Toney fights tonight, down to 217lb

[Mensa07]

Thoughts on JT's latest comeback? Hate to say it but I think this might turn out like Chris Byrd, James is just that old now I think the weight loss might hurt him. Even down at 217lb I can't see him looking as sharp as he did against Holyfield, Jirov, etc.

He talks in the interview about a mini-tourney between himself, Roy and Hopkins. Even at their age (collectively... over 120??), I'd still like to see it!

http://www.fight hype.com

[hitman_hatton1]

217.

i'm stunned he's shifted it.

too little too late.

he had all the momentum after holyfield and become a fat c*nt again.

[Rocky Balboa]

Toney was a very talented fighter, but clearly, his lack of discipline & professionaoism has cost him dearly! Hopkins & Jones are a lot higher than JT on the all-time great list! Shame, because Toney should have been right up there!

[alexpaterson]

Toney was a very talented fighter, but clearly, his lack of discipline & professionaoism has cost him dearly! Hopkins & Jones are a lot higher than JT on the all-time great list! Shame, because Toney should have been right up there!

Totally agree with a bit of discipline he could of been great

[TerribleTerry]

One of my all time favourite fighters. He had the talent, technique and attitude but lacked the discipline to apply his ability to its full potential. Now he is too old and it is too late to turn back the clock. All that said, I will still be downloading this fight tomorrow to see how James looks!

[funso banjo baby]

not british

[TerribleTerry]

not british

That is one of the most accurate posts you have made in over 2700 attempts Funso

[funso banjo baby]

i saw the oppurtunity and i was in

[chinny]

Will avoid the reuslt and download this one. Toney is easily one of the most talented boxers to have graced the sport. It would be nice if he wasn't a complete nutcase but a sedate Toney may not have been the Toney we know and love, if that makes sense.

makes perfect sense

[Bomber 1]

James Toney is possibly the most gifted fighter of his generation BUT also is probably the one who also lacks the most discipline too :( The guy is a freak, I just hope he don't get hurt through boxing!! I really thought after he done Jirov he was gonna knuckle down BUT it seems after he has a big win he just leaves and has crazy blowouts!! :(

What this guy could have achieved is remarkable but Im sorry to say he'll be more remembered for what he hasn't achieved than what he has achieved.. Oh well I just hope he stays healthy..

[Carbo]

Toney was outstanding, but I wonder whether some people here aren't overrating him just a little.

He won the middleweight title against Michael Nunn, who was on the pound for pound list and I think at the time unbeaten in 30, which on paper is a fantastic win, but he was being thoroughly outboxed, I seem to remember, by Nunn -- he couldn't find a way past the jab -- until he found the single KO very late in the fight, by which stage I remember Toney looking pretty desperate and ragged.

And, while it might be down to weight, Toney was good, but not overwealmingly spectacular in his defences. Part of that must be the quality of the opposition, but he struggled terribly in two fights against a past it Mike McCallum, and against was smashed to pieces, losing every round and (definitely, no matter what anyone says) getting knocked down -- although again, losing a stone and a half, according to most estimates, on the week of the fight, clearly had an effect in that affair.

That's not to say it was a bad reign, because it was very good, and Toney deserved his place near the top of the tree in the P4P rankings at the time. And he did produce one of my all time favourite displays of accurate, withering counterpunching in his fight against Barkley -- the highlight of which was a moment when he sat on the ropes rolling and ducking to avoid wild but numerous combinations before coming back with a sensational combination to knock down -- and I think out -- Barkley.

And, of course, he was sensational in beating Jirov and Holyfield, but good as Jirov was, he wasn't an outstanding fighter, and Holyfield was long, long gone.

But for how long was Toney considered pound for pound? His reign at middle and super middle was very good, but not brilliant, and then he dropped away dramatically after the Jones fight, floundering at 175 and walking the path toward a career as Butterbean's warm up man, before reemerging under Joe Goosen for two fights in which he looked superb, and then patchy performance at heavyweight thereafter.

So, yes, a tremendous talent, yes a hall of fame lock, yes a little bit of discipline out of the ring would have helped, but I think saying he's the most talented man of the last 20 years is too much. Not even in the top 5, I would say.

[hitman_hatton1]

bit off base on some of that carbo.

agree with your essential point though.

toney gets this mad respect he doesn't always deserve.

seems to get forgotten that he went on the club circuit for half a decade after losing to montell griffin twice running.

[Carbo]

bit off base on some of that carbo.

agree with your essential point though.

toney gets this mad respect he doesn't always deserve.

seems to get forgotten that he went on the club circuit for half a decade after losing to montell griffin twice running.

The thing is, Toney was an excellent fighter, but he wasn't an all time great, I don't think. He fell short. Talent-wise he had a lot, and he might have gotten to all time great if he'd have had even half of Hopkins' discipline.

But when we have Roy Jones, Floyd Mayweather, Whitaker, Meldrick Taylor, Ricard Lopez and many, many others, was he really the most talented of his era?

I wonder, just to be controversial, if Guzman reemerged in about three of years at welter, took three or four gimmie fights to get him back in the game, then beat Berto in an exciting give and take match, before stepping up to 154 and beating up a well past it Miguel Cotto, whether we wouldn't have someone just like Toney.

And would Guzman, having done that, be "the most talented fighter of his era"?

I don't know why, but it seems to be human nature to overestimate "potential", underestimate the rarity and value of devotion, and value the combination of perceived talent and potential over the combination of hard work and cast iron achievement.

It's that aspect of not knowing, with Toney, and the assumption that if he'd been disciplined, he would have made standard the glimpses of genius he showed, and performances in the fights in which he was in tip top shape would have become the norm. That's not necessarily (or, in actuality, likely to be) the case, but the fact his gluttony prevented us from knowing gives us an opportunity to indulge in wishful thinking.

[Bomber 1]

JUdging him on pure talent he's unreal.. There was nothing the guy couldn't do.. He wouldn't train or live properly yet still managed to shine from time to time against top fighters.. I don't think he's THE most talented cos I feel that lies with Matweather or Jones Jr but I just feel he's up there. I'd have loved to have put Evander Holyfield's desire & Dedication with James Toney's skills!! That would be one helluva fighter.. It's a shame but I guess there plenty of other names who also deserve a mention too ala Whitaker, Meldrick Taylor and so on so on..

[Carbo]

Toney was outstanding, but I wonder whether some people here aren't overrating him just a little.

He won the middleweight title against Michael Nunn, who was on the pound for pound list and I think at the time unbeaten in 30, which on paper is a fantastic win, but he was being thoroughly outboxed, I seem to remember, by Nunn -- he couldn't find a way past the jab -- until he found the single KO very late in the fight, by which stage I remember Toney looking pretty desperate and ragged.

And, while it might be down to weight, Toney was good, but not overwealmingly spectacular in his defences. Part of that must be the quality of the opposition, but he struggled terribly in two fights against a past it Mike McCallum, and against was smashed to pieces, losing every round and (definitely, no matter what anyone says) getting knocked down -- although again, losing a stone and a half, according to most estimates, on the week of the fight, clearly had an effect in that affair.

That's not to say it was a bad reign, because it was very good, and Toney deserved his place near the top of the tree in the P4P rankings at the time. And he did produce one of my all time favourite displays of accurate, withering counterpunching in his fight against Barkley -- the highlight of which was a moment when he sat on the ropes rolling and ducking to avoid wild but numerous combinations before coming back with a sensational combination to knock down -- and I think out -- Barkley.

And, of course, he was sensational in beating Jirov and Holyfield, but good as Jirov was, he wasn't an outstanding fighter, and Holyfield was long, long gone.

But for how long was Toney considered pound for pound? His reign at middle and super middle was very good, but not brilliant, and then he dropped away dramatically after the Jones fight, floundering at 175 and walking the path toward a career as Butterbean's warm up man, before reemerging under Joe Goosen for two fights in which he looked superb, and then patchy performance at heavyweight thereafter.

So, yes, a tremendous talent, yes a hall of fame lock, yes a little bit of discipline out of the ring would have helped, but I think saying he's the most talented man of the last 20 years is too much. Not even in the top 5, I would say.

Got to disagree. He didn't just throw a home run against Nunn. Toney was landing body shots throughout the fight. He boxed within himself and with serene confidence that Nunn would tire. Nunn did tire, and Toney took him out with impunity. Given Nunn's stature at the time it was a massive result and too many people put it down as a fluke, Toney earned that win.

The first McCallum fight saw him take on a slower Mike, but McCallum implemented Futch's plan to perfection that night, the one that Jones would later have the youth and athleticism to use against Toney. Stepping off when Toney rolls, hitting him with a hooked left and not letting him build off the jab.

Mike did this but, technician that he was, still used the jab too frequently, and Toney broke through, carrying rounds big when it mattered. His stamina was clearly poop, but he sucked it up and carried the last round big to get a draw in what was the fight of that year, or one of them. Hagler was at ringside to award a trophy to the winner, his supposed successor, and he complemented them both on the display.

Toney was floored against Johnson, and then regrouped to get a deserved decision. Reggie was a decent operator for years after this fight.

In one year alone, 1992 I think, Toney defeated Merqui Sosa, Michael Nunn, drew with McCallum, and squeezed out one or two more wins. They kept him fighting all the time in a desperate battle to keep his weight down, and Toney breezed through many fights, but may have been more jaded than we thought by the weight issues. I’ve got his in-betweener fights and the guy was basically coasting throughout many of the rounds, but still looked better than many fighters out there.

They say that he lost 12-14 lbs in the 24-hours leading up to the Jones weigh in, and had to be put onto an IV drop after 'making' the weight. Given how good Jones was at that time - he was seen as the huge puncher on the basis of the Tate massacre - it says a lot about Toney toughness that he even managed to last the distance. The knockdown was not a big one, Toney was ducking his knees and flapping his hands, Jones clips him with a left hook and comes in at Toney, who staggers backwards and touches down in the act of propping himself up, hardly a big knockdown.

People were giving Jirov a lot of respect when he had his ‘0’; he was seen as a big proposition for Toney, a southpaw with body shots and stamina. Toney deserved the win; he also beat the poop out of the guy and arguably finished him. He battered Holyfield, who later had enough to push Valuev.

Toney also slapped the piss out of Peter in their first fight, his last big stand, and was let down by the ineptitude of the judges.

People don't overrate him, they recognise that the guy had some serious eating, and general psychological, issues but still managed to produce exquisite skills in his contests.

The phrase 'aesthetically boring' was once used to describe him, he was, but beautiful to watch, especially in Peter 1, where he stood right in front of a bigger man and whaled the piss out of him with counters. I've seen better fights, and more complete performances, but that, to me, was like watching a guy walk a high wire right before my eyes.

I F-ing love everything Toney stands for. Eubank claims to have eked it out in his fights, but Toney shouldn't have been in the ring for some of his fights, his condition was so bad, but he still got in there and made some decent guys look like complete novices.

Great post, Mr D.

First, I think I'd have to disagree with you about the Nunn fight. When did a boxer ever box with a "serene confidence" that his opponent would tire? Surely that can't be plan one: hoping the guy tires?? Sure, Toney wasn't wholly ineffective, and he did land shots, but Nunn must have had a big lead on the scorecards, and while it was clear that Toney was suddenly starting to catch up with him, he definitely needed a knockout. I understand that tiring your opponent is a key tactic in boxing, but it is surely something that (1) is one part of an overall tactic, and (2) not something you're confident about until it works out. For you to be right about this fight, it would have had to have been Toney's plan A and only plan, because God knows there wasn't so much else going on for him until about 5 minutes before the KO. It which seems to me like betting on the other guy losing rather than planning to win, and being amazingly confident he will.

Personally, I think that a guy like Toney struggles with fighters with a jab or handspeed, and excellent lateral movement. He went to the body because he couldn't get to his head, and looked serene/ineffective because he looks best when opponents come to him (Barkley, Jirov, Holyfield, Peter).

Second, it is true that Toney looked excellent in some of his defence fights -- especially the one against Barkley, which is awesome to behold, but that doesn't make his reign great. Entertaining as the first McCallum fight was, it doesn't change the fact he went to the wire with a past it fighter, and really didn't fight any other A-graders, and only one or two b-graders in the meantime.

I know this was largely down to gluttony, but there's no guarantee that he'd have been able to increase his performances markedly for every fight had he been more disciplined.

After he was beaten by Jones -- not just beaten, but hammered for every second of every round -- he declined precipitously before returning at cruiserweight and fighting probably the best cruiserwieght champion at the time. Fair play, Jirov was unbeaten, the best guy at the weight, durable, and with a superb amateur pedigree (was he olympic gold medalist?? Or perhaps it was the worlds). But, let's be honest, what did Jirov achieve since? He was battered from pillar to post by Joe Mesi -- before giving Baby Joe a brain bleed -- and then hammered by assorted other heavyweight journeymen.

Meantime, Toney beat a slow, old Holyfield -- to be sure one still good enough several years later to give the epically bad Nikolai Valuev a hard time, but still old and slow -- which was commendable, but given Holyfield's state, hardly earth shattering, and then gave the horrifically inconsistent and sometimes awful Sam Peter a losing beating.

So, I'd say, on balance, that he's a lock for first ballot entry into the hall of fame, which makes his career superb, but not someone I'd call one of the true greats of the last 15 years. I love the guy, and I could sit and watch him box for days on end, because the way he boxed was truly beautiful, but I have to view him objectively.

[Autobarn]

Toney certainly deserves to be in the HOF for his fearless attitude, for brief moments of brilliance in his career, for winning a couple of great fights (jirov and nunn) and for winning titles at three weights thanks to brilliant counter punching skills.

I feel he broke Nunn down methodically. He was a bit raw but he wore Nunn down. He did what he had to do, he overcame a big crisis and stopped an excellent boxer.

But his lakc of discipline at the time of such a big fight - Jones Jr - is shocking, unbelievable. And then to drop the ball again once he was back, muscling up, injuries, steroids, obesity - I have to say i was gutted by all this, as he was a compelling fighter.

[Carbo]

He was landing lots of body shots, they were behind his confidence. If you are in-close with a guy and feel his strength sapping then surely that is a basis for confidence? Especially if the body shots you are landing are a big part of the reason for why the guy is tiring?

Nunn stopped moving at one point late in the fight and traded straight shots with Toney, coming off worse in the exchange, he was Toney’s from that point onwards. Couple this with the way Nunn was bullied on the ropes, and almost over them, and you have more than a vague hope that a guy will tire, you have someone working the body, taking the play away and generally knowing the game well enough to believe that the man will go when the time comes. The time came and Toney took the KO brilliantly.

We’ll have to fundamentally disagree if you think that there was nothing going for Toney in that prior to the five minutes before the end. Nunn looked a done deal when he allowed Toney to half-bully him over the ropes. Body shots, pressure and a will to win got Toney that result, similar to the Chavez-Taylor fight, Chavez won it late, sure, but does that mean that nothing was happening for him prior to the late surge? Taylor was busted up facially, Nunn was hammered to the body, his weight problems were well documented and Toney forced his style onto Nunn, who changed tack as the fight progressed. Sure, Nunn was ahead on the cards but the cards are tallied after the bell goes for the final round, unless you box under open scoring the cards are irrelevant until that final bell goes.

Ha! How interesting. I was reading your first two paragraphs and thought "you know, it's about six years since I saw this fight, and I've only seen it once, so maybe I'll go back and revisit; perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps I'll go back and it'll be like Chavez -- Taylor," and then there you go and say exactly that. I tell you what. I'll bow to your view, with doubts, and rewatch it at the first opportunity.

Toney does struggle with lateral movement. Yet he defeated Nunn, a mover, by slowing him down, overcame Johnson, who moved well, and generally fared well against movers until losing to an absolute peak Roy Jones. This after shifting over a stone in weight the day before the weigh in, which is hardly a major crime.

No one’s saying that Toney is an all-time great, not that I’ve seen on this thread, but we are saying that he had fantastic ability and skills, and that is a fair statement to make based on what he could do in the ring when fully fit and focussed. He did beat A-grade guys, men like McCallum (good enough to win titles post-Toney, and was who was not disgraced by Jones at LHW), Nunn and Holyfield.

Jirov was looking very good pre-Toney, then he gets hammered to the canvas in the final round, is left bewildered and bruised and moves up in weight, and you say that his subsequent bad form is wholly independent of what Toney did to him? Yet Toney loses every round to Jones and falls into a pit of bad form and worse living, and this is somehow a testament to how badly Jones beat him? Why not apply the same thinking to Toney-Jirov? Toney ruined Jirov, people quibble over the decision but he visibly reduced a big, strong and skilful boxer to ruins that night (who had the supposed-Kryptonite of body shots). You could say that the post-fight fade of Jirov is evidence that he wasn’t much to start with, but his pre-Toney fights show that he had a lot and that Toney took a lot from him.

Holyfield was old, he was slow, and he was finished in the eyes of many, but he is still hanging in with decent fighters, Toney demolished him, giving him a worse beating than Lewis and Bowe did, and guess what? Holy was said to be slow, old and was finished when Lewis and Bowe (in the rubbermatch) defeated him. Toney didn’t just happen to be there when Holyfield fell over, he put him over and battered him in a way that we’ve not seen before nor since.

Standing in front of Rahman, who KO’d Lewis, Peter, who bounced Wlad around, Ruiz, who is grimly effective and Holyfield adds to Toney’s mystique, in my mind. Here is a guy with tiny fists who stands right in front of bigger men and has it out with them. He doesn’t hand pick opponents and then skate about the ring picking up points. I like him for the same reasons I like John Murray, different styles but that same ethos, knowledge that you need to be in front of your guy in order to have the best chance of landing shots. It is thrilling edge of the razorblade stuff.

No one is saying that Toney is ATG #1; we’re just admiring a guy who had a stellar career despite his own destructive faults. Jones may be remembered with more esteem but we never saw Toney unconscious in the ring, we never saw Toney blasted out by a single shot.

For my money, Toney is looked on so fondly because he actually embodies what boxing is about. It is all about hitting your opponent cleanly in the target/scoring areas, not using movement to create as much space as possible before diving in for quick raids, often non-scoring raids. It gets depressing when you see these athletic guys (Tim Bradley springs to mind, god-awful boxer but able to get in and around the top) win titles on the basis that they throw a lot of leather, we’re seeing an increase in athleticism and a decrease in skills, so a guy like Toney gets treasured. He is boxing’s Clint Eastwood, refusing to go down the CGI route and turning out performances that have a bit of authenticity.

To return to the Jirov fight. At one point the ring logo causes Toney to slip a little, Toney doesn’t immediately bound five paces back and gesture towards the ref. He was in the process of moving forward to throw a shot, his leading leg slips a little, his stance widens, so he just adjusts his shoulders, takes another half-step inside, and whacks Jirov with a few shots. Little things like that, or when he was in-close with Holyfield, who was stronger than him, and he slipped his hand onto Holy’s left bicep to kill the left hook before it even started.

In a few years, when we are watching two athletes throw badly-picked shots while the judges just sit there counting, we’ll look on Toney fondly, but with perspective, and I think that is what people have been doing on this thread. Talking objectively about a what could have been, not making big statements about Toney's status.

I find it difficult to disagree with much you're saying here, and I suspect we might be trying to calculate how many angels can dance on the tip of a pin, here, because I think the difference between our views is actually insignificant.

I just got the impression that people here were getting a little over hyped about Toney's ability, and potential. I think Toney had a pretty exceptional career, and that he deserves great credit.

I just wouldn't put him quite up on the very top tier of the last 20 years.

Meantime, I think the McCallum - Jones fight is mitigated by Jones's virtual hero worship of the Body Snatcher and having one of those nights where he really didn't want to devastate. On Jirov, it was certainly a the biggest cruiserweight fight since Holyfield moved up, and I remember being tremendously excited before, and genuinely thrilled at the outcome of what was a brilliant fight and performance by Toney.

Certainly, the (competitive) beating Toney gave Jirov could be said to have effected him, but by the same token, I'm not sure that that victory -- beating the best of a very weak division, who didn't do anything after that, irrespective of reason -- can quite drag him into the very top tier. Even if we say that Jirov was ruined by Toney, can we put that win higher than Calzaghe's against Lacy? Perhaps a little because Calzaghe was at his weight, but I think these are things to bear in mind.

If Toney had achieved what he did by fighting like Jake La Motta, I'm not sure we would rate him at all, but he was just sublime to watch, so we do.

Anyway, like I say, I love Toney and do rate him, but just not as high as he rates himself, or as high as the (perhaps mistaken) impression I got of people here.

[TerribleTerry]

For those who want to reminisce and see a prime Toney performance again:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=9WEYQ8EA



(Credit for link goes to the Fight Franchise forum - a great on line resource)

[Autobarn]

It would have been great if Toney had stayed at cruiser. OK he got some heavyweight paydays, and these are always tempting. But he parried all those heavy shots from big men - side of head, arms, top of head, etc - and this accumulates considerable damage. And now his career is on the tattered fringes.

I think his heavyweight dream was always folly,. I like many wanted to believe in him. But there's not a chance in the world he'd have competed with the K2 diplomats. He's far too small and he's not effective enough coming forward, not on those legs which were looking a tad old in the Jirov fight.

Cruiserweight was a good division. There aren't great paydays at cruiserweight, but ironically Toney could have kept a good career. He could have done the one thing he never did, perhaps - that is, be consistently good.

Jirov was good. He "only" had 6 title defenses, but also many non title bouts in between. In other words he actually did do a fair bit at cruiser, and was very exciting to watch at a time when ppl want to believe in Eurasians, Russians, etc.

Cruiserweight had not only Jirov, who ruined his own career by chasing Toney up to heavyweight, but also the excellent (at 190-pounds) Juan Carlos Gomez. Wayne Braithwaite, in his heyday, would have made for a great TV fight - a gobby puncher. Mormeck was at his peak, O'Neil Bell was on the way up, and I believe "Konkrete" Kelvin Davis - another exciting TV fighter - was Toney's IBF mandatory! I believe Toney would have been in some wars, and could have been part of good times in an exciting division.

[TerribleTerry]

Ha! How interesting. I was reading your first two paragraphs and thought "you know, it's about six years since I saw this fight, and I've only seen it once, so maybe I'll go back and revisit; perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps I'll go back and it'll be like Chavez -- Taylor," and then there you go and say exactly that. I tell you what. I'll bow to your view, with doubts, and rewatch it at the first opportunity.

No need to get out dusty cardboard boxes full of VHS tapes to track this fight down Carbo - watch it here:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=41INF0S0

(all credit to uploader 'jakkups' at Fight Franchise)

[matko]

I know glen "big bad" wolfe wasnt a great but check the performance toney put in against him when defending his belt, i think it was punch perfect for 12 rounds, his knock out of prince charles williams is another great finsh like the nunn fight!!!
Nunn was unbeaten when toney fought him too, beaten frank tate, kalambay(1st round), starling, roldan, barkley, curry etc and who boxed on only losing 3 more fights against top competition.
Toney was an awesome fighter just lacked discipline but when he was prepared who was like poetry in motion 1 of the best defensive fighters of our era, it shows as he went up too heavy and still held his own, 1 of my fave fighters!!!

[dondada]

For those who want to reminisce and see a prime Toney performance again:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=9WEYQ8EA



(Credit for link goes to the Fight Franchise forum - a great on line resource)

Absolute class.

[mahatma]

when johnny tapia boxed at york hall a few years back, his trainer was eddie mustafa muhammad.Tapia trained at the peacock gym before the fight eddie mustafa muhammad told me that toney was far and away the most natural fighter he had trained

[matko]

anyone got the link to last nights fight??

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

For those who want to reminisce and see a prime Toney performance again:

http://www.megavideo.com/?d=9WEYQ8EA



(Credit for link goes to the Fight Franchise forum - a great on line resource)

- Holy Sherlock, Watson!!! Here I tune in to investigate the latest merged and supermerged Fury/McD threads, only to spot this Sunday devotional to James Too Fat Toney.

What else can you call a "prime" Toney beating up on a weight drained, one eyed, Duran leftover Barkley?

Thought the Brits were endowed by their Creator with an innate sense of fairplay. Instead, if Mr. Toney ever decides to come out of the closet, the U of K appears to be the place to be.

Need to give thanks to the Almighty for not putting him in the ring with a past it Duran who would've knocked all the fat off him before making a lean cuisine picnic of him.

Speaking of of lean and 217, sure sounds like he's back on his stanazol vitamins again. Nice poster though. Classic period piece. Maybe we'll be further graced with a newly buffed out Toney poster, ya think?