Joe Calzaghe Fans

[TigerMoth]

I am posting this under current scene because like Money Mayweather and all the other elite fighters who retired while they still had something left in the tank, he will be back.

Many seem to think Joe avoided top competition and has a record built by defeating either unskilled opponents or old, over-the-hill opponents.

Although Hopkins was competitive and RJJ was not, I put each into the old or over-the-hill category.

So, please identify any opponent Joe fought who was highly skilled and in their prime. Hopefully, the fight will be available on youtube or some other internet source so that I can watch it.

Yesterday, I watched Joe vs Chris Eubank. My observation was he definitely threw slapping "punches", nothing crisp and straight. I was also surprised to see what a dirty fighter he was - wrapped his left arm around Chris's head and pounded away with his right. Talk about holding and hitting - I couldn't believe the ref didn't take points away. And, of course, Chris was just coming back from retirement.

So, please identify one instance in which Joe fought an excellent opponent in his prime and demonstrated any reason to think he was (is) a Hall of Fame fighter.

[NazNaci1]

Some JC fans would point to Lacy and Kessler ofc.

http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?hu ... &cat=boxer

Ritchie Woodhalll was a good fight to be fair and Robin Reid and B-Hop beat him imo, but didnt get the decision.

Had alot of posts on this topic already tbh. But you get a mixed reaction I suspect.

IMO not an all time great fighter and definately not the greatest fighter ever to come of out Britain.

[bjermaine]

my feelings on calzaghe have been well documented on these boards but one thing joe isn't is stupid. his legacy is all based on his undefeated record as a pro and there's no chance he will ruin that.

[Lackeos]

Kessler and Hopkins were his greatest opponents, and they were both great opponents. I'm still disappointed that Hopkins couldn't beat Calzaghe, but that just shows how good Calzaghe is. Joe isn't that skilled at all, really, but he always does what it takes to win, and nobody has ever really roughed him up too bad.

[TigerMoth]

Well, apprently there aren't any Joe C fans who can point to a significant win against a world class opponent who wasn't washed up, over-the-hill.

Hopkins was 43 years old when he fought Joe C and the result was a split decision. Hardly a HOF achievement.

Kessler, 38 of his 41 wins have occured in Denmark - not exactly the hotbed of boxings finest. Put differently, does anyone think Kessler is at least a potential HOF fighter?

So, who has Joe C beaten?

[zslayton]

The upcoming supermiddleweigh tournament will tell us a lot about Kessler as long as he goes thru with it and fights each bout.

RJJ is a shell of what he was at his peak, no matter how many times he says he is back. The RJJ Joe beat is 1/2 of what he was in his prime, maybe less. However, he is still, even at 1/2 of what he was, better than most in the division so I give Joe credit for beating him.

I thought the fight with BHop was a draw and to be honest I don't think BHop beat very many top level fighters over the course of his title reign either although I feel his record has better names on it than Joes, or at least guys that were closer to their prime than Joes.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Many seem to think Joe avoided top competition and has a record built by defeating either unskilled opponents or old, over-the-hill opponents.

Although Hopkins was competitive and RJJ was not, I put each into the old or over-the-hill category.

So, please identify any opponent Joe fought who was highly skilled and in their prime. Hopefully, the fight will be available on youtube or some other internet source so that I can watch it.

Yesterday, I watched Joe vs Chris Eubank. My observation was he definitely threw slapping "punches", nothing crisp and straight. I was also surprised to see what a dirty fighter he was - wrapped his left arm around Chris's head and pounded away with his right. Talk about holding and hitting - I couldn't believe the ref didn't take points away. And, of course, Chris was just coming back from retirement.

So, please identify one instance in which Joe fought an excellent opponent in his prime and demonstrated any reason to think he was (is) a Hall of Fame fighter.

- Looks like you swallowed your own bait here and surfaced for a look at yourself reeling yourself in.

Many are stupid, and then you get into the insipid elite, however, Joe also has the many fans, including those who know boxing and can rate him without hysteria of "wrapped his left arm around Chris's head and pounded away with his right." One might question how Joe could "pound away" when "he definitely threw slapping "punches", nothing crisp and straight" if anyone took your observations seriously.

No fighter save Kessler seriously challenged him in the ring, though it's safe to say that Joe was seriously buzzed with the Mitchell and Roy KDs that could've easily spell disaster for him had they been able to follow up very quickly. Mr. Pops and Reid are often cited, but they came to spoil, not win, and spoil and stink up the ring they did, just the kind of bait you like. Noteworthy that Joe exposed the dog in Mr. Pops who could've been DQed for quitting. Joe slapped him down, he did.

Mr. Pops was Joe's natural era rival, turning pro as a LH before slimming down to his touted middle record, but Joe had Mr. Popkins ducking him as was proven in a court of law where Mr. Pops paid his promoter at the time, Dibella, a 2 mil settlement for backing out of the Roy rematch and Joe superfight circa 2002-3.

Lacy was very highly touted and probably his best masterclass performance, however he never got due credit for his Veit wins, Veit being undefeated EBU champ in the first match and still dominant EBU champ in the rematch. Veit was a huge physical speciman and a hell of a lot better than the 3 Spanish EBU Amigo heavy champs Mr. Larry padded his 20 title wins out with as a point of record comparison. Mr. Larry never comprehensively beat as in showed any class over a good prime heavy challenger. He won the Cooney fight only because Cooney's form and stamina self imploded not dissimilar to the way Big George imploded against Ali. The problem being Ali has the all time highlight KO reel to show, whereas poor Mr. Larry has nutin' but bitter memories of taking short money against Cooney and having to watch him take the champions' traditional last ringwalk and introduction before melting into the ropes.

Mr. Pop's touted wins are Tito, Oscar, Tarver, Pavlik, and Wright, but is there any serious consideration any of those fighters at the time Mr. Pops fought them would be a bother to Joe? Sure, joe's era not the super strong supermid era that has exploded with the Super 6 tourney of today, but look who the fav is to win the Super Six, Mssrs. Kessler, of course. The only natural challengers Joe couldn't get any interest from were LH champs Jones and DM, but they couldn't even fight each other, so boxing politics and finances make some fights impossible to make and Joe was small fry financially back then. He eventually got his revenge on Roy, so legacy secured. Joe joins Rocky, Ricardo Lopez, Jimmy Barry, and a few other HOFers who retire undefeated in somewhat weak eras.

He'll be able to live with himself quite fine in that company.

[NazNaci1]

JC wanted no part of RJJ during his prime. This even after, his promoter, FW, admtted that JC struggled with the weight @ Super Middle for 10 yrs. Additionally JC was often quoted in saying that RJJ was the best fighter of his Era.

Add the usual FW spin and rubbish that he tried to make this or that match but people are talking, 'telephone numbers' = Offer something desulory, its rejected, run to his fighter and media and say 'See I did try to make this match but they dont want to know'. Thus preserving the 'Golden Goose' and ofc the £££'s.

Yes JC fought Kessler and Lacy but did so on his terms against somewhat (at that time) unproven fighters. Known fighters such as Taylor, RJJ etc...were not ever seriously considered, despite what rubbish was spouted at the time.

Robin Reid was never ever allowed to be considered for a re-match after that scare (in which I believe he won, as do some others).

Good management, for sure but keeping the '0' doesnt mean your an all-time great. A world of difference between say Rocky Marciano's '0' and JC's '0'. A win against a washed up RJJ (compared to what he was) and a contentious win over B-Hop do not qualify for all time greatness, neither does being unbeaten.

Sven Ottke beat some decent names and retired undefeated. IMO he has just as right to call himself an HOF as JC.

PS I am not a JC hater, as I do rate him as fighter but not as highly as some.

[TigerMoth]

Ever consider a career as a politician? Extremely tough to wade through all the BS and determine who you think Joe fought who was an excellent fighter who wasn't old or over-the-hill. But, my best guess is your answer was Kessler who has yet to prove he is an excellent fighter.

Yes?

[NazNaci1]

Yeah sorry got carried away there. just an opinion mate :)

Youtube Joe Calzaghe and make up your own mind.

[dempseyfire]

Calzaghe did all one can ask of a modern fighter. He never lost, beat the other top guys in the division in their prime (Mitchell, Lacy, and Kessler) beat two ATGs (Roy, Hopkins) both past their best but Hopkins was and is still a top 5 PFP fighter, so that is no Ali-Archie Moore or Tyson-Holmes comparison there.

To claim Kessler 'hasn't proved' he's an excellent fighter is utter BS.

[I Feel Fine]

His win over Hopkins (assuming you believe it was a win, which many don't) was good in the sense that Hopkins is still a top fighter. But with Calzaghe's seven year age advantage and his having won only a close SD, we did get to see just how much better Hopkins is. Hopkins went in saying that Calzaghe is a champion but "I'm a legend" and I think that was proven. If the situation was reversed and a 36 year old Hopkins was in with a 43 year old Calzaghe, Calzaghe would have had a nice long hospital visit after the fight.
Tarver and Johnson beat a younger Jones much more handedly.
Beating Kessler was good. Based on accomplishments, Calzaghe was the best Super Middleweight champion of all time (though prime Jones would have beaten him there, probably others too.)

[NazNaci1]

Calzaghe did all one can ask of a modern fighter. He never lost, beat the other top guys in the division in their prime (Mitchell, Lacy, and Kessler) beat two ATGs (Roy, Hopkins) both past their best but Hopkins was and is still a top 5 PFP fighter, so that is no Ali-Archie Moore or Tyson-Holmes comparison there.

To claim Kessler 'hasn't proved' he's an excellent fighter is utter BS.

You obviously have your own opinion and it varies greatly with mine.

[TigerMoth]

Well, I wish Joe C would log on and say what world class opponent he has beaten who wasn't old or over-the-hill.

Still don't see any Joe C fans with any claims that he was a HOF fighter. The answer to "who has he beaten who is a world class fighter who wasn't old or over-the-hill, seems to be BHOP and Kessler. The fact that BHOP was 43 (old) is discounted by the fact that he is still a top P4P fighter. So, sorry Joe C fans, BHOP is old, 43, the fact that he performs as well as he does is to his credit, not to Joe C's credit - in other words, achieving a split decision over a 43 year old fighter can not enhance your career achievements. Maybe, destroying BHOP would have been somewhat of an achievement (still, 43 years old) but, a split decison - is this the best Joe C can claim as an accomplishment?

Of course the other "big win" for Joe C is Kessler. Even if Kessler was considered a potential HOF fighter, having one win against one potential HOF fighter does not make Joe C a HOF fighter.

Joe C fans, please make the case that he wasn't just a slapper, a dirty fighter, a fighter who happened to pick his opposition and maintain, just slightly (having almost lost to a 43 year old) an undefeated record in a relatively recently created weight class (super middleweight) and never having fought at a traditional weight class - middleweight or light heavyweight.

[TigerMoth]

Oh, by the way, Joe C's second great achievement, beating Kessler - well, Kessler is currently ranked #4 Super Middleweight by BoxRec. Surely beating Kessler shows Joe C is a future HOF.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well, I wish Joe C would log on .

- You've wished on one hand and schpit on the other.

We see what kind of log you're holding on to and t'aint a pretty sight.

[dempseyfire]

Calzaghe did all one can ask of a modern fighter. He never lost, beat the other top guys in the division in their prime (Mitchell, Lacy, and Kessler) beat two ATGs (Roy, Hopkins) both past their best but Hopkins was and is still a top 5 PFP fighter, so that is no Ali-Archie Moore or Tyson-Holmes comparison there.

To claim Kessler 'hasn't proved' he's an excellent fighter is utter BS.

You obviously have your own opinion and it varies greatly with mine.

If one's criteria of getting into the HOF is beating another great fighter in his prime, than Floyd isn't getting in by those standards either.

[Rocky Balboa]

Joe Calzaghe will not box again, I am confident of that! Even if his mind told him that he's up for a comeback, its all about how the body responds. Joe had openly said that while he misses the buzz & adrenaline rush of Boxing, he does not miss the training, dieting, sacrifice, etc. I can't see him ever wanting to go through the required discipline of a training camp again.

The only way his undefeated record gets tarnished is if he does not win Strictly come Dancing & even in that, he the current favourite with the bookies!

[Finn]

Well, apprently there aren't any Joe C fans who can point to a significant win against a world class opponent who wasn't washed up, over-the-hill.

Hopkins was 43 years old when he fought Joe C and the result was a split decision. Hardly a HOF achievement.

Kessler, 38 of his 41 wins have occured in Denmark - not exactly the hotbed of boxings finest. Put differently, does anyone think Kessler is at least a potential HOF fighter?

So, who has Joe C beaten?

Kessler is by far the best fighter out there in the smw, who was there for Calzaghe to fight, RJJ? he wouldnt fight Calzaghe, Benn, Eubank or Colins when he was in his prime, he was to busy dodging the bums in the US.

Calzaghe faught everyone who would get in the ring with him, who was there out there that he could have faught that was willing to fight him?

[Finn]

calzaghe doesnt need to prove he's a great fighter by fighting again. Kessler is going to do that for him by decimating his rivals in the super six tourney, then what are people going to say "Kessler is the greatest fighter ever BUT he wasnt in his prime when he faught calzaghe" ha ha.

[observer1]

Well, apprently there aren't any Joe C fans who can point to a significant win against a world class opponent who wasn't washed up, over-the-hill.

Hopkins was 43 years old when he fought Joe C and the result was a split decision. Hardly a HOF achievement.

Kessler, 38 of his 41 wins have occured in Denmark - not exactly the hotbed of boxings finest. Put differently, does anyone think Kessler is at least a potential HOF fighter?

So, who has Joe C beaten?

Kessler is by far the best fighter out there in the smw, who was there for Calzaghe to fight, RJJ? he wouldnt fight Calzaghe, Benn, Eubank or Colins when he was in his prime, he was to busy dodging the bums in the US.

Calzaghe faught everyone who would get in the ring with him, who was there out there that he could have faught that was willing to fight him?

lol

If Joe made the same effort to go abroad to face someone like he did recently, maybe then he would have faced someone half-decent.

Hopkins is at the end of his career, looking for his final few paydays. His activity (or lack off) says it all.

RJJ was dangerously KO'd about 5 years ago, not once, but twice.

There is a reason why the Joe-RJJ "Megafight" (lol) was a flop.

Sorry, but whilst guys like Johnson, Tarver, Hopkins, Roy Jones dang even Toney and Taylor to some extend were in the Mix.

Joe opted out, insisting on the likes of Lacy and Kessler. Sorry, but that's just pathetic.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Sorry, but whilst guys like Johnson, Tarver, Hopkins, Roy Jones dang even Toney and Taylor to some extend were in the Mix.

Joe opted out, insisting on the likes of Lacy and Kessler. Sorry, but that's just pathetic.

- You're utterly laughable, so let's go ahead and clown you too since the thread originator has already pulled his own pants down to great guffaws.

Mr. Pops' record against your first category of names: 2-4

Johnson's record: 2-2

Tarver's record: 3-3

Jones' record: 3-4

Toney's record: 0-1

Taylor's record: 2-0

Lacy's record: 0-1

Kessler's record: 0-0

Joe's record: 2-0

Mr Pop's record against your 2nd category of names: 0-0

Johnson's record: 0-0

Tarver's record: 0-0

Jones' record: 1-0

Toney's record: 0-0

Taylor's record: 1-0

Lacy's record: 0-0

Kessler's record: 0-0

Joe's record: 2-0

Mr. Pop's record for the two combined categories of names you've listed: 2-4
Johnson's record: 2-2

Tarver's record: 3-3

Jones' record: 4-4

Toney's record: 0-1

Taylor's record: 3-0

Lacy's record: 0-3

Kessler's record: 0-1

Joe's record: 2-0

Sorry, but whilst Joe was cleaning out the supermiddle of the reigning prime undefeated young lions at the end of Joe's won record setting career past his prime, Mr. Pops was booted out the middle division, skipped over the prime undefeated supermid champs and Joe himself for the 2nd time ducking Joe, and chose to fight one fight against a 40 yr old champ with a limited, spotty title record and career record.

Sorrier still that you can't see when future historians evaluate this period that they won't be impressed with the Tarver win as much as Mr. Pops getting his act together in the middle of his career to run off 20 straight largely uncontest title wins against somewhat modest comp. A prime Lacy or Kessler is a damn sight more impressive on Joe's CV than any middle Mr. Pops beat, although beating a prime Tito coming up from welter ranks with strong showings in his brief stays at 154-160 in his full pomp is a lot of legacy points for Mr. Pops who otherwise ranks near back of the pack based on his record against the names you provided.

Roy fought the most names hands down. By excellence in results, it's Joe , then Taylor, then Roy with the best records, but Tarver and Johnson clearly a cut above Mr. Pops at 4th and 5th with Mr Pops sliding in 6th of 9th.

Yes, indeedy, you do look so magnifico in your oversized Bozo fire engine red rubber shoes and nose.......HONK-HONK........ 8)

[Finn]

Well, apprently there aren't any Joe C fans who can point to a significant win against a world class opponent who wasn't washed up, over-the-hill.

Hopkins was 43 years old when he fought Joe C and the result was a split decision. Hardly a HOF achievement.

Kessler, 38 of his 41 wins have occured in Denmark - not exactly the hotbed of boxings finest. Put differently, does anyone think Kessler is at least a potential HOF fighter?

So, who has Joe C beaten?

who has hopkins beaten?

If you honestly think kessler isnt a world class opponent or in my opinion the best supper middle weight in the world then you might want to watch some of his fights. Denmark may not be a hotbed of boxing, but i think people forget american fighters more often than not are massively overhyped and gain their reputations off fighting each other, and having countless rematches.

Kessler may not make it into the hall of fames considering its american and as we all know americans think america is the world. Hence the American Football world champions!

[I Feel Fine]

I don't think it needs to be debated that the United States has offered a lot more to the sport than Great Britain has. As for the hall of fame; I seem to recall Lennox Lewis being inducted just a little while ago.
Hopkins holds the all time Middleweight defense record, was Light Heavyweight champion, and has fought four top ten pound for pound fighters (at the time) all above the age of 40. Calzaghe barely beat him with a seven year age advantage. Get serious.

[Finn]

I don't think it needs to be debated that the United States has offered a lot more to the sport than Great Britain has. As for the hall of fame; I seem to recall Lennox Lewis being inducted just a little while ago.
Hopkins holds the all time Middleweight defense record, was Light Heavyweight champion, and has fought four top ten pound for pound fighters (at the time) all above the age of 40. Calzaghe barely beat him with a seven year age advantage. Get serious.

if hopkins had actually tried fighting instead of wrestling and throwing himself on the floor then he would have been destroyed, he knew that and thats why he adopted those tactics instead of trying to fight.

Yeh i saw america did really well for boxing in the last olympics lol. A nation of 280+ million offered more to boxing than great britain a country with 60 million people, yer right!!! WE INVENTED IT you clown.

Theres no doubt that america has hyped the pro boxing scene and made it worth alot of money, but thats created alot of overhyped american boxers who have managed to hide from fighting real contenders from the rest of the world, by fighting other second rate overhyped american fighters.

Anyone who wins something in america is considered a world champion by americans.

If lennox lewis has been added to the hall of fame it must clearly be a truelly international and world wide institution. ha ha.