Joe Calzaghe vs .... all at age twenty eight, at 168 lbs

[Robinson]

BRR
is not a fan of Evan Field's so he would envision a vitamined up Holy
having a heart attack against Calzaghe.
:)

[banjo]

Tommy Hearns Tommy KO
Bernard Hopkins Bernard points
Roy Jones Jr Roy KO
James Toney Joe points
Antonio Tarver Joe points
Michael Spinks Michael KO
Bob Foster Bob KO
Archie Moore Archie KO
Carlos Monzoon Joe points
Sugar Ray Robinson SRR points
Sugar Ray Leonard Joe points
Chris Eubank Chris points
Nigel Benn Joe points
Jake LaMotta Joe points
Dwight Muhammad Qawi Dwight points
"Bobby" Czyz Bobby points
Harry Greb no comment, never seen him fight
Stanley Ketchell ditto
Ezzard Charles Ezzard KO
John Conteh John points
Nino Benvenuti Joe points

[jimglen]

Dwight Muhammad Qawi too strong, too powerful and a bit unrelenting, especially against a guy whose strength and/or size 'isn't' too much of a disadvantage to Qawi.

Dwight Qawi Win by KO.

[The Great John L]

Valuev fights top ten fighters, i wouldnt consider him a real champion? however if he were american im sure he would be getting compared to lennox lewis right now.

Sorry, but I think if Valuev was an American he would be fighting the great Kali and The Big Show.

[NazNaci1]

Tommy Hearns - Tommy KO
Bernard Hopkins - Bernard points
Roy Jones Jr - Roy KO
James Toney - Calzaghe points
Antonio Tarver - Close one, probably Calzaghe on points
Michael Spinks - Michael KO
Bob Foster - Bob KO
Archie Moore - Archie KO
Carlos Monzoon - Monzon on points
Sugar Ray Robinson - Ray Robinson points
Sugar Ray Leonard - SRL on points
Chris Eubank - Chris points
Nigel Benn - Benn on points
Jake LaMotta - Calzaghe on points
Dwight Muhammad Qawi - Dwight points
"Bobby" Czyz - Calzaghe on points
Harry Greb - Greb on points
Stanley Ketchell - Calzaghe on points
Ezzard Charles - Ezzard KO
John Conteh - John points
Nino Benvenuti - Nino on points

Some close fights in there too, vs Eubanks, vs Hopkins, for example.

[dr_devious]

Calzaghe was protected almost all his career until he fought Lacy and Kessler. He was an extremely talented fighter but I suppose we will never know how good he really was.

[giacomino]

Joe C, at 28, had a UD over Starie, a KO of Omar Sheika and a KO of Richie Woodhall (who had recently lost to the great Markus Beyer at home). The below projections are all based on fighting each opponent when they were 28

Tommy Hearns - 28 in 1986-87. Hearns moved up that year to KO Andries for a light heavy title, but Joe is better. Hearns UD
Bernard Hopkins - Lost on points to Jones that year. Hopkins SD or Joe C SD.
Roy Jones Jr - At 28, Jones lost DQ to Griffin, then KO'd him in one and ko'd Virgil Hill in 4. He was dominant at that age. Jones by KO
James Toney - Joe C outworks Toney for UD in what was a pretty mediocre year for Toney
Antonio Tarver - Tarver was just starting out at 28. Joe C by UD. I suspect Joe C beats Tarver at any age
Michael Spinks - Spinks was a pretty dominant light heavy champ at the time and I see him winning UD or one-punch KO
Bob Foster - At 28, Foster was on his way up. Close UD for Joe or KO for Foster.
Archie Moore - Archie was still far removed from his title, but, like Charles, beat great competition on the way up. Moore by KO
Carlos Monzon - At 28, Monzon won the MW title beating an underrated Benvenuti. He had the size and talent to beat Joe by UD
Sugar Ray Robinson - At 28 Robinson was still a dominant welterweight champion but he fought a lot of his non-title fights at middleweight. Robinson, wide UD
Sugar Ray Leonard - SRL would have been jumping a long way from welterweight to super middleweight at 28. Wouldn't have been surprised by either fighter winning UD.
Chris Eubank - Eubank was still WBO champion at 28, and Joe C would have been, IMO, one of his toughest fights at that point. Joe C by UD
Nigel Benn - Benn was a bomber at 28, winning the WBC title at that age. Joe C leads the fight most of the way, Benn scores late KO
Jake LaMotta -Won the middleweight title at 28, so I would go with LaMotta by UD, but a few years later, I would go with Joe C by UD
Dwight Muhammad Qawi - Qawi won a light heavy title at 28 and he was all pressure, all buzzsaw at that age. I think he would be too strong for Joe C. Qawi by late KO
"Bobby" Czyz - Joe C on points at pretty much any age over Czyz
Harry Greb - At 28, he was coming off a UD over Gene Tunney. I think he'd be too busy for Joe C and win by UD
Stanley Ketchell - Shot dead at 24, so I am guessing Joe C would have been able to beat the tar out of his corpse. Ketchell had tremendous power, and a 24-year-old Ketchell by 15-round KO.
Ezzard Charles - Ezzard KO. He was superb at that age
John Conteh - Coneth fought an epic battle with Saad Muhammed at 28 (Lost a close UD), but got KO'd in the follow the next year. I can see Joe C's lefty style bothering Conteh, and I will go with Joe C by UD
Nino Benvenuti - Nino lost the junior-middleweight title on a SD in Korea at 28 and beat Griffith in the first of their trilogy for the middleweight title. Benvenuti, probably fighting at no more than about 162, 163, scores a SD over Joe C

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Joe C, at 28, had a UD over Starie, a KO of Omar Sheika and a KO of Richie Woodhall (who had recently lost to the great Markus Beyer at home). The below projections are all based on fighting each opponent when they were 28

Tommy Hearns - 28 in 1986-87. Hearns moved up that year to KO Andries for a light heavy title, but Joe is better. Hearns UD
Bernard Hopkins - Lost on points to Jones that year. Hopkins SD or Joe C SD.
Roy Jones Jr - At 28, Jones lost DQ to Griffin, then KO'd him in one and ko'd Virgil Hill in 4. He was dominant at that age. Jones by KO
James Toney - Joe C outworks Toney for UD in what was a pretty mediocre year for Toney
Antonio Tarver - Tarver was just starting out at 28. Joe C by UD. I suspect Joe C beats Tarver at any age
Michael Spinks - Spinks was a pretty dominant light heavy champ at the time and I see him winning UD or one-punch KO
Bob Foster - At 28, Foster was on his way up. Close UD for Joe or KO for Foster.
Archie Moore - Archie was still far removed from his title, but, like Charles, beat great competition on the way up. Moore by KO
Carlos Monzon - At 28, Monzon won the MW title beating an underrated Benvenuti. He had the size and talent to beat Joe by UD
Sugar Ray Robinson - At 28 Robinson was still a dominant welterweight champion but he fought a lot of his non-title fights at middleweight. Robinson, wide UD
Sugar Ray Leonard - SRL would have been jumping a long way from welterweight to super middleweight at 28. Wouldn't have been surprised by either fighter winning UD.
Chris Eubank - Eubank was still WBO champion at 28, and Joe C would have been, IMO, one of his toughest fights at that point. Joe C by UD
Nigel Benn - Benn was a bomber at 28, winning the WBC title at that age. Joe C leads the fight most of the way, Benn scores late KO
Jake LaMotta -Won the middleweight title at 28, so I would go with LaMotta by UD, but a few years later, I would go with Joe C by UD
Dwight Muhammad Qawi - Qawi won a light heavy title at 28 and he was all pressure, all buzzsaw at that age. I think he would be too strong for Joe C. Qawi by late KO
"Bobby" Czyz - Joe C on points at pretty much any age over Czyz
Harry Greb - At 28, he was coming off a UD over Gene Tunney. I think he'd be too busy for Joe C and win by UD
Stanley Ketchell - Shot dead at 24, so I am guessing Joe C would have been able to beat the tar out of his corpse. Ketchell had tremendous power, and a 24-year-old Ketchell by 15-round KO.
Ezzard Charles - Ezzard KO. He was superb at that age
John Conteh - Coneth fought an epic battle with Saad Muhammed at 28 (Lost a close UD), but got KO'd in the follow the next year. I can see Joe C's lefty style bothering Conteh, and I will go with Joe C by UD
Nino Benvenuti - Nino lost the junior-middleweight title on a SD in Korea at 28 and beat Griffith in the first of their trilogy for the middleweight title. Benvenuti, probably fighting at no more than about 162, 163, scores a SD over Joe C

- A fair assessment, finally, but Joe would beat Robby who struggled with bigger boxer types, and beat Leonard and Hearns who never beat prime LHs near the class of Joe.

Benvenuti would be like fighting his shadow, interesting fight, pickem, and Moore/Mr. Pops too inconsistent and not a LHs at 28.

Don't think Ketchel was gonna make 28 come hell or highwater, but what a war and same deal with Monzon/Qawi.

Main guys to beat Joe are Jones, Greb, Charles, and Spinks, all being the elite of elite. He'd beat 3/4ths of the rest.

[Grimm]

I'd give him the edge over Ketchell,Benn and I'd say the fight with Tarver could go either way.

[TigerMoth]

[quote]beat Leonard and Hearns who never beat prime LHs near the class of Joe[/quote]

Wow, pretty confusing statement since Joe wasn't a LH.

How in the heck would Joe beat Hearns? Tommy would have kept at a distance, popped him with his fast, strong jab until there was an opening and then dropped him with a devastating right hand. When did Tommy ever have any difficulty with someone didn't connect with a true power punch?

Is there anyway that Joe could have won against SRL. Remember SRL against Tommy Hearns at Welterweight and again at SMW, against Hagler at MW? Was Joe faster? - no! Was Joe a more powerful puncher? - no! Was Joe more tenacious? - no! Did Joe have more stamina? - no! Did Joe have a better chin than SRL? no! Exactly what advantage did Joe have over SRL that could have led to his victory?

[Collins2000]

TigerMoth, try to work out how to use the "quote" feature properly will ya.

[I Feel Fine]

SRR at 28 would certainly beat Calzaghe. SRL at 28 has an excellent chance. Especially in a series of fights.

[Robinson]

Hey you guuuyzz

[Ezzard]

I don’t really know what to make of this thread. Apply the same basic principles to everyone and there’s little to choose.

Calzaghe did market himself behind the paper screen of the WBO title and then only really take on a handful of the world’s best at the end of his career. BUT then so did almost all of the fighters of his era. Jones and Toney don’t exactly have records bulging with wins over greats. Hopkins has only been beating/fighting the best out there later on in his career… There aren’t any budding Harry Grebs amongst any of them.

If you think Hopkins, Jones and Toney were better fighters than Calzaghe then fair enough. But if you’re trying to claim that they were all-time greats and he wasn’t because of criteria almost none of them fulfil then that’s a pretty poor show. They are all guilty of the same crimes to different degrees.

There seems to be a claim that certain fighters missed fights because nobody would fight them whereas Joe missed fights because he wouldn’t take them. I think there needs to be some consistency.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

SRR at 28 would certainly beat Calzaghe. SRL at 28 has an excellent chance. Especially in a series of fights.

- You would certainly be better suited on a quilting forum, or perhaps a gardening forum, something more suited to your natural attributes.

I would never ever completely dismiss any fighter's chance for an upset, but Robby never beat a ranked LH that I know of, nor was ever a force in the LH division save for his storied title challenge against Maxim, a life altering experience for him that sees him scurry into some extended retirement after his near death ring experience.

At age 28, Robby had a very low key year for him, defending his welt belt against Kid Gavilan, and when not doing a celebrity trot around the continental US fighting local club fighter middles, going 15-0, 11 KO. Modern fight fans would call this padding out his record while protecting his title. Of course now we wait with baited breath for you to accuse me of accusing Robby of this, as if me noting any factual detail makes me responsible for some hidden meaning you want to project on me.

Gavilan, a tallish boxer/stylist, put on this level of performance after a hotly disputed decision loss the year before that almost caused a ring riot: "The contest was a most interesting and satisfying one. Gavilan's performance was such as to make Ray admit that he feared to take chances. In the fourth round Sugar Ray suffered a cut over the right eye that bled throughout the bout..For the first six rounds it was anybody's fight..But after the sixth, there was not doubt about Ray (having the better of it)." (The Ring, September 1949, pp. 10-11.)

A year after Gavilan, Robby defended his welt title for the last time against Charley Fusari, a good stylist of little note who took him the distance. Footage I've seen of the fight show a rather cautious lukewarm fencing match with little to separate the fighters but that Robby was more the aggressor and Fusari looking to take few offensive chances. A still developing Holly Mims also fights him the next year, too wit: "" Mims was down in round two, the first knockdown he had experienced as a pro, however he cut Robinson's eye and gave him a tough fight. ""

So, at age 28, with the details I provide of the record, nobody to make Robby the fav for this bout. You, of course, will loudly and great obscenity sound off through your "opinion," providing no content save the unseen sulfurous gaseous form. Fine. Leonard never beat a ranked fighter above 154 in their weight class save the hotly disputed Hagler travesty, and Hearns never beat a fighter of Joe's class in any of his forays into middle-cruiser divisions. Certainly Hearns would be an interesting match because of his early power, but with Hearns notorious poor stamina and spaghetti legs betraying him later rounds as Joe gets strongest, I just don't see it.

Always interesting from a boxing perspective to see someone with poor boxing talents and acumen so furiously and with such great effort as to seemingly pull up the entire weight of the world through their own bootstraps put out so much effort as you do on this forum.......... 8)

[Robinson]

Ray Robinson is a fighter more than all the others that has secured a place
in boxing legendom that has made it hard to have a conversation about him.
The man was great, innovative and pioneering, he was also a man, and a
fighter, like any he had faults in and out of the ring.

We are drilled as fans that Ray Robinson is the sports best, and will always
be this. People cite this without ever having watched a full fight of Robinson's.

I have watched a few, he is a great talent for his era no doubt, but I do not
think he was invincible. He has some Losses to his name in his era, and no
doubt would experience some more against that above list.
I wish I had more of his fights as the man deserves the praise he gets, but some
people get silly when it comes to him.

I have since learned that Robinson, Louis, Ali and perhaps Marciano are guys
you do not get into discussions about, because you enter a realm where
people seem to get ... dare I say it....semi religious.

Here is the safe answer...

Ray Robinson beats them all.

[Ezzard]

Ray Robinson is a fighter more than all the others that has secured a place
in boxing legendom that has made it hard to have a conversation about him.
The man was great, innovative and pioneering, he was also a man, and a
fighter, like any he had faults in and out of the ring.

We are drilled as fans that Ray Robinson is the sports best, and will always
be this. People cite this without ever having watched a full fight of Robinson's.

I have watched a few, he is a great talent for his era no doubt, but I do not
think he was invincible. He has some Losses to his name in his era, and no
doubt would experience some more against that above list.
I wish I had more of his fights as the man deserves the praise he gets, but some
people get silly when it comes to him.

I have since learned that Robinson, Louis, Ali and perhaps Marciano are guys
you do not get into discussions about, because you enter a realm where
people seem to get ... dare I say it....semi religious.

Here is the safe answer...

Ray Robinson beats them all.

Can’t say I’ve noticed this on the boards.

Many people on here will argue that Monzon beats Robinson. I’ve even think that Hearns could win a 10 rounder.

He lost to La Motta and had some close fights (though he was sort of still growing into a full MW). Some experts think Cerdan might have been a stern test. Robinson also lost to Turpin etc… I don’t think anyone really sees him as untouchable at 160.

The problem is when some clown posts a thread like “X too fast. Robinson down in 6.”

The greats can beat one another in a one-off fight. But if you’re going to claim that some hyped up contemporary (someone who has basically fought 1 or 2 great fighters ) beats a legend then you need to have a good argument. Quoting stats and trotting out blind maxims is not good enough when a guy fought at Robinson’s level for as long as he did.

I'm more than happy to discuss MWs you think might have beaten Robinson based on styles and the rest...

[Robinson]

I never said anything about hyped up more recent guys or anything.
I have not listed who I think may have beaten him...

All I am saying is that all to often is that the safe line is Ray was the
best...without question.

I have not watched enough of him, I want to see more of him. I will
confess this.

MWs is not my strength I will confess, I do like the division but have
not watched enough of it to really be comfortable to come close to
making a top ten for example (though I still have yet to do a HW one ;)).

All I am trying to say is generally...generally speaking Ray Robinson is
above criticism these days.

Monzon vs Robinson would be an awesome fight. Having just watched a
few of Monzon's fights I must say the may would trouble and beat a lot
of guys.

[Ezzard]

I never said anything about hyped up more recent guys or anything.
I have not listed who I think may have beaten him...

All I am saying is that all to often is that the safe line is Ray was the
best...without question.

I have not watched enough of him, I want to see more of him. I will
confess this.

MWs is not my strength I will confess, I do like the division but have
not watched enough of it to really be comfortable to come close to
making a top ten for example (though I still have yet to do a HW one ;)).

All I am trying to say is generally...generally speaking Ray Robinson is
above criticism these days.

Monzon vs Robinson would be an awesome fight. Having just watched a
few of Monzon's fights I must say the may would trouble and beat a lot
of guys.

Not actually accusing you of anything.

I just think it’s hard to criticise a guy like Robinson when you look at the likes of Jones, Toney, Calzaghe etc…

[Grimm]

Valuev fights top ten fighters, i wouldnt consider him a real champion? however if he were american im sure he would be getting compared to lennox lewis right now.

Sorry, but I think if Valuev was an American he would be fighting the great Kali and The Big Show.

[Finn]

I don’t really know what to make of this thread. Apply the same basic principles to everyone and there’s little to choose.

Calzaghe did market himself behind the paper screen of the WBO title and then only really take on a handful of the world’s best at the end of his career. BUT then so did almost all of the fighters of his era. Jones and Toney don’t exactly have records bulging with wins over greats. Hopkins has only been beating/fighting the best out there later on in his career… There aren’t any budding Harry Grebs amongst any of them.

If you think Hopkins, Jones and Toney were better fighters than Calzaghe then fair enough. But if you’re trying to claim that they were all-time greats and he wasn’t because of criteria almost none of them fulfil then that’s a pretty poor show. They are all guilty of the same crimes to different degrees.

There seems to be a claim that certain fighters missed fights because nobody would fight them whereas Joe missed fights because he wouldn’t take them. I think there needs to be some consistency.

i said the same thing. But there seems to be a bias on these threads against calzaghe, when theres people trying to say traver and spinks would have beaten him, you have to wonder if these people actually watched any of his fights other than the hopkins fight.

[dempseyfire]

I don’t really know what to make of this thread. Apply the same basic principles to everyone and there’s little to choose.

Calzaghe did market himself behind the paper screen of the WBO title and then only really take on a handful of the world’s best at the end of his career. BUT then so did almost all of the fighters of his era. Jones and Toney don’t exactly have records bulging with wins over greats. Hopkins has only been beating/fighting the best out there later on in his career… There aren’t any budding Harry Grebs amongst any of them.

If you think Hopkins, Jones and Toney were better fighters than Calzaghe then fair enough. But if you’re trying to claim that they were all-time greats and he wasn’t because of criteria almost none of them fulfil then that’s a pretty poor show. They are all guilty of the same crimes to different degrees.

There seems to be a claim that certain fighters missed fights because nobody would fight them whereas Joe missed fights because he wouldn’t take them. I think there needs to be some consistency.

Solid post.

[I Feel Fine]

Calzaghe was beating Omar Sheika at 28, one of the best names on his record to that stage. Legend. Clearly Ray Robinson could never beat that level of opposition.
Robinson in his good and declining years beat seven hall of fame Middleweights. Robinson at 28 at Middleweight would have been close to unbeatable. There was no Super Middleweight division, surely he would have won a title there if it had been there, had he moved up. We know that he was on his way to beating Maxim when he had his heat stroke, as the ref did, Maxim was so befuddled by Robinson's style that he barely did anything and did not tire as a result, and though this usually leads to lengthy debates at its very mention; so be it. Robinson in normal conditions would have probably won the Light Heavyweight title against Maxim. Ray could surely have beaten a 43 year old Hopkins in a twelve round fight to take the Light Heavyweight title, if we can agree on nothing else.
Leonard barely beat Hagler... yes... though Hagler even at that age was hardly out of Calzaghe's league. Ray at 28 and active (not the Kevin Howard Leonard) would probably be in his prime, which we never really got to see because of his retirements and he would have a solid shot at beating Joe, especially in a series. As for a fight with Hearns, I can see it going either way, but Tommy has a very solid chance. Hearns against boxers who do not have a big punch, whom he had a height and reach advantage on; to say that Hearns does not have an excellent chance is blind.
I will recapitulate some earlier comments; Calzaghe was a great fighter, the best at 168, but he does not have a win over a James Toney or a Heavyweight John Ruiz as Jones does, Jones had seventeen title defenses in his career in three weight classes which is not far off from the number that Joe had all together and Roy of course had belts in more weight classes. Calzaghe does not have the list of opponents that Hopkins has, and head to head he managed only a very close split decision against a much older Hopkins, he certainly would have lost against the 2001 peak Hopkins. To deny that is myopic. Toney had an uneven career and it is clear that Calzaghe rates ahead of him over all based on consistency. But Toney on his good nights would give Calzaghe all he could handle, and could surely have a shot at beating him. Toney on a bad night would probably lose almost every round.
Kingfin... Spinks? If you mean Michael Spinks, which I am sure you do, Michael would box and punch circles around Calzaghe. Calzaghe loses big time, my friend, his accomplishment would be to try to make it the full distance.

[giacomino]

I don’t really know what to make of this thread. Apply the same basic principles to everyone and there’s little to choose.

Calzaghe did market himself behind the paper screen of the WBO title and then only really take on a handful of the world’s best at the end of his career. BUT then so did almost all of the fighters of his era. Jones and Toney don’t exactly have records bulging with wins over greats. Hopkins has only been beating/fighting the best out there later on in his career… There aren’t any budding Harry Grebs amongst any of them.

If you think Hopkins, Jones and Toney were better fighters than Calzaghe then fair enough. But if you’re trying to claim that they were all-time greats and he wasn’t because of criteria almost none of them fulfil then that’s a pretty poor show. They are all guilty of the same crimes to different degrees.

There seems to be a claim that certain fighters missed fights because nobody would fight them whereas Joe missed fights because he wouldn’t take them. I think there needs to be some consistency.

i said the same thing. But there seems to be a bias on these threads against calzaghe, when theres people trying to say traver and spinks would have beaten him, you have to wonder if these people actually watched any of his fights other than the hopkins fight.

I've seen a number of Joe's fights and don't either dismiss or dislike him at all. Always thought he was pretty solid and always wished he would have slapped Ottke around. Can't see Tarver ever beating him. But I also saw most of Spinks fights just before he won the light heavyweight title and during his title reign, and the question was what would happen if Joe and Spinks fought when they were both 28. IMO, Joe C would have given Spinks a tough fight, but Spinks would have been too strong for Joe C and his right hand would have eventually found the mark.

[Ezzard]

Calzaghe was only at 175 for a short time so it's hard to gauge him there really.

Even so he would beat Tarver and Czyz.

Spinks would scramble him though. Spinks would have beaten Hopkins, Jones, Toney and Calzaghe. To find an opponent to beat Spinks you've got to go back to the legends like Charles and Moore.