Jimmy Ellis as Linear Champion?

[Mr E]

Curious what the folks here think about this.

At the time of the WBA tournament, Ali was not allowed to fight and had, in fact, formally announced his retirement from the ring. The WBA put together a tournament to determine Ali's successor and invited all the top heavyweights not named Ali to participate, with just one exception: Sonny Liston (presumably due to Liston's connections to organized crime).

Joe Frazier declined to participate.

The tournament was conducted and Ellis scored 3 upsets in a row (Martin, Bonavena, Quarry) to take the crown.

With Ali, Liston (pre Leotis Martin fight), and Frazier still out there, nobody really thought Ellis was the best heavyweight in the world but his claim to the legitimate title, given Ali's retirement and Frazier's refusal to participate, is not COMPLETELY illegitimate, especially considering that we know it retrospect, based on the Martin result, that Liston was further past his prime then people realized..

Interesting topic, I think. Not sure how I come out.

[The Great John L]

He won a legitimate tournament of all the top HWs to replace Ali, beating 3 world class Hws. Of course he deserved to be called champion.

[I Feel Fine]

I go back and forth on this since Frazier was not involved in the tournament and was a significant rival claimant, but I suppose Ellis was.

[raylawpc]

He was the World Boxing Association Heavyweight Champion - no more, no less.

[BoxBuzz]

Why did Frazier abstain again, I forget, was it WBC loyalty? Or dictates of management? Or was it more sinister? Let the other guys take the beatings....I'll wait for the winner? In that case he was just plain smart.

[raylawpc]

Why did Frazier abstain again, I forget, was it WBC loyalty? Or dictates of management? Or was it more sinister? Let the other guys take the beatings....I'll wait for the winner? In that case he was just plain smart.

The WBA signed with a particular promotional group to promote its tournament. The purses for the fighters were set in advance and increased as one moved through the tournament. The winner was committed to fight for that promoter for two years. Yank Durham stated that he did not like either the purses (they were pretty enemic) or committing his fighter to a particular promoter for two years.

As I recall, that was one reason why Ellis only defended his title only once during his reign as WBA champion, and also why it took two years for him and Frazier to meet. Frazier would not fight Ellis for the challenger's end of the purse, and they had to wait until Ellis' contractual obligation ended before they could put the fight together.

Durham knew that eventually the tournament winner would have to fight Frazier.

I'm going by memory here, but I think I'm correct.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The tournament was conducted and Ellis scored 3 upsets in a row (Martin, Bonavena, Quarry) to take the crown.

With Ali, Liston (pre Leotis Martin fight), and Frazier still out there, nobody really thought Ellis was the best heavyweight in the world but his claim to the legitimate title, given Ali's retirement and Frazier's refusal to participate, is not COMPLETELY illegitimate, especially considering that we know it retrospect, based on the Martin result, that Liston was further past his prime then people realized..

- Probably because Sonny was 3-4 yrs older than advertised. Doubt Martin would be a contender today, but Sonny earned him a place in the Ring greatest 100 puncher's list, something like 69th or so.

Also, it was decisions over Bonavena and Quarry that made me feel like the organizers wanted Ali's team member installed as champ. Seems Ellis was involved in almost as many controversial wins as Ali.

The whole of the world was imploding, so the tournament may have been a good idea, but not many were watching or talking. Frazier made me sit up and take notice and quickly established himself, so that was the end. Not ripping on Ellis as a fighter mind you, nor did I see the Bonavena fight and only clips of the Quarry fight, but that was my impression as a kid of the tourney being politics.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Yes. I recognise him in the lineage.

If Frazier (or his management, more to the point) didn't wanna play ball at that point, then I'm not going to unfairly hold that against Ellis. I think John L summed up Ellis' actual in-ring efforts quite nicely, & the fact that he came to possess the title which was formerly the property of the linear champ doesn't hurt his case.

[yancey]

Why did Frazier abstain again, I forget, was it WBC loyalty? Or dictates of management? Or was it more sinister? Let the other guys take the beatings....I'll wait for the winner? In that case he was just plain smart.

The WBA signed with a particular promotional group to promote its tournament. The purses for the fighters were set in advance and increased as one moved through the tournament. The winner was committed to fight for that promoter for two years. Yank Durham stated that he did not like either the purses (they were pretty enemic) or committing his fighter to a particular promoter for two years.

As I recall, that was one reason why Ellis only defended his title only once during his reign as WBA champion, and also why it took two years for him and Frazier to meet. Frazier would not fight Ellis for the challenger's end of the purse, and they had to wait until Ellis' contractual obligation ended before they could put the fight together.

Durham knew that eventually the tournament winner would have to fight Frazier.

I'm going by memory here, but I think I'm correct.

Going by my memory, I'm pretty sure Ellis beat Quarry for the WBA title on 4/27/68 and Frazier consolidated the titles by knocking out Ellis on 2/16/70 so that would be a little less than two years from the WBA title fight. Otherwise, the scenario you have is pretty much as I recall it.

[raylawpc]

Except, as I recall, the two years for the eventual winner commenced at the start of the tourney in the Fall of 1967.

[yancey]

Except, as I recall, the two years for the eventual winner commenced at the start of the tourney in the Fall of 1967.

Okay, then that would make sense, though that is not what I thought you meant from your earlier post.

btw, I think another reason Ellis defended only once before meeting up with Frazier was that he took a pretty fair beating from Patterson, including a broken nose, I think, and it took him a little time to recover. Not sure, but I vaguely remember Ellis having something scheduled for the summer of '69 but it fell through.

[raylawpc]

Yes, against Henry Cooper in London, but the BBBC strangely would not sanction the fight.

[Flump]

Yes, against Henry Cooper in London, but the BBBC strangely would not sanction the fight.

Indeed, as the board were not then members of the WBA. Cooper is still furious about it, his face dropped considerably when I asked him about the situation, he was confident he would have beaten Ellis. And he gave up the British title in disgust. The fight was then scheduled for Dublin, Cooper re-injured his knee and Ellis moved on.

The board also fined Brian London for challenging Patterson for the title as he wasn't then the British champion. Now they'll sanction a bout as being for a world title with people outside the top 100. Times have certainly changed.

[klompton]

Frazier declined to compete because he was already rated as the number 1 contender and thus deserved a title shot immediately. In his mind it would set him back possibly three fights in order to get a shot at the title. So instead he took his chances with the still powerful New York commission and beat Mathis for the title which made the HW tournament less legitimate IMO and ultimately pointless when one considers that Ellis struggled over Quarry who had a broken back, got a gift decision against Patterson, and then got slaughtered by Frazier...

[sweetsci]

DID Ali formally announce his retirement prior to the WBA tourney? It's my understanding that he didn't announce his retirement until around January 1970, when Ring Magazine announced that it would recognize the winner of the then-upcoming Frazier-Ellis bout as World Champion.

'Course later in his career - 76-77-78 - he announced his retirement a few times only to be like, "I didn't mean it. I'm still champ!" So I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he did retire prior to 1970.

To get back to the original question, I consider Ellis a beltholder / title claiment and that the dispute as to who was the real champ - Frazier or Ellis - was decided in 1970 with Frazier becoming the legitimate linear World Heavyweight Champion.

[raylawpc]

Ali retired at the time of the Frazier-Ellis fight.