Joseph Calzaghe

[Wales]

Agreed James, we all know Hattons standing because when he fought the best, and im talking the very very best, in their prime he fell short.

wasnt mayweather a clear fave in all those fights except DLH where the odds where closer

thats same as joe's carrier i think mayweather seems to be bigger because he's big in america and was on HBO where as joe was on sky and free itv

I personally dont think its the same. Mayweather weight jumped and fought top 5 guys in each weight, Calzaghe probably had 3 "big" fights, maybe 5 if you count eubank and jones jr all of which he started as betting fav.

Corrales (prime)
Castillo (prime) x2
Jesus chavez (practically undefeated)
weight jump
African banger N'dou
weight jump
Corley
Gatti
weight jump
Sharmba MItchell (shot though)
Judah
Baldomir
DLH
Hatton

[banjo]

Im not slating joe, or bigging up floyd banjo... but look at the fighters PBF stepped UP to fight in Hatton, De La Hoya, Judah, Gatti, Baldmoir or corrales when both were undefeated. mayweather has a far far stronger resume.

The point I'm getting at is the whole "prime v prime" thing, it rarely ever happens.

Joe never beat a prime Hopkins or Jones Jr.
Jones Jr never beat a prime McCallum
Terry Norris never beat a prime Ray Leonard who never beat a prime Hagler.
Floyd never beat a prime DLH who in turn never beat a prime Whitaker.

Do you get what I mean? You can only beat what is infront of you at the end of the day rather than wondering what if and all that.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Im not slating joe, or bigging up floyd banjo... but look at the fighters PBF stepped UP to fight in Hatton, De La Hoya, Judah, Gatti, Baldmoir or corrales when both were undefeated. mayweather has a far far stronger resume.

The point I'm getting at is the whole "prime v prime" thing, it rarely ever happens.

Joe never beat a prime Hopkins or Jones Jr.
Jones Jr never beat a prime McCallum
Terry Norris never beat a prime Ray Leonard who never beat a prime Hagler.
Floyd never beat a prime DLH who in turn never beat a prime Whitaker.

Do you get what I mean? You can only beat what is infront of you at the end of the day rather than wondering what if and all that.

Yes but Jones Junior beat the best fighters out there at 160 and 168, he was wiping the floor with Toney and Hopkins (arguably not at their primes for various reasons), but a hell of a lot better than the versions of Jones Jr and Hopkins he faced, at least they were under 40 for a start.

Jones Jr had his detractors, but his career up until he became champ at 175 was absolutely staggering, as was Mayweathers prior to 147.

[FLINT ISLAND]

best super middleweight champion of all time.

No - disagree

Roy Jones for me - best Super Middleweight of all time

Then Joe Calzaghe - based on solid achievement and consistency - although there are a number of fighters in their prime who could have beaten Joe on a given night

I would take a Prime Chris Eubank to have the skill and wit and intellgience to beat a Prime Joe Calzaghe

Calzaghe is not the only one - Chris Eubank built up a long undefeated record defending WBO Middleweight and WBO Super Middleweight titles..............

[Wales]

And say what you will, moving up 2 ro 3 weight divisions and fighting a tiop 5 fighter is a hell of an achievment. Calzaghe could of gone to light heavy in 2002ish, then cruiser. But he didnt.

[bynino]

what does it matter if you are the bookies favourite to beat someone?
PBF beat the top fighters in most of the divisions he competed in. Beat an undefeated champion in Ricky Hatton.
Joe could have done so much more. But at the end of the day he fought for the money. And made big money last year, close to 10million which is probably the more than he earned over his entire career prior to those!. I think he had a well managed career, the key is to keep winning and staying healthy (ala Mikey from Rocky 3 ). :P

[gemmell]

best super middleweight champion of all time.

extremely funny comment..very good fighter but not a great! only good win in 46 fights was kessler..hopkinds was old but still decent and jones fought for 3 rounds then threw an average of 9 punches per round..if froch win's the super 6 tourny he will go down as a better fighter!!!

[banjo]

best super middleweight champion of all time.

extremely funny comment..very good fighter but not a great! only good win in 46 fights was kessler..hopkinds was old but still decent and jones fought for 3 rounds then threw an average of 9 punches per round..if froch win's the super 6 tourny he will go down as a better fighter!!!

Only good win? What a load of crap.

Reid, Woodhall, Mitchell and Lacy were top 10 super middleweights when he fought them.

[stujones]

But all except for Lacy had been exposed before hand.

[whiskey]

Only good win? What a load of crap.

Reid, Woodhall, Mitchell and Lacy were top 10 super middleweights when he fought them.

I'd buy Reid & Lacy... but Woodhall was shot and retired straight after and i dont think Mitchell fought again (apart from a light heavy fight some 6 years later where he got KO'd in 2 rounds or something).

When you consider Joe was a pro for 17 years or something - and compare his record with someone like 7-year pro Miguel Cotto and they are like black & white.

On one hand, you have a guy fighting absolute dross like Branco Sobot and Evans Ashira for 10 long years...

...yet in just 7 years Cotto has fought a heap of former or gonna-be champions like Corley, N'dou Maussa, Torres, Bailey, Malignaggi, Quitana, Judah, Mosley, Clottey in difficult, packed divisions.

None of those guys retired straight after Cotto beat them - and he beat them in style.

Infact everyone of them won a title AFTER he beat them apart from Judah and Clottey (but they still will compete at the highest level) so that proves they were not brought in for a grand finale payday.

Calzaghe will be remembered for his unbeaten record... not his fights.

Perhaps the only reason he's not got a career DVD out is that it would about 12 discs to hold all those ugly, cuffing, slapping debatable points wins.

I'd rather watch paint dry than the 'greatest super middleweight of all time' shoe-shine his opponents to death.

[banjo]

But all except for Lacy had been exposed before hand.

Yeah but the poster said he had no good wins until he beat Kessler, I'm not saying he's a great fighter - he could have been but as I said earlier he didn't seem to want to leave his WBO comfort zone, personally I don't like the man, he's boring to watch and comes across as having a chip on his shoulder but to say decent fighters like Reid who was still close to his prime and could have beaten Joe that night aren't good wins is just plain disrespectful.

[Autobarn]

Calzaghe DID beat Hopkins when BH was still a top 10 p4p, so it still is a good win. Sort of, in an unwatchable kind of way. The Lacy and Kessler wins are outstanding performances over good young fighters. Not a lot else to get excited about, though Brewer and Mitchell were still strong and dangerous. In fact, the rest is very disjointed and disappointing.

I don't see the point in all these Calzaghe/Hopkins/Jones/Toney debates. Toney went for the best, but he had an eating disorder, combined with being a big weight drainer, saw him have a whopping 8 years in the wilderness with some embarrassing defeats (Thadzi, Griffin).

Hopkins - not an eventful career, until recent catchweights - in other words, pick on middleweights, Hops can't make middle anymore, stretch the rules, beat 'em at 172-175, his only effective weight these days. Hops killed all momentum post Tito, took a long time to get back in limelight. When it came it was a tedious, economical fight vs another blown up welter, DLH.

Jones Jr - HBO wanted to keep him, made sure he got a lot of money to fight "Eric and Derek" - he could fight whomever he chose so long as they made the top 10 of any alphabet rankings...Infamously, before Bryant Brannon fight, the commentary crew had a laugh - one of them yelled to Jones as he came in the ring, asking what round he was going to stop the guy, as they wanted to know which train to catch home. RJJ went from 1995 to 2002 without any big fights - shocking considering his status as boxing's best.

Things are different these days. Recession could be a good thing. Ppl have milked the udder with their greed too much. Now you have to do more for your reward. TV budgets have been cut, and there will be fewer no risk bouts for big money..Hence things like Super 6. Ambition, excitement, mix of styles. 20 defenses - "fvck off." Good fights, instead.

[Finn]

He beat some good solid fighters and he beat some fighters who shouldn't have been in the same ring as him and the two "great" fighters he beat were past there best.

I wouldn't go as far to say he's a coward but he certainly didn't seem to push for certain fights as much as he could have.

calzaghe was past his prime when he faught these fighters too. He didnt dodge any challenges he didnt get any challenges and had good reason to not make certain fights. Roy Jones jr dodged any fighter he could, benn, eubank, colins, calzaghe (until he really needed the fight).

I would bet good money that if lacey had never got in the ring with calzaghe, he would be a world champion now.

[opticald]

lacy was shite and we all know that. shieka was outboxing him for christ sakes and look at what he's accomplished since. He was never that good, as Robin Reid rightfully pointed out after he lost to Lacy. Mitchell and Brewer got beaten by Ottke first. Reid himself wasnt that good either and calzaghe aguably lost that one. calzaghe down against mitchell and salem heavily and had a VERY close win over 44 year old B-Hop (4/1 on befair after the 12 round calzaghe was). it's not rocket science to see what prime roy or prime hop would have done to joe.

[observer1]

lacy was shite and we all know that. shieka was outboxing him for christ sakes and look at what he's accomplished since. He was never that good, as Robin Reid rightfully pointed out after he lost to Lacy. Mitchell and Brewer got beaten by Ottke first. Reid himself wasnt that good either and calzaghe aguably lost that one. calzaghe down against mitchell and salem heavily and had a VERY close win over 44 year old B-Hop (4/1 on befair after the 12 round calzaghe was). it's not rocket science to see what prime roy or prime hop would have done to joe.

Well said.

[whiskey]

calzaghe was past his prime when he faught these fighters too. He didnt dodge any challenges he didnt get any challenges and had good reason to not make certain fights. Roy Jones jr dodged any fighter he could, benn, eubank, colins, calzaghe (until he really needed the fight).

I would bet good money that if lacey had never got in the ring with calzaghe, he would be a world champion now.

Give over yooth.

'Past his prime too, you know!' its what all Calzaghe fan's say in defence of the indefensible.

And you reckon Jones Junior dodged the british WBO trio of Eubank, Collins and Benn ?

Well in 1992 Eubank barely won a split decision over tough African Sugar Boy Malinga...

Then Benn managed a hard fought points win over Malinga just 2.5 months later ! (Malinga must have been Iron Man to do those two fights within 10 weeks of each other).

Within a year of those two fights, where he took Benn and Eubank all the way, Malinga went over to America to face Jones Junior and got the stuffing knocked out of him in 6 rounds. Nobody before or since gave him such a shelling.

3 years following on from the Jones KO defeat, Malinga would own Nigel Benn and also outpoint Robin Reid.

I love Eubank and Benn - but FFS only blind patriotism would make you believe they could live with a Roy Jones jr, or even a slim James Toney.

Eubank admitted as much that he did not want to fight Jones ever as he thought not only would he lose, but be embarrassed and knocked out. "I'm in the business of winning... and fighting Jones was not good business !" he said along those lines.

[banjo]

He beat some good solid fighters and he beat some fighters who shouldn't have been in the same ring as him and the two "great" fighters he beat were past there best.

I wouldn't go as far to say he's a coward but he certainly didn't seem to push for certain fights as much as he could have.

calzaghe was past his prime when he faught these fighters too. He didnt dodge any challenges he didnt get any challenges and had good reason to not make certain fights. Roy Jones jr dodged any fighter he could, benn, eubank, colins, calzaghe (until he really needed the fight).

I would bet good money that if lacey had never got in the ring with calzaghe, he would be a world champion now.

Apparently there was a Benn v Jones Jr. bout discussed but the deal was that Benn had to go over to the States so Benn demanded double what Jones Jr. offered him(and rightly so by the way, I wouldn't take a beatdown for peanuts) but they wouldn't so it never happened. Business is what it is and that's how it works, the same reason why Jones Jr. targeted John Ruiz for a "heavyweight title" rather than Lennox Lewis, beat the slow lumbering Ruiz and become "world heavyweight champion" as they call him or face the REAL world heavyweight champion and risk getting carried out of the ring on a stretcher.

[Autobarn]

lacy was shite and we all know that. shieka was outboxing him for christ sakes and look at what he's accomplished since. He was never that good, as Robin Reid rightfully pointed out after he lost to Lacy. Mitchell and Brewer got beaten by Ottke first. Reid himself wasnt that good either and calzaghe aguably lost that one. calzaghe down against mitchell and salem heavily and had a VERY close win over 44 year old B-Hop (4/1 on befair after the 12 round calzaghe was). it's not rocket science to see what prime roy or prime hop would have done to joe.

Well said.

I disagree, sort of. I do recall saying that Lacy was pretty much a brainless thug after seeing him vs Tsypko 1 and Sheika. However, boxing is business, Yanks got behind him, TV money came in, and ppl got interested in super middleweights once more. He was a busy title holder and demonstrated some improvement. Calzaghe v Lacy made for an excellent event/package. Hype is necessary in boxing, to get ppl's hearts beating a bit; it was sort of Calzaghe's version of Holmes-Cooney (though that fight had huge hype due to big white hope & was a bigger event) & set up Joe on the world scene. It can be a good thing to batter someone who APPEARS to be really good.

Sadly Joe only really fulfilled hype vs Kessler. I wish Joe had retired then, as the Joe myth would have been greater.

"You'll miss him now he's go-one." That would have been the case had he not cashed out with scruffy wins over faded legends.

[DEKKER87]

The legend status is nonsense. He may be considered as one of Britains best, but globally, his record falls way way short in what would be required to reach all time great/legend status.

I can`t think of any British fighter, who measures up against the true greats of the sport.

We have never had an Ali, Robinson, Duran, Lopez or even a ODLH :(

Lennox Lewis would come closest to it i reckon.

FACT.

[superpunchout]

Joe Calzaghe is a great fighter.

It's very, very hard for British talent to crack America but he did it in the end after beating the two prominant rivals in his division.

[Finn]

the only reason calzaghe retired is because theres noone in the super middle weight worth fighting. why risk some bum getting a lucky knock out. Kesslers the best out there and calzghes beaten him.

Its a shame there werent or arent two massive money spining respected american champions out there to fight, then im sure he would have put this matter beyond dispute.

personally i would put my money on calzaghe to win at super middle over roy jones jr or any other fighter theres been.

I personally think colins or eubank possibly even benn or watson would have beaten rjj.

[hitman_hatton1]

I personally think colins or eubank possibly even benn or watson would have beaten rjj.

[whiskey]

I personally think colins or eubank possibly even benn or watson would have beaten rjj.

x2

[banjo]

I personally think colins or eubank possibly even benn or watson would have beaten rjj.

x2

We need a smiley which blows it's own brains out for moments like this.

[opticald]

kingfinn, either you know very very little about boxing, or you are terribly biased and can't see it.