Julio Cesar Chavez was OVERRATED OR UNDERRATED???

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 12 Oct 2004, 14:55

Hello Folks!!!

I would like your opinion of the great Julio Cesar Chavez. Does his pro record indicates or proves that he was an all time top 20 fighter or was he really good and belong with the RING IMMORTALS AND LEGENDS???

As I went through his record, he won a record-setting 87 fights in a row, and has also the record of most world title wins (31), most world title appearances (37), and most consecutive world title bouts without a loss in a row with 27.

Also I see that he beat a total of 13 world champions and possibly 5 or 6 HALL OF FAMERS. But none of the world champions he beat were UNDISPUTED, nor EVEN in the top 100 greatest fighters of all time.

I USED TO THINK THAT HE WAS EXTREMELY GREAT. BUT I compared his record and accomplishments with greats like Archie Moore, Carlos Monzon, Ezzard Charles, Jimmy Wilde, Jack Dempsey, Pernell Whitaker and even with Sam Langford and Sandy Saddler and these fighters mentioned made me change my mind....NOT ONLY THEY WERE BETTER THAN CHAVEZ, THEY WERE MORE DOMINANT AND BEAT BETTER FIGHTERS......ONLY CHAVEZ, IN MY OWN OPINION HAD BETTER RECORD OVER THEM.

The other thing that changed my mind about him was when on the night of September 10, 1993 TO DEFINE HIS LEGACY, ERA AND AURA OF INVINCIBILITY in San Antonio, WAS COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED, DOMINATED AND MASTERED by the great Norfolk, VA master Pernell "Sweet Pea" Whitaker IN HIS PRIME. And after that, Chavez was NEVER THE SAME!!!

What do you guys think???

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 Oct 2004, 16:50

Great fighter, but def. in the all-time PFP rankings is not in the league of your Armstrongs, Grebs, Walkers, Robinsons etc. Was over-rated right after he retired but oddly you don't hear about him much anymore . . .

babyhuey · Post by **babyhuey** » 13 Oct 2004, 01:09

you make a great argument, well researched and good points but,
you can not compare him to boxers of old...
its like the mayweather -vs- ray robinson post,
boxers of old fought more, for less, and were far more mentally tuff...
records of fighters today isnt one fourth as numberious as the days of old,
those guys fought alot today fighter fight what...4 times a year if were lucky look at the consistency in fights of the old boxers you compared chavez too...
and your point about pernell....its a strong point but, styles make fights,
pernell was a defensive freak and one of the most underated fighters of all time, my opinion, pernell beat oscar in oscars prime, and oscar wanted nothing to do with a rematch....but as for chavez, yes, i would certainly put him in p4p with the best of all time, where?? its hard to say,
i can only compare him to who he fought,
as for your research....instead of his record on boxrec
go back and watch his fights, i think you might have a possable change of mind....

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 13 Oct 2004, 17:00

Well. Let's see:

Was Chavez better than this group of fighters: Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis and Roberto Duran???

I DON'T THINK SO.

Was Chavez better by this other selcted group right here: Willie Pep, Benny Leonard, Jack Johnson, Sugar Ray Leonard and Harry Greb.

IS IT HARD TO THINK THAT THESE MONSTERS MENTIONED ARE NOT BETTER THAN CHAVEZ???

Let's see the other 7: Rocky Marciano, Pernell Whitaker, Carlos Monzon, Jimmy Wilde, Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore and Sam Langford

NOT A CHANCE!!!, HE CANNOT COME NEAR THESE GUYS IN MY OPINION

Let's see the next 3: Marvin Hagler, Sandy Saddler, Jack Dempsey.

I SEE HE GOT A BETTER CHANCE TO ENTER BETWEEN THE LAST 3 What do you guys think of these 20 great fighters...??? Was Chavez BETTER THAN ANY OF THE 20 MENTIONED???

shanbopop · Post by **shanbopop** » 13 Oct 2004, 17:31

its not really fair to compare him to those mentioned,but to compare him to other great welterweights hes definitely top 10

jsc1973 · Post by **jsc1973** » 14 Oct 2004, 03:34

Chavez was a super featherweight, lightweight and light-welterweight. He never held a title at welterweight.

I would put him a half-step below the all-time greats. He may have been the best p4p boxer in the world for a few years, but he never really had a career-defining fight. His most memorable fight was one he didn't really win--the first fight with Meldrick Taylor.

I don't see that the Whitaker fight should count against him. He lost it, but he was chasing a title three weight classes up from where he won his first. He started his career as a super flyweight and was fighting that day for the world welterweight title. Looking back on it today, Chavez had everything to gain and nothing to lose in a historical sense. He's just another star fighter who went one weight class too far.

He's overqualified for the Hall of Fame, but he doesn't quite rank with guys like Robinson, Armstrong, Duran, Greb, etc. IMO.

pringle · Post by **pringle** » 16 Oct 2004, 12:54

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great fighter, but def. in the all-time PFP rankings is not in the league of your Armstrongs, Grebs, Walkers, Robinsons etc. Was over-rated right after he retired but oddly you don't hear about him much anymore . . .

hmmmm, i'll have to think about that one.

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 20 Oct 2004, 06:11

Can anyone please tell me how JCC fought and if he was exciting and so on..? Please!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 20 Oct 2004, 18:23

To be fair to Chavez I think he was never quite the same after the first Taylor fight. I don't think he was at quite at his sharpest when he faced Whittikar.

Chuck1052 · Post by **Chuck1052** » 23 Oct 2004, 02:37

I thought that Julio Cesar Chavez was overrated. Yes, he was a smart fighter who knew how to cut off the ring in addition to being durable and a good bodypuncher. But I thought that he was too easy to hit. As result, I thought that someone like Roberto Duran would beat him easily.

- Chuck Johnston

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 23 Oct 2004, 07:31

{amateur} wrote:Can anyone please tell me how JCC fought and if he was exciting and so on..? Please!

Chavez was usually good value for money, typical aggresive Mexican fighter with a killer left hook to the body. It's worth checking out his Super-feather and Lightweight fights.

In his prime he would clinicaly dismantle and grindown his opponents.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 23 Oct 2004, 12:11

Mike Tyson on what he thought of Chavez after Chavez had stopped Tysons stablemate Edwin Rosario in 11 rounds on 21/11/87.

"All those other Lightweights should retire, Chavez is too dangerous to fight"

{amateur} · Post by **{amateur}** » 29 Oct 2004, 09:37

Thanx for the info guys!

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 30 Oct 2004, 01:13

elmersalsa wrote:

I USED TO THINK THAT HE WAS EXTREMELY GREAT. BUT I compared his record and accomplishments with greats like Jack Dempsey

Yeah, a guy who was knocked out cold in 10 seconds by a club fighter. And is more suspicious than Panama Red.

Lausse · Post by **Lausse** » 30 Oct 2004, 15:13

Tantum wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:

I USED TO THINK THAT HE WAS EXTREMELY GREAT. BUT I compared his record and accomplishments with greats like Jack Dempsey
Yeah, a guy who was knocked out cold in 10 seconds by a club fighter. And is more suspicious than Panama Red.

So you are implying that Jack Dempsey was a fraud then,right?.And the Flynn fight is well known to have been a dive on Dempsey's part for 500$,anyone who honestly thinks that the feather fisted Flynn stopped Jack cold in less then a minute is very naive.

Namilak · Post by **Namilak** » 12 Apr 2018, 19:55

He is Overrated!

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 13 Apr 2018, 14:06

Most guys aren't underrated or overrated. Chavez was a great fighter and most people know that.

I think those that think he overrated are only thinking of his fights with Whitaker and Taylor.
Was he the best of all time? No. However, he had way too many wins over quality opponents to ignore. Camacho, Mayweather (2x), Ramirez, Haugen, Rosario, La Porte, Lockridge etc.
Lockridge gave him all that he could handle but most of the time he won in dominating fashion.

SenorPipino · Post by **SenorPipino** » 14 Apr 2018, 11:29

He was an effin great fighter.

As controversial as it was, the way Chavez showed the huevos to hang in there, never give up and stop Taylor, demonstrated just how gritty he was.

He's overwhelmingly considered the greatest of all Mexican fighters. And Mexico has had more than a few legendary boxers.

The Whitaker fight probably occurred at the point where Chavez was just beginning to slip. A few months later came his first official defeat to Randall.

But Whitaker was outstanding and had a style that would baffle many P4P greats.

Chavez was hardly underrated. Even if you only consider him a top 25 fighter all times, that's a pretty damn good ranking to boast.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 15 Apr 2018, 09:55

I got him ranked at #25 all time pound per pound. Julio Cesar Chavez was a beast, especially in the 1984-90 era, where he was at his absolute best. I ranked him also as the third best fighter of the 1980s behind Sugar Ray Leonard and Mike Tyson. He can really punish you in the body with those terrific left hooks. He could break you down as the fight goes on. He was like a motor. He started slow, but as the motor keeps warming up as the rounds go by, he heated up and after that, he was hard to slow down. The longer the fight, the better. A great fighter by no means. After the Meldrick Taylor fight, he wasn't the same boxer.

DrDuke · Post by **DrDuke** » 15 Apr 2018, 09:58

He is a one of all time greats for sure, but he had also been promoted to build up a record.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 16 Apr 2018, 10:47

Well sure some of his fans have gone overboard. But you could say that with just about any great fighter. As senor pipino says, he is top 25 of all time. There should be no question that he was a great fighter.

SenorPipino · Post by **SenorPipino** » 16 Apr 2018, 11:55

It's idiotic to demean Chavez and attempt to diminish his legacy.

Except for the Taylor fight, he really didn't cone close to losing until the Whitaker bout.

That was his 88th bout. He didn't lose from 1980 until 1994, spanning 90 fights.

One of the greatest streaks in boxing history.

Sure, as Haugen pointed out, there were a bunch of Tijuana taxi drivers included in that remarkable unbeaten skein, but Chavez also vanquished one contender after another from featherweight to super lightweight.

He would have given Duran quite a battle at 135. Duran was a bit quicker, better defensively and adapted to different styles more readily than Chavez.

Both had amazing chins and hurt you whenever they hit you.

Duran probably beats Chavez at 135, but he'd know that he had been in quite a battle.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 16 Apr 2018, 13:42

Chavez was an ATG that stayed around too long. He was methodical; powerful; granite chinned; savvy; and highly skilled. One of the greatest body punchers I've ever seen. Watch several of his fights and see the greatness of El César del Boxeo!!

gilgamesh · Post by **gilgamesh** » 16 Apr 2018, 14:00

Slightly overrated, but still a truly great fighter, and one that will be revered for a long time to come.

Julio Cesar Chavez was OVERRATED OR UNDERRATED???

Julio Cesar Chavez was OVERRATED OR UNDERRATED???

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