prime (?) Mercer

gregor · Post by **gregor** » 11 Oct 2004, 11:38

I was looking for simething and took closer look in Ray Mercer record - I've got really surprised to see he had a draw with Marion Wilson and even lost to Ferguson. It was more or less prime Mercer - as just after Wilson he had close fights with Holyfield and Lewis (both could be draws easily) so I can't imagine how it was possible.
Has anybody seen how it happened (and if it was real or was it one more bad decision)?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 11 Oct 2004, 11:40

Mercer was a good gatekeeper. Even when he was young he was never greatly conditioned and technique wise he was pretty predictable. Some nights he showed up like he could've cared less . . . .for the Ferguson fight he got badly gassed and when he realized he was gonna lose tried to get Ferguson to except a bribe to go down LOL. His lack of stamina also cost him victories against Holyfield and Lewis, although I think Lewis deserved a draw at best.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 13 Oct 2004, 02:29

I've watched the Lewis vs Mercer fight twice. I have it on dvd in fact, and while I think it was close, and a draw would not have been a bad decision, I think the correct decision was made.

The first time I saw the fight, I scored it to Lewis by 1 point, and by 2 points the second time. I'll probably watch it again one day, but I don't particularly enjoy it, because Lewis was pretty poor that day. A draw would have given him what he deserved for his performance, but I really don't think Mercer did enough to win, or even draw the fight. Had he been in better condition and finished strongly, he very well could have won the fight.

thenextbigthing · Post by **thenextbigthing** » 13 Oct 2004, 03:44

I also had it for Lewis by 2, but would have been happier had the fight been called a draw. Lewis was shit and deserved no better on that performance. Considering how awesome he could be sometimes he forever irratated me when he gave shit performances like that. If he hadn't been such a dick by underestimating McCall, then maybe we could have seen him fight Bowe, Tyson and Holyfield in, or nearer their primes. They would have been great fights!

Damn you Lewis, by losing to McCrap you robbed us of three potentially great fights.

gregor · Post by **gregor** » 13 Oct 2004, 08:01

It is true that Lewis was not in shape (I also have this fight - but I have also Holyfield fight and Holyfield did not look out of shape for me - and this fight could go to Mercer if he wouldn't go down in 8th). I agree almost every fighter has better and worse fights - what I was curious was just the much larger difference between "better" and "worse" in this case that I could not figure out - so thanks for your answers.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 13 Oct 2004, 11:51

Lewis was in his absolute prime condition for Mercer-he just couldn't handle the jab and the short shots on the inside, which he couldn't handle his whole career . . .

PeeKay · Post by **PeeKay** » 15 Oct 2004, 11:07

Lewis was in his absolute prime condition for Mercer-he just couldn't handle the jab and the short shots on the inside, which he couldn't handle his whole career . . .

I can understand this point of view, but I don't agree with it. When Lewis was at his best he simply did not allow the short shots on the inside to happen, he used his jab to keep at a good distance, and held whenever he got too close. If Lewis fought as well against Mercer as he did against Rahman or Tyson, he would have got an easy UD, that is, if the fight wasn't stopped.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 15 Oct 2004, 11:59

PeeKay wrote:
Lewis was in his absolute prime condition for Mercer-he just couldn't handle the jab and the short shots on the inside, which he couldn't handle his whole career . . .
I can understand this point of view, but I don't agree with it. When Lewis was at his best he simply did not allow the short shots on the inside to happen, he used his jab to keep at a good distance, and held whenever he got too close. If Lewis fought as well against Mercer as he did against Rahman or Tyson, he would have got an easy UD, that is, if the fight wasn't stopped.

No, b/c Mercer was a much superior opponent to Rahman or the Tyson Lewis fought. He had a much stronger jab then either and could eat Lewis's jab to get through, as he has a great chin. Lewis also held through much of that fight as he always does. Lewis looked so dominant against Tyson and Rahman b/c frankly they were just not good opponents. Don't get this wrong I'm not a Lewis 'hater' and he was an excellent fighter but he has no excuses for the Mercer fight-it showed limitations Lewis had his whole career, and good for Lewis he fought in an era where guys did have stamina problems and were too muslce bound (and/or old), b/c if guys like Briggs and Mercer hadn't gassed so bad as they did in their fights, Lewis would've definetively lost to them, as well as to Holyfield.

pringle · Post by **pringle** » 16 Oct 2004, 07:16

looking back i wonder if his name will keep coming up when "top heavyweight chins" subject matter is discussed. sort of like earnie shavers name coming up whenever "top punchers" are mentioned, despite his less than spectacular career.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 16 Oct 2004, 07:20

Didn't Mercer break his neck sometime in the mid 1990's?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 16 Oct 2004, 14:23

pringle wrote:looking back i wonder if his name will keep coming up when "top heavyweight chins" subject matter is discussed. sort of like earnie shavers name coming up whenever "top punchers" are mentioned, despite his less than spectacular career.

I think definitevely. Took great shots from the likes of Morrison, Lewis, Witherspoon, Holyfield etc. without going down. Only time he went down from a headshot is when he was 41 facing his first world class opponent in over 5 years.

sweetsci · Post by **sweetsci** » 21 Oct 2004, 00:41

gregor wrote:I was looking for simething and took closer look in Ray Mercer record - I've got really surprised to see he had a draw with Marion Wilson and even lost to Ferguson. It was more or less prime Mercer - as just after Wilson he had close fights with Holyfield and Lewis (both could be draws easily) so I can't imagine how it was possible.
Has anybody seen how it happened (and if it was real or was it one more bad decision)?

In the Ferguson fight, Mercer came in at 238, at that point the heaviest of his career. Thus, he just didn't have "it" against even a semi-motivated Ferguson. This fight was notable because Mercer blew an almost guaranteed shot at Riddick Bowe's title, and because he faced criminal charges for allegedly asking Ferguson to take a dive. He was later acquitted.

Against Marion Wilson, Mercer hadn't fought in eight months and came in at new high of 246. Again, he didn't have "it" due to lack of motivation and conditioning, and almost blew it against the cagey Wilson. I seem to remember reading that Wilson deserved the decision, but I could be wrong. On that same card, Tommy Morrison looked similiarly awful against Ross Puritty.

Mercer then had ten months off before he fought Holyfield, so it wasn't really "right after" the Wilson fight. This time gave Mercer time to prepare for Holyfield. This time he was motivated and ready and gave Holyfield a really tough time. Interestingly, going in to this fight it was looked at as a "who's slipped further?" fight. Holyfield was coming off his "retirement" after losing to Moorer - 13 months off - and, as already noted, Mercer hadn't looked good in his last few fights. Instead we got an entertaining fight where both guys wanted to prove something.

klompton · Post by **klompton** » 21 Oct 2004, 01:21

Calling Wilson "cagey" is a bit silly. If being a human shock absorber is "cagey" then he was cagey. Otherwise he was nothing more than a human heavybag who on a night when Mercer was throwing one punch a round, he was throwing two and deserved the decision. Mercer could have been a good fighter but people overlook two things: He was pretty old when he started boxing, and he was totally unmotivated. That being said he gave us some good fights and deserved the win over Lewis. On my tape of that fight the announcers are saying BEFORE THE FIGHT STARTS that Mercer cant win unless he gets a KO. It reminded me a lot of the second holyfield fight in which one guy was doing all the work and the other was jabbing, grabbing, and occasionally trying to steal rounds.

PeeKay · Post by **PeeKay** » 22 Oct 2004, 12:45

I really don't understand anyone who says Mercer deserved the win. He may have put in just as much work as Lewis, and been more effective with the jab, but for me, he wins no more than four rounds, and is generally outboxed by Lewis (although Lewis was poor).

Neither fighter looked great, just Lewis looked worse than expected, and Mercer looked better than expected. For me, Lewis was in fine shape physically, he just underestimated Mercer, and had a bad night all round. If he had come in as mentally prepared as he was in his better fights, he would have won a lot more easily.

For me, if Lewis showed one thing in this fight, its inconsistency. He was never consistently motivated or prepared enough against quality opponents. I think I heard Manny Steward saying that under his previous management, Lewis was operating at 40% of his potential, and under himself, he operated at about 60% of his potential. For me that kind of sums him up. Frustrating. I reckon it would have been interesting had he beaten McCall, and maybe got fights against Bowe, Holyfield and Tyson in the mid 90's. I think he would have been motivated for all three, and beaten them all.

gensu3k1 · Post by **gensu3k1** » 22 Oct 2004, 15:44

I think that LL was simply not that good of a fighter pre-Manny. In addition to having the lack of motivation that others in this thread have mentioned, he simply had an abundance of technical flaws that Manny would later correct. I don't care how much he did or didn't train for the first McCall fight; McCall had the right gameplan and tools to exploit LL's weaknesses.

LL's fight's pre-Manny are like a dirty little secret that his fans don't want to talk about. I had him losing every round to Bruno (BRUNO!) before the KO, and the "controversy" surrounding the McCall KO was manufactured by HBO's broadcast team.

He did become a very good heavyweight, albeit one I have a hard time putting in my all-time top 10. But he was not a great fighter in the early to mid 90s. While Bowe may have ducked him, I seriously doubt that Don King was really that worried about him, and had he not been KO'd by McCall a Tyson fight would have happened. And I think Tyson would have won.

As for Mercer, he will go down as one of the most inconsistent heavyweights ever. Excellent when in shape, mediocre when out of shape and unmotivated (as in the Holmes fight).

prime (?) Mercer

prime (?) Mercer

Re: prime (?) Mercer

Wilson-HA