasn't alive 90 years ago to follow Dempsey like you did oh wonder of Boxing knowledge. I'm humbled to have taken part in a discussion with a man who just repeats over and over.

You know not what you see, You know not what you see.....Are you Broughton's brother?

[Goodnight, Irene]

They say a man needs to know his limits. If you've followed Boxing for thirty years & are dead-serious in your above postings, I can't help you. I'm not so arrogant as to think I can teach you in five minutes what you're unable to see in three decades.

It's beyond my powers of persuasion. There is no point debating with the lunatic fringe.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

They say a man needs to know his limits. If you've followed Boxing for thirty years & are dead-serious in your above postings, I can't help you. I'm not so arrogant as to think I can teach you in five minutes what you're unable to see in three decades.

It's beyond my powers of persuasion. There is no point debating with the lunatic fringe.

You know not what you see.

[pringle]

I think people today see Dempsey as a smaller guy, as someone above noted, and so they don't understand what a puncher he was. They are perhaps under the same delusion that Jess Willard was under. He and others were afraid that he would kill Dempsey.
I agree about Frazier-Marciano, I think it is a toss up. It is another case where maybe Rocky might land something early, otherwise it will be a battle down the stretch. Maybe Rocky wins a close decision on an early knock down.

Jess Willard underestimated the power of plaster of paris.

[Goodnight, Irene]

[toppity]

thanks for an entertaining and enlightening thread.

['Frilla]

yall have HOLYFIELD way too low

[Mr E]

THE TOP 20 HEAVYWEIGHTS OF ALL TIME


Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Jim Jeffries
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Riddick Bowe
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Gene Tunney
James J. Corbett
Ezzard Charles
Jersey Joe Walcott
Max Schmeling

The Superior Talents:
Joe Louis is the best technician amongst all heavyweight punchers, the most complete fighter amongst all the heavyweight champions, the best in a combination of boxing skill and punching power. His punching accuracy is the best ever seen by a heavyweight on film. He has speed, power, and explosiveness, some of the best combination punching ever in any weight class of any time. Louis was the complete package. He holds the record for longest consecutive title reign at nearly 12 years and the most title defenses with 25, 21 of those are knockouts, 17 are ten counts, and 5 in the first round.

Muhammad Ali beat the highest class of competition in heavyweight history. He had incredible physical gifts, which were his phenomenal speed, a great chin and razor sharp reflexes. Fundamentally he was flawed having never learned the rudiments of boxing. Based on his athletic ability and quality of opposition I have no problem with Ali being # 1, although I prefer Louis for his superior technical skills and punching power.

Jack Johnson was the near equal of Ali as an athletic talent, the best defensive fighter amongst all heavyweight champions, particularly at glove blocking. He had speed, anticipation and athleticism on the level of Ali. He was dominant and rarely lost rounds in his prime. Nat Fleischer, founder of Ring Magazine, saw every heavyweight champion from Corbett to Ali. He wrote, (Black Dynamite Vol. 4 p. 6), “Jack Johnson boxed on his toes, could block from most any angle, was lightning fast on his feet, could feint an opponent into knots…he possessed everything a champion could hope for punch, speed, brains, cleverness, boxing ability and sharp-shooting." He also said, (50 Years at Ringside p. 84), that Johnson’s “mastery of ring science, his ability to block, counter, and feint, are still unexcelled.” He didn’t face the competition of Ali, but physically he was a marvel of the ring. Highly under-rated by many today.

Jim Jeffries: Jeffries is a bridge between the superior athletic talents and the super-heavyweights. He combined good size with excellent athletic ability. He possessed world-class sprinting speed and a 6-foot high jump. Although he was nearly big enough to be classified as a super-heavyweight he lacked the one shot punching power of most of the other big men. One look at his record shows that he was not a hitter in the class of Liston or Foreman. Stylistically he was a bit crude, but given enough rounds Jeffries might be the greatest heavyweight in history. If he survives the early rounds against any opponent he is a threat to win in the late rounds of any fight. He would be favored over most of the great heavyweights in a fight to the finish. He had an iron chin and was never knocked off his feet in his prime and had endurance to maintain a knockout punch past the 20th round. His best punch was his left hook to the head and body. In boxing matches 20 plus more rounds or to last man standing (fight to the finish) he would be favored against most of the top 20, but in a 15 round fight it is difficult to pick him against some of the men rated above him.


The BEST of the Super-Heavyweights:

George Foreman was a destroyer of the ring. The Foreman that annihilated an undefeated Frazier, crushed Norton, and cut the ring on Ali in Zaire was the most awesome heavyweight slugger in history. Ali did not defeat George by outboxing him. He beat him with his toughness. Ali in his autobiography said George had him out in his feet in Zaire and didn’t know it. If Ali took a punch an iota less than he did he doesn’t survive Foreman. I don’t think anyone else survives the ropes against the Foreman of 73-74. After losing to Ali he changed trainers and began to fight at a measured pace. This was a mistake for him. When he lost to Young he didn’t go after him and didn’t throw a meaningful punch until the 6th round. The Zaire Foreman crushes him inside a few rounds. It is a fallacy to say any clever boxer could beat him. The prime Foreman was a destroyer nonpareil. Very few men would beat the Foreman of 1974. Foreman was the greatest of the super-heavyweights, a freak of nature, he would crush Lennox Lewis inside 2 rounds in my opinion and the smaller swarming heavyweights would meet the same fate as Frazier. His power was such that he regained the heavyweight title at the elderly age of 45.

Larry Holmes: A master boxer, an outstanding ring general with good mobility for a big man and possessed a great left jab. He used his height and reach well and although not a huge knockout puncher, he possessed a strong right cross and uppercut. He also had a good chin and loads of heart. Larry was one of the best technicians in heavyweight history and he was solid defensively and had excellent footwork. His 20 title defenses are second only to Joe Louis.

Sonny Liston: Although only 6’1” Liston had the dimensions of a “super-heavyweight.” His 84” reach is tied for third longest in boxing history with Lennox Lewis. His fists are the largest of any heavyweight champion, 15” the size of ham hocks. Liston had a powerful shotgun jab to go along with his long reach, and he also possessed debilitating punching power with his powerful left hook and devastating uppercuts. Sonny had a strong chin, failing to last the distance only in the controversial Ali fights and towards the end of his career against Leotis Martin. His overall record of 50-4, 39 knockouts is quite good. He was a solid technician in the ring and one of the few heavyweight greats who fought well inside and outside. That cannot be said of too many fighters. Liston was highly avoided and should have been champ by 1960, if not for Ali he likely would have reigned as champion throughout the 1960's as there was no one to beat him until a peak Frazier.

Lennox Lewis: Was a good all around heavyweight champion who at 6’5” 240 pounds and an 84” reach knew how to use his size to advantage. He could box well outside with his long left jab and had a 1st tier right cross that was straight and extremely powerful. He had the size and punching power to knock out virtually anyone. Lennox could be more aggressive at times and was inconsistent in this manner. His chin was not at the highest level as he was twice knocked out as champion. Despite this flaw Lewis defeated every opponent he faced at least once.



The Great Swarmers

Jack Dempsey: The highest rated of the swarming heavyweights. The Manassa Mauler was not only one of the most exciting heavyweight champions in history he was also one of the ring's greatest all time pound for pound fighters. Dempsey has one of the best knockout records in history with a winning streak of 32-0 with 28 knockouts. His 25 first round knockouts are a record in the heavyweight division. Dempsey was a bob and weave swarmer who attacked violently from the opening bell. He could box inside, he could punch, and he could take a punch. He had excellent foot speed and could also maneuver around fairly well for his style. At 6’1” 190 pounds he might be considered smallish by today’s standards but he had the power and ability to knock out much larger opponents as his victories over Willard and Firpo aptly demonstrated.

Mike Tyson: The biggest, fastest, strongest and most powerful of the swarming type heavyweights. His speed and explosive power rate among the best ever. In his prime he also had fine defensive skills. Hank Kaplan wrote, that his “defense is the best seen in the heavyweight division in many years.” In his fights with Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker each man only landed one significant punch in their entire fights. Tyson’s perpetual motion bob and weave was designed to make an opponent miss while always being in position to punch. He was very elusive with his upper body. He was able to anticipate an opponent’s attack, slip their punches and counter perfectly. Tyson was one of those fighters who after winning the title could not stay on the top of his game mentally. While lacking the durability and mental toughness of many of the other great heavyweights his physical talent and punching power is enough to defeat many of them. But because he lost his legacy fights (Douglas, Holyfield 1 and 2, Lewis) he cannot rate higher in a historical sense. One has to wonder if he would freeze up and fold against other all time greats who were not afraid of him.

Rocky Marciano: Although small at 5’ 10 ¼ and 185 pounds Marciano was a tremendous puncher. He was also a non-stop slugger who wore down his opposition through attrition. A classic swarming style heavyweight who never stopped coming and never stopped punching until his opponents wilted. He was greatly conditioned and often set a relentless pace. Marciano’s tough chin and powerful right hand keep him a threat against most opponents. The only heavyweight champion to retire unbeaten and not come back. 49-0 is his legacy. Why he isn't higher: He never faced a 1st tier heavyweight puncher who weighed over 200 pounds. The two best punchers he faced in his career, Walcott and Moore- aged 38 and 42 at the time-had Rocky on the canvas. Joe Louis is not included since when he met Rocky, the Brown Bomber had long since lost his once devastating punch.

Joe Frazier: Frazier was a pressuring, swarming heavyweight who gave 3 minutes of work every round. “Smokin’ Joe” was one of the most aggressive pressure fighters of all time. His left hook was among the best in heavyweight history. Frazier was a willing fighter who knew how to get inside and go to work. He cut the ring as well as any fighter in history. His body punching was unrelenting. He had a heart that would not quit, although the quality of his chin has been questioned against the biggest punchers. His only losses are to Muhammad Ali and George Foreman.



Not Quite Top 10

Riddick Bowe: Bowe was a super-heavyweight at 6’5” 230 plus pounds and with a reach of 81inches. He was also the best infighter among the giants. He had an excellent jab, a strong uppercut, and worked the body very well. But he didn’t dedicate himself the way he should have and lacked proper conditioning except for his peak performance in the first Holyfield fight. The Bowe of that night (Holyfield 1) would be a threat to any heavyweight who ever lived. Beat Holyfield in 2 of 3 contests. Some critics have questioned his chin, but it was solid. His main weakness was lack of a proper work ethic and laziness, which keeps him from rating with the elite fighters.

Evander Holyfield: A good all around performer, “The Real Deal” could punch well, box, move, counter, had loads of heart and durability and was a fine ring general. Not among the greatest punchers but he could finish a man when he was hurt. Holyfield mixed great performances with lackluster ones and his inconsistence performances keep him from ranking higher. Holyfield was a good boxer but tended to abandon defense and slug it out and this would hurt him against many of the best punchers. Holyfield also had a tendency to tire in some important fights including Holmes, Foreman, Bowe 1 and 3, and Michael Moorer fights. The fact that aged (40 plus) versions of Holmes and Foreman could do well with him leaves one to believe that the prime versions would have beaten him.

Sam Langford: Was never a champion nor was he truly a heavyweight at his peak, yet he knocked out nearly every top heavyweight of his era at least once. Perhaps Mike Silver described him best, “His short hook on the inside and his right cross and uppercut were particularly deadly. His punishing jab was also one of the best. He was a strategist who knew how to maneuver, with the ability to explode out of an offensive or defensive position. He could instantly stop when retreating, revert to the offensive, and in the blink of an eye render an opponent unconscious with trip-hammer blows thrown in four and five punch combinations. Langford's every move embodied the technique of a studied master boxer. During his prime he was rarely outfought, out-thought, or out-punched." Langford has more knockouts than Mike Tyson and George Foreman combined. The only reason he doesn’t rank higher is because he was at his peak as a light-heavyweight.



The Small But Clever Boxers

Gene Tunney: The “Fighting Marine” was an intelligent boxer with a nice jab, clever footwork, and solid punching. He also possessed a strong chin and was down only once in his career. Tunney was a master boxer who could find the weakness in any opponent's style and exploit it. Was at his peak at light-heavyweight, where I rate him # 2 amongst all 175 pounders, but he was also a very fine heavyweight boxer deserving a ranking among the 20 best ever.

James J. Corbett: Slick and quick Corbett was a master boxer who at an old age impressed Gene Tunney while sparring. Corbett had great stamina, mobility, and a fine jab. He weighed near or at 190 pounds. He was intelligent and innovative, Corbett is often credited as being the inventor of the left hook. Corbett was also an outstanding amateur winning a Golden Gloves Championship and Seven Silver Championship Cups in Amateur Boxing on the Pacific Coast. He frustrated his opposition with clever out boxing and counter-punching.

Ezzard Charles: The “Cincinnati Cobra” was an excellent boxer who looks very good on film. He had speed of and hand and foot, mobility, sharp accurate punching, flashy combinations, countering ability, and endurance. He was an expert technician. Ezzard possessed a knockout punch until the death of opponent Sam Baroudi, after that he was more content to outbox opponents than really hurt them. He was at his peak as a light-heavyweight defeating Archie Moore 3 of 3. He made 9 successful defenses of the heavyweight title. His chin is somewhat suspect as he was knocked out several times.

Jersey Joe Walcott: Crafty, cunning and possessor of a strong punch Walcott was a master at feinting and counter-punching who also possessed clever footwork. His slick moves, jukes, and perfectly timed counters would cause problems for many a great fighter. The oldest man in heavyweight history to win the title until George Foreman.

Max Schmeling: A very smart counter-puncher with a strong right hand. He knew how to feint and set his man up. He was a good all around performer in the ring. Nat Fleischer regarded Schmeling as the most under-rated of all the heavyweight champions that he saw in his lifetime. Hank Kaplan noted Schmeling had “the best straight right hand, down the pipe and between the gloves” that he had ever seen on film

Hey, Monte, I didn't know you posted here. As you know, I've always liked your list -- but you still under-rate the Manassa Mauler....

[Klee Gluckman]

Holyfiled's resume is awesome. He fought good fighters all his career, and gave very few boring fights. I think that he is underated for that reason. He fought 5 of the top 15 heavyweight champions of all time, not many can say that.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Fair point, Klee, but it shouldn't be lost that, while Foreman (&, to a lesser, extent, Holmes) proved to still be extremely formidable, those two men were light-years removed from what they were at their absolute peak. Like I say, they were, especially in the case of Foreman, still quality opposition, but neither were much more than a shadow of what they once represented.

Of course, on the other side of the coin, Holyfield --- albeit, to a lesser extent --- was past-it when he twice tackled a peak Lewis. I think he atoned for what was almost a career-worst humiliation in their first fight with an inspired effort, second-go around.

[Grimm]

Great list man.

I may have the order a little bit different but I'm pretty sure I would have all of these guys in the top 20.

[Zelley]

MARCIANO was undefeated, so what did all those rated above Marciano in the poll
have that would be any different?

As he was never defeated, any selection to pick others over Marciano is pure speculation
based on weight and height. Skill, power and heart don't appear to count in some
of the "Modern day thinkers". The question is not if the others could stop Marciano, but how many could last if a Marciano right fist was bounced off their chin or neck. :idea:

[ThatOne]

MARCIANO was undefeated, so what did all those rated above Marciano in the poll
have that would be any different?

As he was never defeated, any selection to pick others over Marciano is pure speculation
based on weight and height. Skill, power and heart don't appear to count in some
of the "Modern day thinkers". The question is not if the others could stop Marciano, but how many could last if a Marciano right fist was bounced off their chin or neck. :idea:

Based on your logic Joe Calzaghe is the greatest light heavyweight to have ever lived.

Is that correct?

[chiricahua]

1. Louis
2. Ali
3. Holmes
4. Holyfield
5. Foreman
6. J Johnson
7. Lewis
8. Frazier
9. Marciano
10. Liston

Holyfield number 4????

Dempsey has, "a chance" against the Frazier who fought Bonavena the first time!?

You're a funny little fellow. You don't know what you're looking at, thirty years as an observer or not.

It's funny isn't it?
Thirty years?I would give him 30 days,but he showed up here in 2004.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hard to take offense to criticism from a Tyson nutcuddler. I know you're still upset at the drubbing #4 gave your God.