Ali on Dempsey video..

[Collins2000]

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The difference between Ali and Dempsey was that Ali fought near EVERYONE
and this happened after his 3 year absence.

Dempsey took a break and sat on the title, came back and lost the title to
a light heavyweight. Ali lost to one of the best conditioned sluggers of the
sport and then went on to re win it twice....

So comparing Ali to Dempsey is not an easy thing, but here is the facts...
Dempsey drew a colour line..
Dempsey sat on the title for 3 years...
Dempsey never fought anyone near the level of competition that Ali did...

- Robby, laddie, son, nobody says you have to like Dempsey as a fighter, but it's never an easy thing for a sentient, intelligent being to admit he's been spouting nonsense about a topic he clearly doesn't understand.

How could Dempsey draw the colour line when he fought black fighters coming up, employed black sparring partners, and risked his belt and career by leaving the most powerful men in boxing, Kearns and Rickard to sign to fight Wills?

Did you ever stop to think that Dempsey was just as much a victim of era politics as was Ali who also risked his belt and career for making unpopular, criminally liable choices? Dempsey was seen as more of a villain as Ali was due to the way he was promoted, a big difference being that he never officially was stripped or retired as what happened to Ali. Sure, Jack made a barge load of money in Hollywood, but Ali also had it pretty cushy on the college lecture circuit compared to Joe Louis who risked live and limb in horrid conditions of WW2, or Mike Tyson who served 5 yrs of his 6 yrs away from boxing.

It's telling that 4 of perhaps the most compelling heavies in history at the top of their forms got yanked away from their careers for several years.

Did you know that as Dempsey approached his title shot, his black sparmates, Tate and later Godfrey who became contenders in their own rights, they along with Sam Langford are given the first opportunities to appear on title match undercards along side other notable names including many white era HOFers? This was Rickard doing what he could to make compelling cards and make boxing a blockbuster sport, but he feared the liability of a Wills/Dempsey fight as did era politicians who killed the fight.

Speaking of Dempsey's title fights, my friend, Dempsey came up much harder against much tougher comp than Ali did, it ain't even close there. Dempsey was 7-0, 5 KO in title matches until his met Tunney. His comp matched on a linear head to head basis whoops the socks off Ali's.

Willard vs Liston- both around the same age, but Sonny trained for a 6 rd fight. Nobody ever wore Willard out in the ring. Maybe in better condition Liston could outpoint Willard, but he ain't KOing Willard who's a bigger threat to KO Sonny. Add in Sonny's bully mentality that would melt upon meeting a man several sizes larger than he was used to.

Miske vs Liston- If they told Sonny to dive for Billy, it's all the same. Maybe Sonny could beat him, but Miske went on to beat some good era contenders, not Sonny after the rematch travesty.

Brennan vs Patterson- Brennan a cut Floyd's title comp save arguably Ingo, but no matter with Floyd's back broken. C'mon now!

Carpentier vs Chuvalo- Plenty beat George, but in a 15 rd fight against a bigger stronger, more persistent man, quite possible Georges could make a mistake, a pickem fight.

Darcy vs Cooper- Another pickem. Cooper more dangerous, but the experienced Darcy could mark him up, another pickem.

Gibbons vs London- Shutout, maybe a KO for Gibbons. Maybe London could beat Tommy's auntie Matilda.

Firpo vs Mildenberger- Mildie a bit underrated as a boxer, but he'd really beaten nobody before or since his Ali win. Prime Wild Bull run amuck would trample him, a terrible matchup for him.

Tunney vs Williams- Geez, this exercise must be quite embarrassing for Ali fans. Need we even mention the result?

Tunney vs Terrell- Two boxer/technicians. Tunney better footwork/speed, Terrell with size/reach. Most would pick Tunney, but Terrell could well prove to be difficult to score against. Lack of a KO punch pretty much dooms him as Gene more likely to KO him.

So, what you got left showing Ali's class over Dempsey is his comeback where he also enters his doddering years, something Dempsey never hit until his 80s. Rewinning the title twice hardly a compliment to Ali's career given an amateur LH with a glass jaw and IQ of a mullet embarrassed forcing him to a better effort in the rematch, but really, that was a shameful period of heavy history he ended on after such a brilliant comeback.

And now you want to compare Dempsey not carrying on after an official 83 bout career to Ali who had less than 30 pro fights when he started his comeback? Do I need to point out the obvious flaws and inequities of that position? Maybe you should ask why he couldn't match Jack's 83 bouts, or Joe's career total?

Ibro has Ali #2, and Dempsey #4, so by consensus not much separating them. I often don't agree with Ibro rankings, but at least I make a credible case why I disagree. You have made no case for your position which is your right, but let's call it like it is.

[Robinson]

BRR
Good sir, I am aware that he fought coloured men. I am refering to Dempsey
as the champion, the man that did not fight Wills among others and who instead
cashed in on his celebrity for 3 years as a modern man of the era as opposed
to being the worlds heavyweight champion.

He is a great fighter. He had a lot of attributes that I do admire. His conditioning
and raw ferocity is incredible, no doubt. He is the best of his time.

Victim of the politics of the time....could say....another fighter be considered
a victim of complex politics while holding a strap...say Larry Holmes?

In any case sitting on the title for 3 years, then or now is a poor championship
reign...however one spins it.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Victim of the politics of the time....could say....another fighter be considered
a victim of complex politics while holding a strap...say Larry Holmes?

In any case sitting on the title for 3 years, then or now is a poor championship
reign...however one spins it.

- Let us not confuse the complex national politics in the eras of Dempsey, Joe, Ali, and Mike with the very simple internal boxing politics of Mr. Larry's era.

Indeedy, and sitting on and inventing new titles to sit on for 7 yrs worse than poor, more like a travesty.

[I Feel Fine]

Ali beat five hall of fame Heavyweight champions (three who could be legitimately rated ahead of Dempsey), a couple from the lower weights (one who was ancient), defended his titles nineteen times. Dempsey beat two, had three from the lower weights, and had six defenses. Ali's non-title opposition was also better. Dempsey had more losses than Ali so we do not have to agitate ourselves pointing out all of Ali's close decision losses before turning into a boxing vegetable, three avenged. Dempsey is a great fighter but he is not a top four all time Heavyweight, in my view, regardless of what the boxing institutions might say. Forgiving Dempsey for not fighting black challengers is a generous courtesy, to say the least, that I am willing to grant, but lets not pretend then that he should be rated particularly close to Ali when even Greb would have been more deserving than Miske and Gibbons whom he had beaten.
No one ever wore out Willard in six? An old Jack Johnson failed to, though he won most of the first twenty plus rounds, but there was that Dempsey fellow who came up once or twice in this thread. Perhaps re-watching the video is in order. With a more modern ref Willard would likely be spared prolonged beating, also, unless he caught the Patterson-Johannson ref. Ali's 60s opposition is being a bit underrated, and while it was fair to single it out in the other thread since that was the focus there, we should not get into the habit of ignoring his 70s opposition for the benefit of the fighter that he is being compared to; this thread has a broader focus and Ali had a whole other career past the 60s. Ali to my knowledge had already fought Manila when this video in this thread was made.
Sanctioning body belts are a waste of mental energy. Holmes was the champion, regardless of WBC and IBF belts. And, not that we do not already know this, but those who mention Ali's loss to Spinks are looking for attention, to annoy people, and are not here for serious analysis.

[granberry]

Ali quit like a dog against Larry Holmes.

Did Dempsey ever quit like that, even when old?

Ali wanted to quit in his first fight with Liston and had had to be pushed out by his cornermen.

Did Dempsey's cornermen ever have to push him when he wanted to quit?

Ali lost his title to a novice who only had 7 professional fights.

Did Dempsey ever lose his title to a novice who only had 7 professional fights?

Ali fought weak chinned Ken Norton for 49 rounds and never scored a knockdown.

How long would Norton have lasted with Dempsey? LOL

Ali's fights with Liston are known to be fakes.

Was Dempsey's winning of his title a fake on Willard's part?

Ali lost a number of fights in his career where he was then awarded a decision "win."

Name the fights where Dempsey kept his title on a decision in a fight that he obviously lost.

I reaalize that Thomas Hauser does not allow you to hear such things.

[I Feel Fine]

Dempsey would not have to quit against Foreman and Liston, because they would have stopped him. Dempsey with a hole in his membrane and with Parkinsons coming off a retirement at 38 and weight drained would likely quit against Holmes, unlike Ali who did not quit but who was stopped by his corner. Ali was trying to get Liston DQ'd, he was not quitting, and anyone who calls the first fight a fake has no business talking boxing history. Dempsey threw a fight, which apparently does not bring his other fights into question, which I think is fair enough, so lets not try that with Liston when he was clearly trying to score a knockout and hit Clay about as hard as he hit Patterson.
But, good thinking guys, why poison the well individually when you can do it together. We all know that you two are putting on an act, you might as well do it in tandem.

[Collins2000]

Ali quit like a dog against Larry Holmes.

Did Dempsey ever quit like that, even when old?

Ali wanted to quit in his first fight with Liston and had had to be pushed out by his cornermen.

Did Dempsey's cornermen ever have to push him when he wanted to quit?

Ali lost his title to a novice who only had 7 professional fights.

Did Dempsey ever lose his title to a novice who only had 7 professional fights?

Ali fought weak chinned Ken Norton for 49 rounds and never scored a knockdown.

How long would Norton have lasted with Dempsey? LOL

Ali's fights with Liston are known to be fakes.

Was Dempsey's winning of his title a fake on Willard's part?

Ali lost a number of fights in his career where he was then awarded a decision "win."

Name the fights where Dempsey kept his title on a decision in a fight that he obviously lost.

I reaalize that Thomas Hauser does not allow you to hear such things.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ali beat five hall of fame Heavyweight champions (three who could be legitimately rated ahead of Dempsey), a couple from the lower weights (one who was ancient), defended his titles nineteen times. Dempsey beat two, had three from the lower weights, and had six defenses. Ali's non-title opposition was also better. Dempsey had more losses than Ali so we do not have to agitate ourselves pointing out all of Ali's close decision losses before turning into a boxing vegetable, three avenged. Dempsey is a great fighter but he is not a top four all time Heavyweight, in my view, regardless of what the boxing institutions might say. Forgiving Dempsey for not fighting black challengers is a generous courtesy, to say the least, that I am willing to grant, but lets not pretend then that he should be rated particularly close to Ali when even Greb would have been more deserving than Miske and Gibbons whom he had beaten.
No one ever wore out Willard in six? An old Jack Johnson failed to, though he won most of the first twenty plus rounds, but there was that Dempsey fellow who came up once or twice in this thread. Perhaps re-watching the video is in order. With a more modern ref Willard would likely be spared prolonged beating, also, unless he caught the Patterson-Johannson ref. Ali's 60s opposition is being a bit underrated, and while it was fair to single it out in the other thread since that was the focus there, we should not get into the habit of ignoring his 70s opposition for the benefit of the fighter that he is being compared to; this thread has a broader focus and Ali had a whole other career past the 60s. Ali to my knowledge had already fought Manila when this video in this thread was made.
Sanctioning body belts are a waste of mental energy. Holmes was the champion, regardless of WBC and IBF belts. And, not that we do not already know this, but those who mention Ali's loss to Spinks are looking for attention, to annoy people, and are not here for serious analysis.

~ HO~HO, feeling a bit insecure over the merits of your boy now, eh?

The thread is about Ali's opinion on Dempsey in a Cosell special where he also evaluates other champions on video, not Ali's ranking my silly little friend. First Robby and now you feel the need to big up Ali's career to give his opinion more credibility, when regardless of his ranking in the pantheon of the greats and his ring acumen, he's a blithering ninny when it comes to ranking other historical fighters.

I merely pointed out the fallacy of Robby's opinions using a direct lineal comparison of first title matches as a point of comparison and other salient facts. Here's another point of comparison with Dempsey, but really, with any who held the title. Where in heavy history, indeed, in fight history, has there ever been a champion bookended by the most abysmal farces in history, Liston, Spinks and Holmes?

I would also point out that Ali's opposition advantage over Dempsey only comes during his comeback where it's no coincidence that all 5 of his losses occur, 5 losses that could easily be 8-9 losses by public consensus. As far as video goes, we have Jack in his full 24 yr old pomp to his early 30s comeback as he transitions into a final 83 fight career, a straight up ferocious warrior. We never see the pitiable performance of a Buster Mathis fight, or being out clowned by Wepner and Young and beaten up by Norton, Shavers, and yes, it must be mentioned, Leon beat up the undisputed heavy of the world, probably the biggest disgrace in boxing.

So, why nobody yet that I recall on this forum has actually challenged the veracity of Ali's #2 Ibro ranking, you'd best STFU about Ali lest some more influential folks than I start to reevaluate his Ibro ranking thanks to your weak efforts. Your limited criticisms of Dempsey don't hold water any more than Ali's boneheaded efforts either.

You should be insecure, very insecure.

[Robinson]

Ali quit like a dog against Larry Holmes.

Did Dempsey ever quit like that, even when old?

Ali wanted to quit in his first fight with Liston and had had to be pushed out by his cornermen.

Did Dempsey's cornermen ever have to push him when he wanted to quit?

Ali lost his title to a novice who only had 7 professional fights.

Did Dempsey ever lose his title to a novice who only had 7 professional fights?

Ali fought weak chinned Ken Norton for 49 rounds and never scored a knockdown.

How long would Norton have lasted with Dempsey? LOL

Ali's fights with Liston are known to be fakes.

Was Dempsey's winning of his title a fake on Willard's part?

Ali lost a number of fights in his career where he was then awarded a decision "win."

Name the fights where Dempsey kept his title on a decision in a fight that he obviously lost.

I reaalize that Thomas Hauser does not allow you to hear such things.

Would Ali have been KOd by Jim Flynn in a round ? or.... as many here
have hinte...thrown the fight against Flynn ?

How many MWs did Dempsey fight ?

[Robinson]

BRR


I have not 'built up' Ali to bring down Dempsey. I was merely pointing
out the knocks against Dempsey...yes he was great and is a legend of
boxing. BUT he still has his faults as a fighter and champion (as they
all do).

Now to suggest that Willard was a better....er championship 'bookend',
than Liston is your own agenda. The fact remains and always shall, that
Ali...love him or hate him...had one of, if not the best defences compared
to other champions.....his second reign is by far the more stacked.

Would you be interested in running your comparison of Dempsey's opponent
vs Ali's 1977-1978 title challengers ?
I do genuinely enjoy them, even if I do not agree with how you see the
fights playing out.

And back to the original thread, I would always rather listen to the opinions
of men who fight, especially a champion like Ali than those who write books
or sit on the side lines and merely watch. Fighters will always see things
that armchair heroes do not. That is a fact that the Hauser's, Sugar's etc
will never appreciate.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Only a matter of time before Broughton & Gran's collective stupidity converged in an assault on Ali.

Still, one, I find entertaining (albeit, infuriating at times). The other, his name is Broughton. Fool.

[Robinson]

I do not think he is a fool. He just has a differing opinion. I am interested
in hearing it. Though I do not always agree with it.

Granberry seems to get flustered and seldom posts with any real structure
outside his blind dislike for Ali.


Once again I shall ask, as I do value his opinion on the matter...

Granberry,

Who would win.....peak for peak 15 rounds. Harold Johnson vs Jimmy Young

[Collins2000]

I do not think he is a fool. He just has a differing opinion. I am interested
in hearing it. Though I do not always agree with it.

Looks like you respect crankberry a lot more than he respects you Kym.

Why, only last week he was sneering at your views.

And he seems very wary of your motives. Perhaps he has been hurt in the past by silver-tongued charmers.

Have you tried PM?

[Collins2000]

I know he collects photos of young lads with muscular backs so if you have any of those you might be able to coax him into a bit of dialogue...

[I Feel Fine]

Some believe the earth is 6,000 years old. Some believe Dempsey had a better resume than Ali. What can you do. Dempsey was not book ended by someone like Holmes, true, neither did he ever fight someone as good as Holmes in his entire career. Or Liston, or Frazier, or Foreman.

[Collins2000]

Expect another post of his old comic book today (complete with fresh spunk stains on Kid Azteca's head).

[Robinson]

Collins


I am just trying be nice is all. I know Granberry does not like
me, and feels I am a disciple of yours. That is fine by me, but
I am just trying to see where he is coming from.

Silver tongued ;) indeed....nah I have not PM'd the man for
some time. He does not like me any more I fear. Though I
doubt he ever did.

IFF
sadly we know what BFF and Granberry think of Holmes, so no
doubt they will tell us that Willard was a better fighter than
Holmes ever was.

[BoxBuzz]

This info orginates from TheOnion.com, a fine news organization with impeccable credentials. They recently broke the story that there has never been a moon landing. It's likely this Grubbuggyn fella is head of their sports division.. This is the real deal, and everyone on the east coast knows it.

[granberry]

Now poor Robinson is getting directions from his homosexually fixated mentor, collins.

Everyone here remembers when homosexually fixated sicko collins ran to the moderators to complain when I posted a comic book cover that featured the faces of four greats of Mexican boxing--Kid Azteca, Juan Zurita, Joe Conde, and Baby Casanova.



collins wanted the posted deleted because he thought it had nothing to do with boxing.

WHY?

Because collins never heard of Kid Azteca, Juan Zurita, Joe Conde, and Baby Casanova.

collins didn't know who they were..

And his buddy 'moderators' actually deleted the post at his direction, because they didn't know who Kid Azteca, Juan Zurita, Joe Conde, and Baby Casanova were either.

[Robinson]

Granberry

I am not taking directions from Collins200, nor has he mentored me in
anything least of all homosexual Ali loving.

I just share a different opinion with you on most things. That does not
mean I am not interested in discussing boxing here with you. After all
it is why we keep returning isn't it.
The trouble is you very very very seldom want to discuss it any more
and seem more interested in repeating yourself ad naseum with the
same cut and paste job. But feel free to call me a gaybo or what have
you. It does not bother me in the least. As you know you will always
have a special place in my heart....;)

[Collins2000]

Now poor Robinson is getting directions from his homosexually fixated mentor, collins.

Watch out Kym!

Crankberry is cummin after ya!

[granberry]

I
Granberry,

Who would win.....peak for peak 15 rounds. Harold Johnson vs Jimmy Young

Robinson,

You will have to depend on your homosexually fixated mentor, collins for your "information' on Harold Johnson and Jimmy Young.

I knew both of them well for a number of years.

I watched a number of fights with Johnson, and with me he discussed a large number of his fights in detail. I have notebook full of his counters to each and every thing an opponent could do.

I knew Jimmy Young well from the time of his first win over Ron Lyle until he started taking drugs and lost it all.

I would never post a word of the valuable material I could from those two good friends of mine

because we all know well that the procedure on boxrec,
obviously with the 'moderators' full approval, is for your homosexually fixated mentor, collins, to appear and trash the thread immediately with his sicko trash.

I would not besmirch the priceless info I have on a site like this.

You have made your bed, Robinson. Now lay in it.

'You will get your 'information' on Johnson and Young from your mentor.

And of course keep regurgitating the standard "Religion of Ali" Thomas Hauser talking points over and over in the years you post on this site.

What a sorry existence.

[Robinson]

That's hot on so many levels.


On another note I think we should score Ali-Norton II.
I am curious to see how everyone had that scored, and
seeing as it has been a point of contention here and
else where...I figure lets have it out ! :)

[Robinson]

I
Granberry,

Who would win.....peak for peak 15 rounds. Harold Johnson vs Jimmy Young

Robinson,

You will have to depend on your homosexually fixated mentor, collins for your "information' on Harold Johnson and Jimmy Young.

I knew both of them well for a number of years.

I watched a number of fights with Johnson, and with me he discussed a large number of his fights in detail. I have notebook full of his counters to each and every thing an opponent could do.

I knew Jimmy Young well from the time of his first win over Ron Lyle until he started taking drugs and lost it all.

I would never post a word of the valuable material I could from those two good friends of mine

because we all know well that the procedure on boxrec,
obviously with the 'moderators' full approval, is for your homosexually fixated mentor, collins, to appear and trash the thread immediately with his sicko trash.

I would not besmirch the priceless info I have on a site like this.

You have made your bed, Robinson. Now lay in it.

'You will get your 'information' on Johnson and Young from your mentor.

And of course keep regurgitating the standard "Religion of Ali" Thomas Hauser talking points over and over in the years you post on this site.

What a sorry existence.

It is because I am aware of your friendships of these men that I asked.
I have several fights of Johnson on film and I am in awe of his talent,
and for you to have called him a friend is an honour no doubt.

I am no fan of Hauser, nor do a subscribe to any religion, except perhaps
the one of Holmes - ism. In any case, I am interested in discussing and
learning about boxing from you, or whomever. The trouble is you get some
what serpic if some one has a differing view, or should I say if your view
differs from the norm.

You say I have laid my bed, then I shall lay in it...then so be it. Rest assured
no man shares my bed ;)

I just hope that the Johnson note book you have does not perish in time, to be
lost as you clutch on to it, perhaps taking it to the grave with a sour bitterness
in spite of the 'boxing' world, a world you seem to love./...yet hate.

All I have asked is that you say who you think would win....nothing more...
nothing less.

Take care....don't become to consumed with hate and resentment.