1959-2009: The Greatest Fighter of the Last 50 Years

[I Feel Fine]

Fighters legacies don't live or die with one fight, however big the perception of that fight may be. Coming back to win a trilogy trumps nearly anything, whether it be for Ali or for Duran. There is more to boxing than the spectacle of a big event, and the rematches were hardly small events.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You're a hard man if you fault Ali for his efforts in three fights with Frazier, IMO.

[elmersalsa]

World's smallest violin playing for Frazier. He lost the trilogy, deal with it.

But you don't want to admit that Ali lost in the biggest fight of the century. The fight that everybody wanted to see. Frazier was the clear winner. That is a fact. You don't want to admit that Joe was never the same after that fight.

Anybody could have beaten Frazier after the Fight of the Century. He probably was not finished, but WAY FAR from what he was in his prime.

Nobody is playing violin for Joe...I am just stating the facts, pal, deal with it.

[Seamus]

But what Ali did in Kinshasa trumps anything Frazier ever did. He took on the Baddest Man on the Planet and mugged him.

[The Great John L]

But what Ali did in Kinshasa trumps anything Frazier ever did. He took on the Baddest Man on the Planet and mugged him.

Hmmm, I seem to recall Frazier accomplishing something in 1971 that might just trump that one...

[I Feel Fine]

Elmer... you don't seem to comprehend English.

[hitman09]

Duran, with Ali not far behind him IMO. Those two are the clear top 2 IMO. After that Monzon, Hagler and Jofre round out the top 5, in no particular order.

[elmersalsa]

But what Ali did in Kinshasa trumps anything Frazier ever did. He took on the Baddest Man on the Planet and mugged him.

I don't think so...I believe that Smokin Joe victory over Ali was greater. It was the biggest fight in boxing.

The only thing that I rate Ali over Frazier at heavyweight and pound per pound was that Ali had more longevity and more fights....That's all.

But prime per prime, both were the same in my view.

[I Feel Fine]

There are not too many other cases where you can so clearly show point for point why one fighter is better than the other. Ali beat more of the champions, more of the contenders, more of the hall of famers of that 60s-70s era than Frazier did. Ali had almost twice as many defenses. Ali was champion when Frazier turned pro, was champion when Frazier retired for the first time in '76. Ali was named fighter of the year more times than Joe and was involved in more fights of the year. An older, slower Ali was able to come off a long layoff and beat all of the big names that a prime Joe had beaten during Ali's absence. You perhaps can't find a clearer case of one fighter in one year so completely out shining his contemporary as Ali did in '74 where he not only beat Joe and avenged his loss but knocked out the guy who demolished Joe, becoming a two time champion, something that Joe never did. Frazier probably has nightmares about that year. Ignoring the fact that Ali knocked out the guy that demolished Joe twice shows evident bias and a clear lack of objectivity.
Pointing to one historically close and competitive fight where a rusty Ali dropped a decision due mostly to uncharacteristic fatigue in the championship rounds coming off a 43 month layoff and then ignoring the rematches is an arbitrary whitewash of the lowest order.
Hypothetical's are unneeded, Ali proved in the ring that he was better than Joe, but had Ali not been exiled there is a very reasonable chance that Frazier would have never been champion. Frazier is to Ali what the Red Sox are to the Yankees... many people love to hate the Yankees, and find solace in their hated adversary. And that is fair enough, no one one should be criticized for that, it is an admirable quality to pull for the underdog and I often do. But when you ignore the 26 championships and the 39 pennants and say that the Red Sox are the historically better organization, then you're not being serious.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

There are not too many other cases where you can so clearly show point for point why one fighter is better than the other. Ali beat more of the champions, more of the contenders, more of the hall of famers of that 60s-70s era than Frazier did. Ali had almost twice as many defenses. Ali was champion when Frazier turned pro, was champion when Frazier retired for the first time in '76. Ali was named fighter of the year more times than Joe and was involved in more fights of the year. An older, slower Ali was able to come off a long layoff and beat all of the big names that a prime Joe had beaten during Ali's absence. You perhaps can't find a clearer case of one fighter in one year so completely out shining his contemporary as Ali did in '74 where he not only beat Joe and avenged his loss but knocked out the guy who demolished Joe, becoming a two time champion, something that Joe never did. Frazier probably has nightmares about that year. Ignoring the fact that Ali knocked out the guy that demolished Joe twice shows evident bias and a clear lack of objectivity.

- Ignoring that Joe was the only one of the storied golden 70s heavies who actually fancied a rematch against Foreman says much more about your clear bias and lack of objectivity when it comes to rating Ali.

Ali was not the best heavy of the 60s as I have mentioned before. That was Joe who was 7-0, 6 KO in title fights to close out his 3 yr run with the title for the 60s. By circumstance Ali had 1 extra year to squeeze in Terrell and Folley, perhaps a bit of under-appreciated genius, but Joe had beaten more credible prime opposition more convincingly before winning the title, dismissing 3 of Ali's toughest ring opponents quite easily in Daniels, Jones, and Chuvalo.

Terrell may have held the paper title that Ali was obliged to fight for, but Joe was the best contender in the division to Ali's title by the date of that fight. Moreover, lest you put up a squawk with a weak washerwoman argument, Joe closed out the 60s by beating 5 future Ali opponents, dismissing them much easier than did Ali overall before whooping Ali hisself to start the 70s.

As far as Joe having nightmares, my little friend, Joe doesn't live the nightmare that Ali is cursed with. So what if Ali won one more FOY than did Joe or had a longer career? Joe never dropped a FOY to Leon neither. His style was more dependent on superior conditioning and reflexes of youth than Ali's junky ropa-dope spoiler style in his comeback.

Regardless, Joe the superior heavy at the close of the 60s and Duran as an elite p4p fighter the obvious correct answer to the thread header.

Unless we are rating by fame only. That category owned by Ali.

[I Feel Fine]

That is simply bad analysis. Ali and Frazier did about as well against most of their common opponents, notably Ali did better against Quarry, Bonavena and Bugner and notably Joe did better against Jones (who wasn't the same fighter when Frazier fought him), Chuvalo and Mathis (who wasn't the same fighter when Ali fought him). But what Ali did against Foreman single handedly puts common opposition bragging rights in Ali's favor.There was no big win that Frazier had on his resume that Ali didn't have when all was said and done, while the same cannot be said for Joe who did not fight Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Folley, Norton, Lyle and who lost to Big Goerge. Talking about Leon is silliness, I could just as well name Jumbo Cummings, and if Frazier had fought on consistently until '78 against top opposition the way that Ali did Joe would probably have more losses than Ali does.
Serious analysis does not allow for you to ignore rematches or ignore what they did against Foreman. Sorry. I will repeat what I said earlier; there probably aren't many other examples where you can so easily show point by point why one fighter is better than another. Ali is usually top 1-2 among Heavyweights, Frazier usually somewhere from 5-10, which is pretty accurate.

[Collins2000]

Ali was not the best heavy of the 60s

Delusional or what?

[BoxBuzz]

Well the score was Ali 2 Frazier 1 as I recall. And in the final round of the final bout Joe just couldn't make the bell. When the glove was on the other hand in the first go round, Ali got up off of the deck to finish the event.

Also early KO's are not always indicative of more brutal beatings than one sided decisions. Which I think is being asserted here in regards to Joe vs Ali's record of accomplishment. though I will absolutely admit that there may be nothing in Heavyweight history that can compare with a good old Fashioned Joe Frazier style beating.

And certain moments of "deficit" are not always purely representative of just a shortcoming. Out of pure curiosity BRR answer me this.

Which is a greater accomplishment?

A. Joe Knocking Iron chinned Ali off of his feet in round 15, in of one of the hardest fought fights of all time.

OR

B. Ali getting back up and INTO the fight...after doling out a lot of punishment AND taking a good old fashioned Joe Frazier style beating for 15 rounds.


I'm hard pressed to decide. I know you'll have the answer.


Oh and Leon thing was surely bad, but so was the night with Jumbo. They both lost those fights, though one was given a gift.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well the score was Ali 2 Frazier 1 as I recall. And in the final round of the final bout Joe just couldn't make the bell. When the glove was on the other hand in the first go round, Ali got up off of the deck to finish the event.

Also early KO's are not always indicative of more brutal beatings than one sided decisions. Which I think is being asserted here in regards to Joe vs Ali's record of accomplishment. though I will absolutely admit that there may be nothing in Heavyweight history that can compare with a good old Fashioned Joe Frazier style beating.

And certain moments of "deficit" are not always purely representative of just a shortcoming. Out of pure curiosity BRR answer me this.

Which is a greater accomplishment?

A. Joe Knocking Iron chinned Ali off of his feet in round 15, in of one of the hardest fought fights of all time.

OR

B. Ali getting back up and INTO the fight...after doling out a lot of punishment AND taking a good old fashioned Joe Frazier style beating for 15 rounds.


I'm hard pressed to decide. I know you'll have the answer.


Oh and Leon thing was surely bad, but so was the night with Jumbo. They both lost those fights, though one was given a gift.

-Working back, Joe was not representing himself as the unified undisputed heavy champ of the world against Jumbo. I would think that was self evident, but obviously not.

Next, Ali/Frazier 1 wasn't FOY and wasn't one of the hardest fought fights ever although overall it was fought at one of the highest levels from a prime technical and stylistic perspective. Substantial blocks of time featured Joe delivering a one sided beating. Ali kept some drama in the fight by staging sporadic comebacks, but I wouldn't say he fought his way back into the fight after the KD, more like he did the work to survive.

Finally, Joe was never granted the opportunity to come off the deck. Ali never knocked him down. Joe's corner, Eddie Futch pulled him in the rubber. Joe was perfectly game to go that final round, more so than Ali who was the one actually wanting to quit. Ali wins a "technical" KO according to the rules, but many think Joe would've knocked him down and kept him down that last round including Joe himself, so let's not get too gaudy over a technical victory.

[granberry]

Well the score was Ali 2 Frazier 1 as I recall. And in the final round of the final bout Joe just couldn't make the bell. When the glove was on the other hand in the first go round, Ali got up off of the deck to finish the event.

Also early KO's are not always indicative of more brutal beatings than one sided decisions. Which I think is being asserted here in regards to Joe vs Ali's record of accomplishment. though I will absolutely admit that there may be nothing in Heavyweight history that can compare with a good old Fashioned Joe Frazier style beating.

And certain moments of "deficit" are not always purely representative of just a shortcoming. Out of pure curiosity BRR answer me this.

Which is a greater accomplishment?

A. Joe Knocking Iron chinned Ali off of his feet in round 15, in of one of the hardest fought fights of all time.

OR

B. Ali getting back up and INTO the fight...after doling out a lot of punishment AND taking a good old fashioned Joe Frazier style beating for 15 rounds.


I'm hard pressed to decide. I know you'll have the answer.


Oh and Leon thing was surely bad, but so was the night with Jumbo. They both lost those fights, though one was given a gift.

Buz,

the epitome of the mind-numbed Ali shill,

proudly regurgitating the tired and pathetic Thomas Hauser talking-points for the sicko Religion of Ali .

[I Feel Fine]

Granberry, BRR.... Ali must have stollen your lunch money in your younger years. No other explanation.
Ali didn't fight hard in the first fight and it wasn't the best fight of the year, much less any year... Frazier's performance against Cummings means less because he didn't have a title... revisionism about Manila... pretty clear that this is not a real attempt at analysis. Just an effort to throw out any random smear of Ali's career and hope that one sticks.
To answer buzz's question, I would say: Ali getting up < Frazier knocking Ali down < Ali stopping Frazier
Thomas Hauser didn't win the trilogy for Ali, Ali did.

[granberry]

Granberry, BRR.... Ali must have stollen your lunch money in your younger years. No other explanation.
Ali didn't fight hard in the first fight and it wasn't the best fight of the year, much less any year... Frazier's performance against Cummings means less because he didn't have a title... revisionism about Manila... pretty clear that this is not a real attempt at analysis. Just an effort to throw out any random smear of Ali's career and hope that one sticks.
To answer buzz's question, I would say: Ali getting up < Frazier knocking Ali down < Ali stopping Frazier
Thomas Hauser didn't win the trilogy for Ali, Ali did.

It's tough to be an Ali Shill, isn't it.

I feel your agony.

LOL

[granberry]

World's smallest violin playing for Frazier. He lost the trilogy, deal with it.

That is another TRUE FACT...Nobody is denying that. But you are denying that Ali lost the biggest fight of his career in the biggest night in boxing.

I am not playing violin for Smokin' Joe...I am just stating the facts. Deal with it, pal.

Elmer NAILED it.

[BoxBuzz]

No problem with Elmer's statement...it's what gives Joe such great legitimate bragging rights. It was a fantastic night for him and though he didn't win the war he can certainly lay claim to winning the greatest battle.

But The anti Ali regimens have their talking points and aint nobody gunna tell 'em udderwise. So I like 'em! We need the voices of the efitte' and uniformed....or is it the unfit and uninformed? I forget which, Anywho.....I'm just glad BRR is here to give granny some good company. Together they will provide a good minority report. We need all sides represented.

The numbers are not likely to change, Ali, Duran and Monzon. Not a bad listing. Though it's hard to see the numbers on Jofre be so minimal. IMHO. Interesting though, I was just checking out back where they make the sausage and heard tell that ol granner voted for Ali....what's up with that gran?

[granberry]

I feel for you buz.

It's tough being a shill for the Religion of Ali.

But buz never wavers.

LOL



Remember buz,

"If Thomas Hauser didn't say it, it isn't true."

[Collins2000]

I never thought I'd say it, but I am now beginning to suspect BRR actually is more in touch with boxing reality than granberry.

A re-post of that picture gran shared with us of that big lad's muscular back together with the loving praise that accompanied it might sway me back to the gran side though.

[I Feel Fine]

If knockdowns tell the story of your career then Joe Frazier is one of the worst Heavyweight champions of all time... Frazier was down ten times in his career, Ali only four... knockdowns are a dime a dozen in boxing, I don't see granberry saying that Leonard was better than Benitez because Leonard had Benitez down. Frazier getting stopped in the trilogy is much more consequential.

[granberry]

If knockdowns tell the story of your career then Joe Frazier is one of the worst Heavyweight champions of all time... Frazier was down ten times in his career, Ali only four... getting stopped means a lot more.

Ali shill Ifeelfine

has the gall to bring up knockdowns in relation to Ali and Frazier.

That's a winner.

Ali scored NO knockdowns in his three fights with Frazier

while Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

But an Ali shill can 'discuss' the subject hoping that no one sees the inanity of his Ali-selling "logic."

LOL

[I Feel Fine]

Granberry dancing around the point, as usual...

Frazier knocking Ali down was nice, it was an iconic moment in the sports history, and it says nothing about who was the better fighter. TKO's trump knockdowns, and Frazier was down a lot more often in his career. Unless you feel that Leonard was better than Benitez... do you dingleberry? Say it aint so.

[Collins2000]

Well that was a fun hour but now I have to leave you.

There's 4 cubic metres of earth out front that aint gonna shift itself.

Gran, time for you to get up and empty your colestomy bag, wash your false choppers and head on down town for next weeks supply of frozen dinners for one.

Ciao, big fella.