Rodrigo Valdez

[Seamus]

This is kind of a spinoff from the Hagler v Monzon thread.

Curious to get opinions on the outstanding Colombian fighter. Should he be in the HOF ? Is he a top 20 MW of alltime ?

Also. Can anyone tell me how they scored either of his 2 title bouts with Carlos Monzon ? I only saw the second, and that was back in the 70's. I seem to remember having Monzon winning by 3. I watched a little of both fights tonight (2 rds each I think) and I was really impressed with the way Valdez was pressuring Monzon. I thought he won the 4rds I watched, but now I have to find the time to score the other 26.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think he is one of the most underrated fighters ever and should definitely be in the HOF. The Monzon fights were both very close imo. I don't own them to offer a scorecard and have seen them only once many years ago.

[bennie]

The 11th round cost Valdez in the rematch. One round can do that.

[giacomino]

Have to agree he belongs in the HOF. Dude was a beast and would have dominated the division during much of the 1970s if not for Monzon. The fact that he Ko'd Briscoe in 1974 when nobody else could says a ton. I haven't watched the fights in several years, but I seem to remember scoring both for Monzon but only by a couple of rounds. Valdez beat Briscoe the next time out but looked like crap in losing the title to Hugo Corro in 1978. Seems like he got old overnight because Corro made him look like a plodder and Corro was certainly no Monzon or Hagler.

[raylawpc]

I agree with 99% of what Jim Amato wrote in this article (I am not so convinced about Hopkins), and 100% of what he wrote about Valdez, so I share Jim's article here as it is well written and reflects my views on Valdez to a the proverbial "T":

"By Jim Amato: With all the recent hoopla for the respected Bernard Hopkins and his adding to the legacy of great Philly fighters. Well, here goes. The great city of Philadelphia has produced an array of world class middleweights over the years. Hopkins has brought great pride to the long line of Philly middleweights who came before him. Tough guys like Stanley "Kitten" Hayward, Eugene "Cyclone" Hart, Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts, Willie "The Worm" Monroe and possibly he toughest of them all, "Bad" Bennie Briscoe.

When people talk of Bernard Hopkins, now, they compare him to Stanley Ketchel, Harry Greb, Sugar Ray Robinson and his more recent contemporaries, Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler. However, many people often forget a classy and fine middleweight named Rodrigo Valdez (63-8, 43 KO's).

Valdez was a world class fighter who suffered from the "De Jesus" syndrome. That is, like the outstanding Estaban DeJesus, he was overshadowed in his career by the skill of Roberto Duran. So too was Rodrigo Valdez overshadowed by Carlos Monzon (87-3-9, 59 KO's). However, if you take Duran And Monzon out of the picture, then DeJesus and Valdez probably would be in the Boxing Hall Of Fame.

Born in Columbia in 1946, Rodrigo Valdez turned pro in 1963. He racked up an impressive record in his homeland and then invaded the US in 1969. In 1970, he dropped decisions to fringe contenders Pete Toro and Ralph Palladin.

In 1971, Valdez moved into the big time by stopping the rugged Bobby Cassidy in seven rounds. In 1972, he scored a big win over the clever boxer, Carlos Marks.

In 1973, Valdez outscored the always tough Jose Gonzalez. Later in the year, Valdez took on the dangerous Bennie Briscoe (66-24-5, 53 KO's). Valdez won an upset twelve round verdict and entered the elite of the middleweight division.

In 1974, the WBC decided to no longer recognize Carlos Monzon as the middleweight titleholder.* Instead, they paired Valdez and Briscoe in a match for the vacant title. In a shocker, Valdez scored a one punch seventh round KO over the usually unstoppable Briscoe. He may not have been the real champion (Carlos Monzon was considered to be the real Middleweight champion) but this victory, and how he achieved it, established Rodrigo as Monzon's number one threat.

Valdez would defend his version of the crown four times, turning back Gratien Tonna, Ramon Mendez, Rudy Robles and Max Cohen. Finally, on June 26, 1976, Valdez stepped into the ring in Monte Carlo to meet the great Carlos Monzon.

In this well contested battle, Monzon proved to be just a little too much, as he won a close decision to unify the title. Still, Valdez's showing was so good that the two would meet again thirteen months later. This bout produced a classic between the two best middleweights in the world at that time. "King" Carlos Monzon picked himself off the floor in the second round and rallied to pull out a very close decision to retain his title.

After two wars with Valdez and the effects of Father Time, Carlos Monzon decided to retire. Again, Valdez was matched with the aging but still potent Briscoe for the vacant title. Once again, Valdez would prove to be Briscoe's master by taking a hard earned points call and the championship.

It has been said over the years that a fighter can get old overnight, even the great ones. This seemed to happen to Valdez. Maybe after the two wars with Monzon and a trilogy with Bennie Briscoe, the wear and tear began to set in. Anyway, a slick boxer from Argentina, named Hugo Corro, outspeeded and outboxed Valdez to win the title. Their rematch seven months later saw that youth was again served as Corro outscored a very old looking Valdez.

How can I not have the utmost respect for Rodrigo Valdez? This man took Carlos Monzon to hell and back not once but twice. Bennie Briscoe was one of my all time favorite fighters but Valdez owned him. As far as I'm concerned, Valdez has not received the recognition that is due to him.

Bernard Hopkins has made a believer out of me. We'll never know if he could have defeated Greb, Zale or Monzon. I'll say this, win or lose he would have had his hands full with a boxer named Rodrigo Valdez."

* raylawpc note: They inexplicably stipped Monzon for the title for defending against an ATG welterweight champion Jose Napoles instead of Valdez. A strange call by the WBC.

Regarding Seamus' question on scoring the fight, I honestly don't remember my exact scores. I thought the first fight was a tough contest but clearly a Monzon victory. I probably had him up 4 or 5 points. The second fight was much closer, but I thought Carlos pulled it out over the last half of the fight, and won by a couple of points.

[Seamus]

And now to begin World War III, I just watched all 15 rounds of Monzon v Valdez I on Youtube, and my opinion.

RODRIGO VALDEZ WAS ROBBED ! I couldn't see Monzon winning more than 5 rds tops. and his knockdown of Valdez in the 14th was nothing more than a slip. Valdez pressured Monzon almost constantly throughout the fight, and he easily landed the 10 best shots of the bout.

[BoxBuzz]

Hey Seamus, check out the good deal!

[Seamus]

Watched about 6 rds of there second fight and Monzon was doing much better despite the knockdown. Valdez didn't look as aggressive as he did in the first fight. I thought Monzon won 4 of the 6 rds, but then with my poor eyesight, Valdez may have won all 6.

[dempseyfire]

Have to say, I find Valdez to be one of the most OVER-RATED of middleweights. Besides giving Monzon two good scraps which he lost definitively, his resume is pretty lacking besides wins over Briscoe. He had a great punch in every other department I consider him good not great. A very good fighter but far from a top 20 ATG middleweight.

[BoxBuzz]

Seamus I believe you report what you see and you interpret it honestly. I also have respect for your opinions.

It amazes me that different people can watch the same thing and come away with such different takes.

I mean this seriously. Your take on Monzon is mystifying to me. It's like you have a blind eye for his work...perhaps in the same way I have one for Pryor. And I do not mean for one moment to jab at your integrity. People really do see different things. Perhaps the wild scoring we see in some matches has nothing to do with conspiracy or even incompetence but really is simply peoples grey matter processing things in different ways.

[raylawpc]

Have to say, I find Valdez to be one of the most OVER-RATED of middleweights. Besides giving Monzon two good scraps which he lost definitively, his resume is pretty lacking besides wins over Briscoe. He had a great punch in every other department I consider him good not great. A very good fighter but far from a top 20 ATG middleweight.

Nobody with three wins over a near-prime Bennie Briscoe has a resume that is lacking, in my opinion.

[Seamus]

On the contrary Buzz. I watched Monzon dice up Nino Benvenuti twice, and what amazes me about that was what an outstanding fighter he stopped. I also said that if Hagler fought Monzon the way he did Duran and Antuofermo the first time, there's a good chance he loses, so it's not like I'm disrespecting Monzon.

Do people observe fights differently ? I'm sure they do, but honestly, what I saw in Monzon v Valdez I was the Colombian pressuring Monzon consistently for 15 rds, rocking him several times and landing numerous shots. Monzon landed quite afew back, but as I saw it they were pretty much ineffective in hurting or slowing up Valdez. In Monzon's defense, he was the older man with alot more bouts against better opposition and was nearing the end of a great career. Valdez on the other hand, while an outstanding fighter never came close to matching his fellow South American's achievements and not long afterwards got old fast.

[raylawpc]

I thought Monzon won both fights - the first by a wider margin than the second. But that's just my opinion. Opinions are like noses - everybody has one. But the only opinions that count are those of the officials. They had Monzon winning both fights by unanimous decision.

I do agree with your assessment of Benvenuti - who is now largely forgotten. Its sad. He was a great fighter.

[giacomino]

I thought Monzon won both fights - the first by a wider margin than the second. But that's just my opinion. Opinions are like noses - everybody has one. But the only opinions that count are those of the officials. They had Monzon winning both fights by unanimous decision.

I do agree with your assessment of Benvenuti - who is now largely forgotten. Its sad. He was a great fighter.

Don't mean this to be a Benvenuti tribute, but have to agree. Monzon's KOs of Benvenuti are, IMO, underrated, especially the first one, when Benvenuti was only a year removed from his KO of the great Luis Manuel Rodriguez. The first Benvenuti-Monzon fight was a great passing of the torch moment in the division. Benvenuti was a great junior middleweight and middleweight champion and Italy's finest.

[raylawpc]

I thought Monzon won both fights - the first by a wider margin than the second. But that's just my opinion. Opinions are like noses - everybody has one. But the only opinions that count are those of the officials. They had Monzon winning both fights by unanimous decision.

I do agree with your assessment of Benvenuti - who is now largely forgotten. Its sad. He was a great fighter.

Don't mean this to be a Benvenuti tribute, but have to agree. Monzon's KOs of Benvenuti are, IMO, underrated, especially the first one, when Benvenuti was only a year removed from his KO of the great Luis Manuel Rodriguez. The first Benvenuti-Monzon fight was a great passing of the torch moment in the division. Benvenuti was a great junior middleweight and middleweight champion and Italy's finest.

Benvenuti deserves a tribute page. Its a sin the way he is forgotten - although I understand he is a national icon in Italy.

[My2Sense]

Have to say, I find Valdez to be one of the most OVER-RATED of middleweights. Besides giving Monzon two good scraps which he lost definitively, his resume is pretty lacking besides wins over Briscoe. He had a great punch in every other department I consider him good not great. A very good fighter but far from a top 20 ATG middleweight.

I've never been as "sold" on Valdez as a lot of people either. I think he came around at a time when the division was a bit lacking in depth. He had a tremendous punch and was very tough, but in other areas he was somewhat limited. It's possible he could squeeze into my top 20, but he wouldn't be much higher than that. I don't believe he was on par with the ATGs at the weight.

[My2Sense]

Also. Can anyone tell me how they scored either of his 2 title bouts with Carlos Monzon ?

I thought Monzon outboxed him clearly in the first fight and should've won by a sizable margin.

The second fight I thought was very close and possibly could've gone either way. I'd have to watch that again sometime.

Incidentally, both fights are on Youtube I believe.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Have to say, I find Valdez to be one of the most OVER-RATED of middleweights. Besides giving Monzon two good scraps which he lost definitively, his resume is pretty lacking besides wins over Briscoe. He had a great punch in every other department I consider him good not great. A very good fighter but far from a top 20 ATG middleweight.

I've never been as "sold" on Valdez as a lot of people either. I think he came around at a time when the division was a bit lacking in depth. He had a tremendous punch and was very tough, but in other areas he was somewhat limited. It's possible he could squeeze into my top 20, but he wouldn't be much higher than that. I don't believe he was on par with the ATGs at the weight.

The end of the top 20 at Middleweight is certainly HOF. I'm not saying the guy was greater than Gene Fullmer(one of the most underrated imo) but guys like Rodrigo & Castillo at Lightweight get glossed over like they weren't even around. Not to slam you, but 30 wicked rds with Monzon and stopping Briscoe in 3 fights is pretty damn awesome, not just besides.

[Ezzard]

I'd back Valdez to beat Fullmer.

[raylawpc]

Have to say, I find Valdez to be one of the most OVER-RATED of middleweights. Besides giving Monzon two good scraps which he lost definitively, his resume is pretty lacking besides wins over Briscoe. He had a great punch in every other department I consider him good not great. A very good fighter but far from a top 20 ATG middleweight.

I've never been as "sold" on Valdez as a lot of people either. I think he came around at a time when the division was a bit lacking in depth. He had a tremendous punch and was very tough, but in other areas he was somewhat limited. It's possible he could squeeze into my top 20, but he wouldn't be much higher than that. I don't believe he was on par with the ATGs at the weight.

The end of the top 20 at Middleweight is certainly HOF. I'm not saying the guy was greater than Gene Fullmer(one of the most underrated imo) but guys like Rodrigo & Castillo at Lightweight get glossed over like they weren't even around. Not to slam you, but 30 wicked rds with Monzon and stopping Briscoe in 3 fights is pretty damn awesome, not just besides.

Valdez didn't stop Briscoe three times. He stopped him once and decisioned him twice.

[dempseyfire]

I'd back Valdez to beat Fullmer.

I'd happily take you on that. Fullmer was a skilled aggressor but much better than the over-rated Briscoe, who was a fan favorite b/c of his style and tough as nails but please the guy blocked punches with his face and really lacked snap on much of his shots. I don't see three wins over Briscoe and knocking Monzon down catapulting anyone into ATG status. Again, I'm not trying to bash Valdez . . he had decent skills, a great punch, and was tough and durable himself. But I think put him in the much deeper middleweight division of the late 50s/early-mid 60s he's a top 10 guy but never gets as recognized as he was in the late 70s.

[mhagler91490]

I'd back Valdez to beat Fullmer.

I'd happily take you on that. Fullmer was a skilled aggressor but much better than the over-rated Briscoe, who was a fan favorite b/c of his style and tough as nails but please the guy blocked punches with his face and really lacked snap on much of his shots. I don't see three wins over Briscoe and knocking Monzon down catapulting anyone into ATG status. Again, I'm not trying to bash Valdez . . he had decent skills, a great punch, and was tough and durable himself. But I think put him in the much deeper middleweight division of the late 50s/early-mid 60s he's a top 10 guy but never gets as recognized as he was in the late 70s.

You make it sound like Briscoe took every punch on the chin, he didn't get hit clean all that much, most punches landed on the top of his head and he kept his chin buried in his chest almost all of the time, I think Rodrigo is underrated, not to be mentioned besides guys like Robinson, Monzon or Greb in terms of accomplishment but I always thought his talent was apparent and underappreciated.

[dempseyfire]

I'd back Valdez to beat Fullmer.

I'd happily take you on that. Fullmer was a skilled aggressor but much better than the over-rated Briscoe, who was a fan favorite b/c of his style and tough as nails but please the guy blocked punches with his face and really lacked snap on much of his shots. I don't see three wins over Briscoe and knocking Monzon down catapulting anyone into ATG status. Again, I'm not trying to bash Valdez . . he had decent skills, a great punch, and was tough and durable himself. But I think put him in the much deeper middleweight division of the late 50s/early-mid 60s he's a top 10 guy but never gets as recognized as he was in the late 70s.

You make it sound like Briscoe took every punch on the chin, he didn't get hit clean all that much, most punches landed on the top of his head and he kept his chin buried in his chest almost all of the time, I think Rodrigo is underrated, not to be mentioned besides guys like Robinson, Monzon or Greb in terms of accomplishment but I always thought his talent was apparent and underappreciated.

He kept his chin tucked but his come forward style and often wide shots made him eat counter punches like they were candy in kindergarten class. There is a reason Briscoe practically lost every fight vs an elite opponent he was ever in, the exceptions being the draw vs an untested Monzon and a early victory over a past-it Georgie Benton.

[Ezzard]

Fullmer had phenomenal durability and endurance for the division. He seemed easier to get to than he really was. But even so, an underrated defence is not the same as a solid defence. Fullmer will be trading with a bigger, more accurate, puncher, as he tries to impose his physical strength on the fight. Take into consideration that Rodrigo was durable himself I feel that it all stacks up nicely in Valdez's favour.