ALL-TIME GREATEST PERFORMANCES

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 06 Oct 2004, 11:20

Hello folks!!!

In my point of view, to me these were the GREATEST PERFORMANCES in the ring of all time in WHICH A FIGHTER DOMINATED COMPLETELY his opponent. The loser, of course, has to be a WORLD CLASS OPPONENT.

1. Pernell Whitaker D12 Julio Cesar Chavez: Sep 10, 1993--San Antonio, TX. The Norfolk master tamed the UNBEATEN "Lion of Culiacan", but not even the judges cannot take away this masterful performance. Strictly WORLD CLASS!!!

2. Muhammad Ali KO3 Cleveland Williams: Nov 14, 1966--Houston, TX. The birth of the "Ali Shuffle" come to play and introduced for the first time by the Greatest. He had it all against a top KO artist and contender. That he (Cleveland Williams) had a bullet in his spine??? My ass!!! even if it did not have that bullet, like some people claim , cannot take away the skills and speed of this dancing master. What a KO!!!

3. Julio Cesar Chavez KO11 Edwin "Chapo" Rosario: Nov 11, 1987--Las vegas, NV. Julio goes up in weight and COMPLETELY DOMINATES the KO artist Rosario from the beginning bell. Chavez came like a whirlwind and put Rosario's face that his mama or daddy could not recognized him.

4. George Foreman TKO2 Joe Frazier: Jan 22, 1973-Kingston, Jamaica. Down goes Frazier!!! Down goes Frazier!!!, Down goes Frazier!!! Never seen the great Frazier been DOMINATED in any kind of way. One of the greatest displays OF PUNCHING POWER that I have ever seen!!!

5. Joe Louis KO1 Max Scmelling: June 22, 1938---New York City, NY. The Whole world was listening to the radio as America was in to be close to WWII. I saw all kinds of punches in this fight: Uppercuts, body shots, right crosses, left hooks, the whole nine!!! The great German had to SURRENDER!!!

6. Roberto Duran KO12 Esteban DeJesus: Jan 21, 1978---Las Vegas, NV. On this Saturday afternoon, Duran did the unthikable, comig to this fight in a different approach. On the first 2 bouts between the two, Duran was floored in the first round. This time, Duran takes his time and counterpunches beautifully, making the Puerto Rican MISS IN A LOT OF OCCASSIONS. Duran, always known by his AGRESSIVENESS, SHOWED THE WORLD THAT HE WAS THE BEST OF THE 70s DECADE POUND PER POUND and was a complete fighter. He gave DeJesus an excellent uppercut to the jaw, and DeJesus crawled like a 9 month old baby.

7. Salvador Sanchez TKO8 Wilfredo Gomez: June 21, 1981---Las Vegas, NV. Wilfredo "Bazooka" Gomez from Puerto Rico got OUTBOMBED, OUTBOXED, AND OUTSMARTED by this Mexican phenom. He dominated Gomez so easily that put my mouth open in disbelief!!! It was a complete and total DOMINATION!!!

8. Bernard Hopkins TKO12 Felix "Tito" Trinidad: Sep 29, 2001---New York City. Probably so far the MOST DOMINATING PERFORMANCE OF THIS DECADE, Hopkins comes out from OBSCURITY from the boxing fans and gave Tito a TOTAL HUMILIATION AND ANHILIATION. First, he throws the Puerto Rican flag twice in New York and in Puerto Rico, and then gave Tito in front of his fans THE BEATING AND ASS KICKING OF HIS LIFE by outsmarting and outboxing the Puerto Rican great.

9. Evander Holyfield TKO11 Mike Tyson: Nov 9, 1996---Las Vegas, NV. Holyfield, 34, thought to be washed up by many INCLUDING MYSELF, gave the performance of his life by outgunning and manhandling "Iron Mike" like no one has ever done before. Many people has outboxed Tyson in his career, but to see Tyson against the ropes??? Holyfield was much stronger??? much faster??? and in better condition??? Won almost 8 of the 12 rounds in my view and also floored Tyson with a SHOT TO THE BELLY.

10. Thomas Hearns KO2 Pipino Cuevas: Aug 2, 1980---Detroit, MI. In a battle of KO artists IN THEIR RESPECTIVE PRIMES, Cuevas was TOTALLY DOMINATED by a fighter that was much taller, much faster, with better boxing skills and ring generalship and probably hit harder. It LOKED LIKE IT WAS A TOTAL MISMATCH. Cuevas did not land a punch in no type of form. I said to myself about Hearns: who is this guy??? where does he come from??? Wow!!! what a FIGHTER!!! Hearns crushed the rocked chin Cuevas in 2 rounds in probably the BEST KO THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN IN MY LIFE.

To me these were the greatest performances of complete domination of all-time that I have ever seen on film. There were other performances like Duran-Buchanan, Ali-Folley, Gomez-Zarate, Trinidad-Joppy, Holmes-Cooney, Tyson-Berbick, Hearns-Duran, Fenech-Nelson and Ray Leonard-Boy Green.

Bladder · Post by **Bladder** » 06 Oct 2004, 11:33

Holmes v Ali

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 06 Oct 2004, 11:35

Frazier in winning the '71 fight with Ali

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 06 Oct 2004, 12:49

Great list

Zarate in The Battle Of The Z Boys was pretty awesome, and it was a major unification fight in reality ( though the alaphabet boys never let that get in their way ).

Pryor v Arguello 1

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 06 Oct 2004, 16:04

Yeah, it is a great list. I would swap Whitaker-Chavez for Pep-Saddler II.
Pep dredged up one last great effort and gave the greatest boxing display of his time.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 06 Oct 2004, 19:47

bollocks wrote:Joe Louis - Billy Conn. Conn apparently dominated Louis with ease. Right up until Conn decided to try to KO Joe and was KO'd for his troubles. Put this one on the 'almost' list along with Bomber Graham - Julian Jackson

Conn was not dominating Louis . . .he was winning by 2 rounds. The fight was more competetive then popular lore has it . . .

To me, Joe Frazier's performance against Ali was the best performance I've ever seen from a man in the ring. The guy was not human that night, he was a machine. I'll also include:

Marciano against Walcott-Also an unstoppable force. The punishment this guy took and he kept coming back with HARD punches, including the terrific knockout blow.

Marvin Hagler vs John Mugabi-Both guys showed tremondous heart, but Hagler just wouldn't relent,against a very determined, very hard hitter with skills.

Foreman vs Lyle-Two trains collided for that fight and Foreman had the will and heart to overcome a game Ron, who hit like a mack truck . . .

Elmer Salsa-don't denigrate Cleveland Williams, Yes, he had a bullet and was physically never the same after getting shot by a Texas state trooper. A prime Ali would beat any Williams, but a prime Williams would've given him a very tough fight and would've not suffered the embarassment of their 1966 fight . . . .

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 07 Oct 2004, 02:01

dempseyfire once again corrects a common but false bit of misinformation.....conn took a bad beating to the body in the early rounds, then came on in the later ones...but he would have had to do more than "stay on his feet" after the tweflth to win the decision. i've looked at that fight many times...and conn was wining those rounds in pretty much the same way he came out for the thirteenth...by leaping in , thowing punches in bunches and getting back out. he didn't alter his style as much as legend says in the thirteenth. personally i think louis just caught up with him....conn's legs were feeling the effect by that time. a great performance by billy...but not the one sided fight that legend has made it. fun to look at...louis was the calmest guy in the arena. his trainer, manny seaman was noted for having a cigar in his mouth practically all the time. when louis went to his corner after kayoing billy, he said "how many seegars did you swallow, manny?"

belongs in the great performance list though...great performances by BOTH fitghters.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 07 Oct 2004, 02:25

dempseyfire wrote: Conn was not dominating Louis . . .he was winning by 2 rounds. The fight was more competetive then popular lore has it . . .

Actually, I thought that one judge had it dead even, and another had Conn up by one...it wouldn't have been a UD through 12 if I'm not mistaken...

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Oct 2004, 12:36

wouter wrote:Frazier in winning the '71 fight with Ali

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ONE. That Ali was RUSTY coming out of retirement and that he UNDERESTIMATED the great Joe Frazier WAS A THEORY OF FULL OF BULLSHIT AND BALONEY . Frazier looked terrific so did Ali.

FRAZIER KICKED ALI ASS, NO EXCUSES!!!

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 07 Oct 2004, 12:40

dempseyfire wrote:
bollocks wrote:
To me, Joe Frazier's performance against Ali was the best performance I've ever seen from a man in the ring. The guy was not human that night, he was a machine.

I agree with you on this one. Nobody, probably, NOBODY, WOULD HAVE BEATEN FRAZIER THAT NIGHT.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 07 Oct 2004, 20:27

the judging in the louis/conn fight is as follows:

one judge....6-6
other judge...7-4-1- conn
referee... 7-5 conn

don't have the names pf the judges...i think...not positive...rthe referee was eddie josephs.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 07 Oct 2004, 22:11

dempseyfire wrote: To me, Joe Frazier's performance against Ali was the best performance I've ever seen from a man in the ring.

Yes, it was Frazier's finest hour...and he never fought at that level again, the closest he came was in the Ali rematches that he lost...

...also, styles make fights...Ali (minus his old leg speed) vs. Frazier were made for each other...I wonder how the George Foreman of '73 would have fared against the 3/8/71 Frazier? Give Frazier credit though, in the biggest, most anticipated, most hyped fight of all time...he was the big winner...

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 07 Oct 2004, 22:26

elmersalsa wrote:
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ONE. That Ali was RUSTY coming out of retirement and that he UNDERESTIMATED the great Joe Frazier WAS A THEORY OF FULL OF BULLSHIT AND BALONEY .

So then, you think that the 'Cleveland Williams' Ali (that you mentioned) was the same style fighter as the 'Frazier I' Ali? I sure don't think so...the earlier version could move on his feet in perpetual motion...the later version had to stand and fight flat footed because he no longer could move on his feet like that (without becoming fatigued and vulnerable)...an enormous difference in styles...

Better yet, let me ask you this...

If you managed an all time great heavyweight from the past...and you wanted him to win...and he was facing Ali...would you want him to face the Ali of the '60s who could win fights with his foot movement, or would you want him to face the Ali of the '70s...who fought flat footed and got hit waaaaaaaaaaaaay more often...it's a no brainer, isn't it?????

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 07 Oct 2004, 23:59

Sweet Scientist wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ONE. That Ali was RUSTY coming out of retirement and that he UNDERESTIMATED the great Joe Frazier WAS A THEORY OF FULL OF BULLSHIT AND BALONEY .

So then, you think that the 'Cleveland Williams' Ali (that you mentioned) was the same style fighter as the 'Frazier I' Ali? I sure don't think so...the earlier version could move on his feet in perpetual motion...the later version had to stand and fight flat footed because he no longer could move on his feet like that (without becoming fatigued and vulnerable)...an enormous difference in styles...

Better yet, let me ask you this...

If you managed an all time great heavyweight from the past...and you wanted him to win...and he was facing Ali...would you want him to face the Ali of the '60s who could win fights with his foot movement, or would you want him to face the Ali of the '70s...who fought flat footed and got hit waaaaaaaaaaaaay more often...it's a no brainer, isn't it?????

SS, you are simplyfing a bit. The Ali of 1971 was not the ALi of 1975. He was surely a pinch (and really a pinch) slower on his feet and I would say very slightly past his prime but he was not near a completly different fighter-he looked just as fleetfooted in several fights in the early 70s, namely the Quarry fights and against Ellis. Even in the 1st round against Wepner (later on in '75), in an otherwise ugly fight, he showed he still had very impressive footspeed. The Ali of the 60s did not dance on his toes for a whole fight-watch the Patterson or CHuvalo fights and see ALi standing flat-footed and even (against Chuvalo) rope a doping for the first time.

Against Frazier, Ali knew Frazier was vulnerable in the early rounds, and made a tactical decision early on to sit on his shots and try to trouble Joe early. Trouble was, Joe took everything Ali threw and came back stronger and by round 4 was in complete control of the fight. When Ali did try to dance later on, Frazier's ability to cut off the ring and body shots, as well as sheer stamina, made that manouvre rather hard. I'll concded that Ali was slightly past his best, but I don't like it when people say Frazier against a 'prime' ALi would be a completly different fight, b/c not only was Ali very close to top form for that fight, but Frazier won the fight so handily it should put to rest that notion.
Love Ali, but Frazier style-wise was kryptonite for him.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 08 Oct 2004, 17:01

Perhaps I did 'oversimplify' a bit...but I still maintain that Ali was (atleast to me) noticably slower after he came back from exile...In the Quarry fight that only lasted 3 rounds, you couldn't get a good 'fix' on Ali's skills...it didn't last long enough but it was clear that his timing was not what it once was...In the Bonavena fight it became evident to me that Ali was now a different fighter...no more perputual motion, getting hit more often...and, quite frankly to a big Ali fan in the '60s...a great disappointment...and Bonavena was no Joe Frazier...

I think the 1st Frazier fight was far more exciting than it would have been had it taken place a couple years earlier without Ali in exile, but that's just my opinion...perhaps the difference in a close fight?

Ali could still move on his feet after the exile, but he couldn't maintain it against a 1st tier opponent, and it takes one hell of a lot of energy to fight like that against anyone...Ali needed to take more 'breaks' after exile (i.e. laying on the ropes, playing that 'pitter patter' game he played against Frazier losing atleast 3 rounds in the process)...he just didn't have the same stamina...but what the hell...almost all athletes have more stamina in their early to mid 20s as opposed to early 30's...It's also my opinion that his skills 'atrophied' during the 3 1/2 years off...and it took a good 2 years to get back to where he was...except that by then, he's now 30-31 and slower by most expert's standards...(and it doesn't have to be a lot slower to make a difference against a Joe Frazier)

Recently while watching the Jones - Johnson fight, Larry Merchant made a good point...which was (in reference to Jones) 'when a great fast fighter starts to slow down a little, it can make for some very exciting fights.'

Some of Ali's post exile fights were exciting because (atleast partially) he slowed down a little, especially concerning footwork, the one thing that separated him from any other heavyweight I've ever seen...It's the one thing that places him in the top 3...take that away and he falls lower in all time ranking, in my opinion...

...and again, if you are a manager of an all time great heavyweight that had to face Ali, which Ali would you want to face to have the best chance to win...pre-exile Ali...or post exile Ali...your best chance would be against the Ali that had slowed down a bit, don't you think???

...one of Ali's handlers used to say, "The only guy that can beat Ali is Cassius Clay"...it was just another 'trash talk' line...but it had a shred of truth to it, if you think about it...it was like they made a sub-conscience admission that he slowed down (something they never openly admitted)

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Oct 2004, 17:15

Sweet Scientist wrote:Perhaps I did 'oversimplify' a bit...but I still maintain that Ali was (atleast to me) noticably slower after he came back from exile...In the Quarry fight that only lasted 3 rounds, you couldn't get a good 'fix' on Ali's skills...it didn't last long enough but it was clear that his timing was not what it once was...In the Bonavena fight it became evident to me that Ali was now a different fighter...no more perputual motion, getting hit more often...and, quite frankly to a big Ali fan in the '60s...a great disappointment...and Bonavena was no Joe Frazier...

I think the 1st Frazier fight was far more exciting than it would have been had it taken place a couple years earlier without Ali in exile, but that's just my opinion...perhaps the difference in a close fight?

Ali could still move on his feet after the exile, but he couldn't maintain it against a 1st tier opponent, and it takes one hell of a lot of energy to fight like that against anyone...Ali needed to take more 'breaks' after exile (i.e. laying on the ropes, playing that 'pitter patter' game he played against Frazier losing atleast 3 rounds in the process)...he just didn't have the same stamina...but what the hell...almost all athletes have more stamina in their early to mid 20s as opposed to early 30's...It's also my opinion that his skills 'atrophied' during the 3 1/2 years off...and it took a good 2 years to get back to where he was...except that by then, he's now 30-31 and slower by most expert's standards...(and it doesn't have to be a lot slower to make a difference against a Joe Frazier)

Recently while watching the Jones - Johnson fight, Larry Merchant made a good point...which was (in reference to Jones) 'when a great fast fighter starts to slow down a little, it can make for some very exciting fights.'

Some of Ali's post exile fights were exciting because (atleast partially) he slowed down a little, especially concerning footwork, the one thing that separated him from any other heavyweight I've ever seen...It's the one thing that places him in the top 3...take that away and he falls lower in all time ranking, in my opinion...

...and again, if you are a manager of an all time great heavyweight that had to face Ali, which Ali would you want to face to have the best chance to win...pre-exile Ali...or post exile Ali...your best chance would be against the Ali that had slowed down a bit, don't you think???

...one of Ali's handlers used to say, "The only guy that can beat Ali is Cassius Clay"...it was just another 'trash talk' line...but it had a shred of truth to it, if you think about it...it was like they made a sub-conscience admission that he slowed down (something they never openly admitted)

Of course he had slowed down a bit, but remember that the calibre of opponents Ali fought in the early 70s was far superior to the guys he was fighting in the mid-late 60s (Bonavena, Frazier, Ellis, Norton, Foreman compared to a Patterson with a horrible back problem, Chuvalo, old Folley, Terrell). Adding to the layoff, this was surely a major factor of why Ali didn't look as 'invincible' as he did earlier . . . .

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 08 Oct 2004, 18:11

Frazier, Foreman & Norton were the big difference in opponents from the '60s to the '70s...and if he'd prepared better for Norton, there may never have been a 2nd & 3rd fight...the others could all be interchangable...Terrell was good enough to beat all of the other early '70s fighters Ali faced, might have been good enough to beat Norton...might have been good (or lucky) enough to upset George if he could extend him like Jimmy Young did...There were some '60s opponents of Ali that were half decent...Liston, southpaw Mildenberger, Terrell...

I still maintain the big difference was speed (foot speed)....

It's easier to fight a guy who stands in front of you as opposed to a guy who makes you chase him while he throws jabs & countering combinations (much faster than you're used to...)

Rocky Balboa · Post by **Rocky Balboa** » 09 Oct 2004, 10:57

In my opinion, the greatest performance by a fighter ever, was Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling 2, 1938. Why? Just before the World War 2 had started, Adolf Hitler was in power, America vs Germany, you know, that sort of thing!

Pressure was on both fighters, but imagine the pressure on Louis? Fighting in his own country, imagine had Louis lost the second fight! What would have been the aftermath of Louis losing? For that fight, Joe Louis was in his absolute prime, and if had not been for the war, he may have recorded better performances than this one, but as it stands, I believe he was at his peak for this one!

The way he KO'D Max was brutal, but brilliant in the same way. He went about his business calmly and collected, but at the same time was so ferocious, powerful, strong, etc. He was not wild in his attack - it was calculsated, cold and stunning!

In my opinion, the Louis of this fight would have beaten any other heavyweight in history, in their prime. I am allowed to have an opinion, and I am sure there are others who feel the same and others who feel totally differently!

Another performace I always like to mention is Joe Frazier vs Muahammad Ali, March 71'. Frazier was magnificent that night, and although people will always say Ali holds 2 wins over Frazier's 1 victory, Frazier won the bout when both fighters were nearest their primes and both fighters were in better shape for this fight, than for the other two!

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 10 Oct 2004, 07:16

Rocky Balboa wrote:In my opinion, the greatest performance by a fighter ever, was Joe Louis vs Max Schmeling 2, 1938.

Maxies performance in their first fight in '36 wasn't so bad too !

Billybob · Post by **Billybob** » 13 Oct 2004, 02:41

...one of Ali's handlers used to say, "The only guy that can beat Ali is Cassius Clay"...it was just another 'trash talk' line...but it had a shred of truth to it, if you think about it...it was like they made a sub-conscience admission that he slowed down (something they never openly admitted)

I personally like ali when he came back from his exile better than before it. I believe that even though his speed and reflexes slowed down, he fought better competition. Along with this, I believe this is where ali really proved his greatness. He was more experienced, knew how to conserve energy & steal rounds against opponents. Ali's alley as they used to call it, was where his biggest asset-his heart- always overcame the opposition. Ali seemed to get stronger and pick up the urgency in these rounds when his opponents would begin to wear down physically as well as mentally.

I believe that the rumble in the jungle was the best performance by any boxer, just because of the odds of what he was up against. Foreman was believed to be an unstoppable monster who would crush ali in that fight, but ali's will to win and tenacity pulled through which is what makes him the "greatest".

He was able to adapt his style and beat top notch opponents even when he was past his prime, which to me, is the real sign of greatness. Roy Jones, take note!

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 19 Oct 2004, 18:50

Billybob wrote: I personally like ali when he came back from his exile better than before it. I believe that even though his speed and reflexes slowed down, he fought better competition. Along with this, I believe this is where ali really proved his greatness. He was more experienced, knew how to conserve energy & steal rounds against opponents.

Makes little sense to me...Generally, with the exception of Foreman & Frazier, the competiton was very similar in the '60s...and...he didn't have to steal rounds in the '60s...he had the reflexes to avoid most punches in the '60s...in the '70s, he was slowly pulverized into the Parkinson's Syndrome condition he lives with today...he proved he could take a punch in the '70s, but the majority of his post layoff fights were boring...Take away the Foreman fight, the 3 Frazier fights...and what's left that really demonstrates greatness in the '70s? And don't forget about all those controversial decisions in 1976-77...Ali was great because of the '60s...by the '70s, he was slipping...Sure he adapted to win in the '70s...but it just wasn't the same as winning fights with quick feet & reflexes like the '60s...and he took waaaaaaay too many punches in the '70s...punches that would have missed or not landed solidly in the '60s...he didn't fight all 3 minutes of a round in the '70s...he laid on the ropes in the '70s...Geez...there's just no comparison!!!