Smokin Joe Frazier

[hhaehre]

The question is foolish if there is no context about what he was like before.

No context ? How bout his whole 60's career. Hold any 60's Ali fight up to his performance in the first Frazier fight and you'll have your context. If you feel Ali was vastly superior in say the Terrell fight compared to his performance against Frazier in '71 then obviously he was far removed from his best on the night he fought Frazier, if not then it is reasonable to think prime Frazier vs. '67 Ali would have looked similar to their actual fight in 1971. The point is not whether Ali was better in the '70's, he clearly was not but wether it is fair to draw conclusions on a prime vs. prime fight based on their 1971 fight and I believe it is.

But of course it's pointless to discuss anything on a discussion board, unless we all agree with you that is.

[BoxBuzz]

To summarize:

Both fantastic fighters...each best of the best!. One man got the best of the other over the long haul, the other man had his day in the sun on one of the three occasions. One was knocked down along the way while one was unable to answer the final dramatic bell.

This should tell the full story for the open minded realists. There will be those with great imagination on both sides where "the reality" of the situation will not suffice. They simply pine for an alternate reality, something that serves "their guy" even better. Fact: without each other they would be half of what they became.

I'm grateful they both showed up when they did, it was great for boxing.

The part of this story that I dislike is the Trevor Berbick and Jumbo Cummings chapter. I never wanted it to end for either man.

[The Great John L]

To summarize:

Both fantastic fighters...each best of the best!. One man got the best of the other over the long haul, the other man had his day in the sun on one of the three occasions. One was knocked down along the way while one was unable to answer the final dramatic bell.

This should tell the full story for the open minded realists. There will be those with great imagination on both sides where "the reality" of the situation will not suffice. They simply pine for an alternate reality, something that serves "their guy" even better. Fact: without each other they would be half of what they became.

I'm grateful they both showed up when they did, it was great for boxing.

The part of this story that I dislike is the Trevor Berbick and Jumbo Cummings chapter. I never wanted it to end for either man.

Nice summary Buzz. That Holmes chapter was also unfortunate.

[Ezzard]

To summarize:

Both fantastic fighters...each best of the best!. One man got the best of the other over the long haul, the other man had his day in the sun on one of the three occasions. One was knocked down along the way while one was unable to answer the final dramatic bell.

This should tell the full story for the open minded realists. There will be those with great imagination on both sides where "the reality" of the situation will not suffice. They simply pine for an alternate reality, something that serves "their guy" even better. Fact: without each other they would be half of what they became.

I'm grateful they both showed up when they did, it was great for boxing.

The part of this story that I dislike is the Trevor Berbick and Jumbo Cummings chapter. I never wanted it to end for either man.

Nice one, Buzz...

Sometimes an appreciation of these greats and their great rivalry gets lost amongst the legitimate arguments.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Your argument is wrong and your arguments for your argument are incredibly ignorant. The question is when was Ali closer to his peak, in the 60s or in the early 70s, and that Chuvalo could better compare the Ali of both eras is a clear enough point, if it does not register with you that is because you are not being objective. That Ali "looked" good against Frazier does not answer the question of whether he at that stage in his career was better than he had been; the answer of the man who fought him in both eras was an emphatic "no."

Granberry > Sugar Ray Robinson

Yancey > Ingemar Johannson

HHaehre > George Chuvalo

Do me next

[I Feel Fine]

But of course it's pointless to discuss anything on a discussion board, unless we all agree with you that is.

Bullshit.

I agree with your post buzz, as I said earlier, Frazier can have his one win.

GI, I don't know, are there pro boxers with firsthand experience that you know more about boxing than?

[yancey]

Your argument is wrong and your arguments for your argument are incredibly ignorant. The question is when was Ali closer to his peak, in the 60s or in the early 70s, and that Chuvalo could better compare the Ali of both eras is a clear enough point, if it does not register with you that is because you are not being objective. That Ali "looked" good against Frazier does not answer the question of whether he at that stage in his career was better than he had been; the answer of the man who fought him in both eras was an emphatic "no."

Granberry > Sugar Ray Robinson

Yancey > Ingemar Johannson

HHaehre > George Chuvalo

BB = Larry

Collins = Moe

IFF = Curly

DD

[Collins2000]

Your argument is wrong and your arguments for your argument are incredibly ignorant. The question is when was Ali closer to his peak, in the 60s or in the early 70s, and that Chuvalo could better compare the Ali of both eras is a clear enough point, if it does not register with you that is because you are not being objective. That Ali "looked" good against Frazier does not answer the question of whether he at that stage in his career was better than he had been; the answer of the man who fought him in both eras was an emphatic "no."

Granberry > Sugar Ray Robinson

Yancey > Ingemar Johannson

HHaehre > George Chuvalo

BB = Larry

Collins = Moe

IFF = Curly

DD

yancey = Tom Driberg

[raylawpc]

yancey = Tom Driberg

[yancey]

But of course it's pointless to discuss anything on a discussion board, unless we all agree with you that is.

Bullshit.

I agree with your post buzz, as I said earlier, Frazier can have his one win.

GI, I don't know, are there pro boxers with firsthand experience that you know more about boxing than?

Gee, nice of you to grant Frazier his one win.

That win happened to be in THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY, the one where both men were nearest their peak, the one that the WHOLE FREAKING WORLD was watching, the one that COUNTED, and oh yes, the one where Ali got knocked on his ass.

DD

[I Feel Fine]

I had to google Tom Driberg to find out who he was. I don't think too many people need to google Ali-Frazier III.
I was pulling for Rafael Marquez to win the trilogy with Vazquez, Marquez was the first Bantamweight I ever paid much attention to and I followed his career closely, but you don't see me talking about how he broke Vazquez's nose and ignoring everything that came after. And, unlike Frazier, he lost the rematches on a questionable stoppage and on a questionable decision. I thought Vazquez deserved it, though, especially the decision, so you don't see me bitching. I like Vazquez and I respect his toughness. Frazier's fans need to exorcise their hatred of Ali, I have nothing but admiration for Frazier (as a boxer) but his hardcore fans are cultic in their delusions about that trilogy.

[hhaehre]

Frazier's fans need to exorcise their hatred of Ali, I have nothing but admiration for Frazier (as a boxer) but his hardcore fans are cultic in their delusions about that trilogy.

I have no argument with the result of any of the three fights but I do believe that a prime Frazier beats a prime Ali. Is that the same as hating Ali ?

[I Feel Fine]

Not necessarily. Picking prime Frazier to beat prime Ali means that you are lacking in perspective. Whether you hate Ali or not is another question.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"GI, I don't know, are there pro boxers with firsthand experience that you know more about boxing than?" - IFF

Well, I work with a fellow who just had his first pro fight who, incredibly to me, doesn't otherwise follow the sport (am I the only one who finds that odd?). Needless to say, I put more weight in my opinion than a pro fighter who doesn't know who Rafael Marquez & Israel Vazquez are.

Of course, taking your question in proper context, I see what you're saying, & I agree. Only contention I'd make is that we're all human, &, as humans, we're susceptible to bias, both obvious & nuanced, & that these flaws act independent of knowledge.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Your argument is wrong and your arguments for your argument are incredibly ignorant. The question is when was Ali closer to his peak, in the 60s or in the early 70s, and that Chuvalo could better compare the Ali of both eras is a clear enough point, if it does not register with you that is because you are not being objective. That Ali "looked" good against Frazier does not answer the question of whether he at that stage in his career was better than he had been; the answer of the man who fought him in both eras was an emphatic "no."

Granberry > Sugar Ray Robinson

Yancey > Ingemar Johannson

HHaehre > George Chuvalo

BB = Larry

Collins = Moe

IFF = Curly

DD

LOL!

[Goodnight, Irene]

Not necessarily. Picking prime Frazier to beat prime Ali means that you are lacking in perspective. Whether you hate Ali or not is another question.

I don't know about that one. I think a reasonable mind can favour Frazier, peak-for-peak. I don't, but, IMO, making the case doesn't mandate a lack of perspective. I will say there're probably a large percentage of people out there who do back Frazier over Ali, peak-for-peak, do so, if only in part, because they happen to dislike Ali.

[I Feel Fine]

Fair enough on people picking Frazier, I was generalizing a bit. And yes, the context of my rhetorical question wasn't so much to say that some random pro with one fight will know more about Johannson-Machen, what I meant was Johannson himself would.

[elmersalsa]

To me, the great Joe Frazier is one of the top 10 heavyweights and definately a top 50 all time great pound per pound. He won the biggest fight of the century.

[hhaehre]

He won the biggest fight of the century.

That he did, he won the biggest fight of Alis career. Some people don't take kindly to that fact.

[I Feel Fine]

Ali-Spinks II had bigger attendance. Manila was arguably a better fight, and captured the public imagination about as much. Foreman and Holmes were his best opponents, not Frazier. Was it his biggest over all fight? You can argue that. Does the fact that it received great public attention make it any more of a loss than if no one had noticed it? No. Does it trump winning the trilogy? No way.
Frazier is indeed top ten at Heavyweight, top fifty pound for pound.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Was the attendance record for that type of arena (set during Ali-Spinks II) ever broken, or does it still stand?

I know for a short while, a miscalculation saw Whitaker-Chavez announced as having snapped the record, but has any fight since actually broken it outright?

[hhaehre]

Was the attendance record for that type of arena (set during Ali-Spinks II) ever broken, or does it still stand?

I know for a short while, a miscalculation saw Whitaker-Chavez announced as having snapped the record, but has any fight since actually broken it outright?

I thought the Whitaker-Chavez drew more but if that was miscalculated then I belive the Ali-Spinks II record still stands

[hhaehre]

Ali-Spinks II had bigger attendance. Manila was arguably a better fight, and captured the public imagination about as much. Foreman and Holmes were his best opponents, not Frazier. Was it his biggest over all fight? You can argue that. Does the fact that it received great public attention make it any more of a loss than if no one had noticed it? No. Does it trump winning the trilogy? No way.
Frazier is indeed top ten at Heavyweight, top fifty pound for pound.

The "Fight of the Century" was the most anticipated fight of Alis career by far. It was also the best fight he was ever in. I am sure the fight would have shattered any attendance record if they could have crammed more people in, the interest was huge. The fact that you bring up the Holmes fight to dispel the magnitude of Ali-Frazier I is truly something.

Look, I know it is painful for you to realize that Ali lost the biggest fight of his career but you just have to find a way to live with it.

[I Feel Fine]

I want to call your last response dumb, but that would be an insult to dumb responses.

GI... I believe it has the indoor attendance record.

[hhaehre]

I want to call your last response dumb, but that would be an insult to dumb responses.

Doesn't take much to rattle your chain does it ? Please tell me which Ali fight (single fight that is) was bigger than "Fight of the century" but please be careful, if you say Ali-Spinks II I may need surgery to fix a laugh-induced hernia.