Head-To-Head --- Smokin' Joe & The Manassa Mauler?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

For all of those so surprised, I'm questioning Dempsey's ability to hurt Frazier, not saying he couldn't punch or was a bum. It's just a god awful match up for him and one that I give him no chance in. I've been wrong plenty of times before and I've been right more. We will never know.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You give him, "no chance" because you're an idiot, as several members have pointed out in more polite terms.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I was an idiot for taking Holyfield over Tyson, Leonard over Hagler, Pacquaio over Oscar & many more. You don't find Boxing unpredictable? You don't find comparing eras difficult? Someone with a differing opinion of yours is simply an idiot?

I read people demanding Winky would school Tito, I wasn't one of them, and I called them idiots. After the fact things are a lot clearer. If you think there is no shot that Joe Frazier destroys jack Dempsey, you're the idiot. It seems the majority of Dempsey backers are banking on Frazier getting wiped out in two or three rds, yeah that happened constantly. You act like we're talking about Tommy Morrison.

Come on, I've seen you commend posts from me and now I'm retarded because I don't rate a guy with limited garbage film as highly as you do? There are no fighters historically that you don't follow the straight and narrow path with? I don't think highly of Dempsey and I think, at his best, Joe Frazier was a freaking monster. That is really insane? LMAO, get over yourself.

[BoxBuzz]

Pure curiosity...when did anyone Fraziers size give Frazier trouble? I'm not making a case...I just couldn't remember an example. Quarry was his size....and tried to be aggresive and it didn't quite work out. Quarry was very good. No Dempsey granted but very good. Frazier seemed to enjoy the ride.

Same might not be able to be said for Dempsey...Was Tunney bigger? My memory says no, but not certain. How would a Tunney Quarry fight turn out? I'm thinking Tunney would do fine against JQ.

I favor Frazier but don't see anyway to be overly certain. I would bet on Frazier....but I've lost a few bets along the way.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...If you think there is no shot that Joe Frazier destroys jack Dempsey, you're the idiot..." - Saad

I never, ever said that. I said --- you're an idiot if you give Dempsey, "no chance" to win. That is what it takes to make a statement like that --- an idiot.

[dempseyfire]

Pure curiosity...when did anyone Fraziers size give Frazier trouble? .

Ringo Bonavena . . .5'10, 205 lbs.

To say Dempsey has 'no chance' is pretty frikkin' insane. I have no problem with people picking Frazier but Frazier never faced another pressure fighter possessing near the speed, power, and skills of Dempsey. To say he 'blows through Dempsey' b/c people saw the sped-up, hand-cranked Dempsey-Firpo film and conclude Jack sucked is way off the mark.

[yancey]

Frazier without a doubt for me. I feel he was more skilled and could back Jack up, which would be his undoing. Too open for Joe, IMO.

Short, simple, and on the money.

[yancey]

I was an idiot for taking Holyfield over Tyson, Leonard over Hagler, Pacquaio over Oscar & many more. You don't find Boxing unpredictable? You don't find comparing eras difficult? Someone with a differing opinion of yours is simply an idiot?

I read people demanding Winky would school Tito, I wasn't one of them, and I called them idiots. After the fact things are a lot clearer. If you think there is no shot that Joe Frazier destroys jack Dempsey, you're the idiot. It seems the majority of Dempsey backers are banking on Frazier getting wiped out in two or three rds, yeah that happened constantly. You act like we're talking about Tommy Morrison.

Come on, I've seen you commend posts from me and now I'm retarded because I don't rate a guy with limited garbage film as highly as you do? There are no fighters historically that you don't follow the straight and narrow path with? I don't think highly of Dempsey and I think, at his best, Joe Frazier was a freaking monster. That is really insane? LMAO, get over yourself.

Well, if you are an idiot, then you're my kind of idiot.


p.s. You're not an idiot.

[BoxBuzz]

Pure curiosity...when did anyone Fraziers size give Frazier trouble? .

Ringo Bonavena . . .5'10, 205 lbs.

To say Dempsey has 'no chance' is pretty frikkin' insane. I have no problem with people picking Frazier but Frazier never faced another pressure fighter possessing near the speed, power, and skills of Dempsey. To say he 'blows through Dempsey' b/c people saw the sped-up, hand-cranked Dempsey-Firpo film and conclude Jack sucked is way off the mark.

He hung in there well with Frazier true. Best example I would say.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ya'll musta forgot and yes I am drunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ3aUmSBSbY

[yancey]

Ya'll musta forgot and yes I am drunk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ3aUmSBSbY

At 1:29 on the youtube video, Frazier had Ali out on his feet with another hook. If only he had followed up!, as Dunphy pointed out. There would have been plenty of time for the three-knockdown rule to come into the picture had Joe put Ali down again right there.

I forget which round, maybe the 11th, that I think was a legitimate knockdown of Ali. Mercante called it a slip, but I really think it was a delayed reaction knockdown off a Frazier left.

[Goodnight, Irene]

No way was Ali legitimately down in the eleventh. I have only heard Gran claim that on this board. Don't get me wrong --- there's no shortage of people here who'll tell you what an Ali-hater I apparently am, I mean, I'd like to believe, but Frazier had him down just the once. I didn't think that was even contestable.

I know the hook you're talking about in the fifteenth though. The one which should've dropped Ali. How the ex-champion stayed on his feet from that, I still can't comprehend. Frazier simply looked too exhausted to follow it. By all rights, it might've killed a lesser man.

[Robinson]

"After some early fire works, Dempsey is down and out on the canvas.
The referee is now removing his mouth piece as Frazier and his people
celebrate it.

Dempsey has been stopped here in the fifth round.

Frazier wins it by KO>"

[Collins2000]

"After some early fire works, Dempsey is down and out on the canvas.
The referee is now removing his mouth piece as Frazier and his people
celebrate it.

Dempsey has been stopped here in the fifth round.

Frazier wins it by KO>"

A possibility I suppose.

But I can't forget average Ringo sending Joe sprawling or Big George having him doing an Al Jolson impersonation.

Or even limp-wristed faggot non-punching fraud Ali ( ) having Joe dazed and confused early in the 2nd fight.

[Robinson]

Jim Flynn....:)

[Collins2000]

Jim Flynn....:)

Of course. That's why I said it was a possibility.

[Robinson]

Of course I know it was considered a work etc etc...
But I also find the Firpo fight to be terrible to watch...
terrible...

[Collins2000]

Have you factored in the 7th round KO over Jack Johnson in the bout on the secret Canadian circuit?

[Robinson]

I know a guy that knows a guy that found an old reel of that bout amongst
a pile of Toby Hooper snuff flicks.

I am waiting to see it. I think from what I can ascertain is that the film
was lost in New Guinea for some time....

I shall upload it to YT soon and then we can all make light of it, and perhaps
this could convince me of Dempsey's number 1 status.

[I Feel Fine]

Disliking Dempsey because you do not find his fights aesthetically pleasing and dislike some of his career moves which were mostly the choice of his manager and not of Dempsey himself is one thing, but suggesting that such an all time great puncher would not have at least a very good chance at a slow starter like Frazier is absolute madness.
Yancey... in regards to the notion that Mercante was wrong to call that a slip where Ali very clearly trips by a combination of his back bouncing off the ropes and his leg very visibly tripping over Frazier's leg (the video is on youtube of round 11 if anyone cares to see it) and in regards to the notion that Frazier could have actually managed a three knock down round against Ali, I can only ask, ala Barney Frank, "On what planet do you spend most of your time?"

[Robinson]

I do not dislike Dempsey. I have never said that. I respect the man
and think he was the best of his era.

I doubt a peak Dempsey would fight Frazier any how. Frazier is
not of the right skin colour to get a fight with Dempsey.

[I Feel Fine]

I am afraid I will have to give the routine answer: "different era." Even Johnson and Louis preferred white challengers for the most part, with only rare exceptions. Dempsey in Frazier's era likely would have fought the best available, including the African Americans, and he would have a good chance at beating a Frazier or a Norton or a Patterson. I picked Frazier, and I stick to that, but I don't see the logic in not giving Dempsey a good chance. Styles make fights, and though Ali was a better fighter, Dempsey might very well beat those opponents much more easily than Ali did. Or maybe not. We'll never know.

[Robinson]

IFF
I appreciate that it was a "different era". A great era in fact, where the
Champion could sit on a title for say ... 3 years and never defend it, or
a draw a colour line....and when the fundamentals were a developing
thing.

An era I am told time and time again that is better than the confused
"obesse" ABC dominated era of boxing.

A different era indeed it was.

[Robinson]

I think Marciano vs Frazier would be an awesome, epic battle.
I think Marciano vs Dempsey would also be a good, entertaining
duel.
I just see Frazier stopping Dempsey in the middle.
As far as styles going...as you mentioned, they make fights.
I think I keep reading that some where, so It must be a truth.

[yancey]

Disliking Dempsey because you do not find his fights aesthetically pleasing and dislike some of his career moves which were mostly the choice of his manager and not of Dempsey himself is one thing, but suggesting that such an all time great puncher would not have at least a very good chance at a slow starter like Frazier is absolute madness.
Yancey... in regards to the notion that Mercante was wrong to call that a slip where Ali very clearly trips by a combination of his back bouncing off the ropes and his leg very visibly tripping over Frazier's leg (the video is on youtube of round 11 if anyone cares to see it) and in regards to the notion that Frazier could have actually managed a three knock down round against Ali, I can only ask, ala Barney Frank, "On what planet do you spend most of your time?"

Not a surprise that Frank would be your role model.

Listen, simpleton, if Frazier had followed up and Ali goes down for the 2nd time in round 15 with 1:28 left in the round, the three-knockdown rule most definitely comes into play.