Mayweather, is he the greatest ever?

[gizmo1]

PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter

- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?

the fact that they both started at the same weight does not necessarily mean they are both the same natural size

DLH drained hugely to get to 130, Floyd had to drain a little to begind with and slightly more as he came to the end of his reign at 130lbs

the very fact that oscar's in ring weight is over 160 which floyd's has NEVER been, SHOULD be enough for you to work out that Floyd is smaller naturally.

I agree Floyd was naturally smaller than Oscar, but we can't say for sure that Floyd was never 160+ on the night. He looked huge against Marquez and since he didn't allow himself to be weighed on the night i wouldn't be surprised if he was 160 ish. There is no way that he was 152 to 154 as some suggested.

[Counter-puncher]

aaaaargh.

can people stop mentioning that JMm was level with Casamayor or Diaz

he fricken KTFO'd them. makes it a moot point surely?

[Deserter]

encourage him what? to use logic, not to insert useless biased angles into discussions, etc?

It was an attempt to lighten the mood fella - he's clearly going to go away at some point if everyone ignores him but some of the other regular posters have already given a 'heads-up' that he's a notorious 'troll' so reasonable attempts to engage in discussions are doomed to failure. Shame, because as trolls go he's a reasonably articulate one!

[Counter-puncher]

Shame, because as trolls go he's a reasonably articulate one!

you think? he's insane and his phrasemaking borders on the bizarre, he has a talent for mixing mextaphors to the extent that.... oh god, i give up.

gizmo- we don't *know* PBF's weight i concede

but for him to have been over 160 he would have had to add 14+lbs. i personally don't think he added that much

i would add that as he is so lean there *might* be a tendency to think he is heavier than he is on account of his having no excess on him

[Deserter]

Shame, because as trolls go he's a reasonably articulate one!

you think? he's insane and his phrasemaking borders on the bizarre, he has a talent for mixing mextaphors to the extent that.... oh god, i give up.

He can spell, which automatically puts him in the top five per cent of trolls.... but you've got a point with the metaphors

[jamesmcdonnell]

Floyds main problem is the lack of a defining fight.
If you look at the following list of all time greats they all fought other champions who also belong on the top 100 fighters of all time. Floyd has not. He has to a degree cherry picked his opponents as he has moved up and i think the reason some fans dislike him is because in recent years he has seemed reluctant to take a risk. Which is effectively what it is when you face someone from the top echelon of your division.
For example:
Ali, Frazier and Foreman all gambled against each other.
Sugar Ray Robinson gambled against La Motta, Turpin, Basilio, Fullmer and Maxim.
Hagler, Hearns, Leonard and Duran all risked it against each other.
In more modern times, fighters I respect have taken huge risks to prove they are greats:
Hopkins - Trinidad, Tarver, Pavlik, Calzaghe, RJJ, Johnson.
Calzaghe - Lacy (at the time), Kessler, Hopkins.
Mosley - ODLH, Wright, Margarito. Cotto, Forrest.
Barrera, Manny, Morales, JMM all took on the best they could in each other.

When has Floyd ever actively pursued another top fighter to cement his legacy? Why did he not fight Kostya Tzsyu? Why not fight Cotto at light welter either? Why no Mosley, Margarito or Williams so far at welter? If he wants people to recognize him as an all time great then he has to take the gamble and put himself in a competitive fight. The only real gauge we have so far is him sneaking to a points win against an old and running out of gas Oscar. Hardly a glowing performance for the pretty boy against the only other fighter he has fought who is anywhere near top class. The only two fights he has had against unbeaten 'dangermen' were Corrales and Hatton. Two of my favorite all time fighters but not even I would go as far as to say either were truly top, top class fighters. Floyd needs his defining fights. Hopefully Manny, Mosley or Cotto can provide them.

I don't really think you can keep a straight face and say Calzaghe has a better legacy than Floyd.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter

- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?

the fact that they both started at the same weight does not necessarily mean they are both the same natural size

DLH drained hugely to get to 130, Floyd had to drain a little to begind with and slightly more as he came to the end of his reign at 130lbs

the very fact that oscar's in ring weight is over 160 which floyd's has NEVER been, SHOULD be enough for you to work out that Floyd is smaller naturally.

- Oscar started to become a little porker in between bouts and wanted no more than to fight once a year as a promoter in bouts he chose with a wave of his pinky at easy to make weights.

Like Oscar, Mr. Moneybags starts his career in both superfeather and LW bouts. READ the facts that I provided: Mr. Money was able to stay as superfeather champ longer due to weighins being pushed back a day to allow 2 days of rehydration and recovery before the fight. They are the same size in essence, the difference being Mr. Money has never been seen in the extra poundage that Oscar sported in and out of the ring. Age 32 and he squeezed down as far as he could go at 146. We know he gained at least 6-8lbs, likely 10+, but we don't have official confirmation because he was already taking a hiding for fighting a little guy and wouldn't be weighed.

All these fight night weights ignores that these are unofficial, perhaps on no more than bathroom scales with no controls over the streetwear and assorted change, keys, and bling being worn. He's fought and won titles in 5 of Oscar's 6 divisions, indicating he's the same size since nobody ever accepted Oscar as a middleweight looking like the Michelin Man.

A poorly informed lot some of you appear to be.

[DavidPayne]

Mayweather does cherry pick though, you can't argue that.

So the comparison isn't without some substance.

[Counter-puncher]

. They are the same size in essence, the difference being Mr. Money has never been seen in the extra poundage that Oscar sported in and out of the ring..

which = they are not the same size, thanks.

[Autobarn]

- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing

- Oscar started to become a little porker in between bouts and wanted no more than to fight once a year as a promoter in bouts he chose with a wave of his pinky at easy to make weights.

Like Oscar, Mr. Moneybags starts his career in both superfeather and LW bouts. READ the facts that I provided: Mr. Money was able to stay as superfeather champ longer due to weighins being pushed back a day to allow 2 days of rehydration and recovery before the fight. They are the same size in essence, the difference being Mr. Money has never been seen in the extra poundage that Oscar sported in and out of the ring. Age 32 and he squeezed down as far as he could go at 146. We know he gained at least 6-8lbs, likely 10+, but we don't have official confirmation because he was already taking a hiding for fighting a little guy and wouldn't be weighed.

All these fight night weights ignores that these are unofficial, perhaps on no more than bathroom scales with no controls over the streetwear and assorted change, keys, and bling being worn. He's fought and won titles in 5 of Oscar's 6 divisions, indicating he's the same size since nobody ever accepted Oscar as a middleweight looking like the Michelin Man.

A poorly informed lot some of you appear to be.

they are not the same size in essence. DLH was a huge super feather and lightweight with big power advantages and suspect stamina - the traits of a big drainer. and while DLH wasn't the biggest welter in the world (physically), he seemed to grow naturally into light middle with age and stopped some top fighters up there - some genuine light middles. Payweather struggled with the size and strength of his first lightweight opponent - Castillo - and likewise had to ease himself into light welter (corley fight) and welter (sharmbah mitchell). floyd was stretching it going up to light middle, and clearly did so due to the huge reward in beating a fading DLH. at welter, floyd has fought men moving up in weight - hatton, marquez - in hisd biggest bouts. at welter, regardless of how he performed, DLH was facing the likes of Tito Trinidad and Ike Quartey.

[Counter-puncher]

i agree, 'barn.

[Tantum]

I really hope this is a joke thread.

No its not a joke, a little contraversial maybe. Some my think SRL was better, or maybe Ali. PBF is definately up there with the best.

He's top 100, maybe. He's no where near Jones Jr

You're joking, right?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

they are not the same size in essence. DLH was a huge super feather and lightweight with big power advantages and suspect stamina - the traits of a big drainer. and while DLH wasn't the biggest welter in the world (physically), he seemed to grow naturally into light middle with age and stopped some top fighters up there - some genuine light middles. Payweather struggled with the size and strength of his first lightweight opponent - Castillo - and likewise had to ease himself into light welter (corley fight) and welter (sharmbah mitchell). floyd was stretching it going up to light middle, and clearly did so due to the huge reward in beating a fading DLH. at welter, floyd has fought men moving up in weight - hatton, marquez - in hisd biggest bouts. at welter, regardless of how he performed, DLH was facing the likes of Tito Trinidad and Ike Quartey.

- Any difference being that Oscar before becoming a promoter was actually a very gifted offensive fighter with big ambitions and heavily promoted and pushed on through the ranks.

Much larger cajones than Mr. Moneybags who became more of the scavenger class than champ as he moved up. Naturally in perfect fighting condition as in their youth they are virtually identical. Oscar makes his welt debut age 24, and MM at age 28, with the difference being weighin's being pushed back. MM has been bang on or within a pound of every title fight he's been in, indications of a weight drainer. He was not promoted as heavily, never pushed himself as hard, never holding any but the WBC belt, a big difference, yet always in the gym staying in shape so he could hang on to that WBC belt. Oscar moves out of the division at age 28, and maybe he seemed like he "grew" into 154, basically he was fighting at his natural in shape ring weight and gifted enough to beat some limited opposition there, certainly nobody much bigger and stronger like a Pavlik or a Williams who have campaigned there of the current crop.

Done with how many pounds of butter can you balance on a pinhead debate. MM wasn't even picked as Ring fighter of the 90s or 00s, so there's about 0.0001% probability he'll be picked as consensus greatest ever.

[ts20743]

Fugg no! Are you kidding?
He's an exceptional fighter with great skills, but has carefully handpicked his opponents...again, other than his wins over Castillo, what fights on his resume could you say qualify as epic?
None that I can think of...in all of his time as welterweight he's faced Carlos Baldomir, and moved up to face De la Hoya...he won't face Mosley, or Cotto...
Its all too clear in the minds of the fight public what he's done and continues to do...and that's avoid any real tough challenges...a lot of what he gets away with against smaller fighters he wouldn't get way with other elite welters...the few times Marquez did land flush punches, had that been delivered by a welter, Money would find himself in trouble...

And I'm sorry, when you're landing 50% or better against a smaller opponent, you better KO him...I'm just sayin'... 8)

[Counter-puncher]

MM has been bang on or within a pound of every title fight he's been in, indications of a weight drainer.

he was 147lbs in ring for Judah, indications he wasn't a drainer at all.

[Coco]

PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter

- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?

It was you that put ODLH in your list, and then stated 'could PBF live with any of the list'?
I repeat PBF beat ODLH! Despite them starting at a similar weight, ODLH is clearly the bigger man.
You are the only person here who has embarrassingly exposed himself and it leads me to doubt how much you watch boxing!

[NazNaci1]

To be fair mate, it was me who put him on my list, not BRR.

BRR just made reference that they both started off at the same weight. And he makes some very good points.

Honestly, in my opinion Mayweather does not come even close to those I mentioned and he also 'beat' a washed De La Hoya, even though I dont think he won that fight with his back pedalling and picking and poking.

Hating Mayweather does not even enter the equation, either I just believe to be the best, you have to beat the best or atleast have go at fighting them. And as for 'Greatness', he is well, well short of that.

But hey, you have your opinion and I have mine.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

PBF beat ODLH despite being naturaly 2 weights lighter

- Oh my stars, some of you really do manage to expose yourselves so embarrassingly.

Oscar won his first title at superfeather as did Mr. Moneybags who got to stay in the division longer thanks to day before weighins.

Do you even watch boxing?

It was you that put ODLH in your list, and then stated 'could PBF live with any of the list'?
I repeat PBF beat ODLH! Despite them starting at a similar weight, ODLH is clearly the bigger man.
You are the only person here who has embarrassingly exposed himself and it leads me to doubt how much you watch boxing!

- Solly Charley, your quoted response is nothing that I've listed. Tu confuso.

At age 35 Oscar got down to 150 and looked good enough to retire Mr. Money after the Forbes match. He was obviously in good enough shape after more than a year's training to feel confident and be the favorite going against Manny, results be damned. "Boxing experts" write this stuff and set the odds, and most thought Oscar at welt would break Manny in two.

Doubt Mr. Moneybags will be fighting as welt at age 35. Heck, he could retire tomorrow and nobody would even remember he came back!

[Captain Hook]

Come back and ask that after Mayweather has beaten PACMAN, MOSLEY and PAUL WILLIAMS but untill than BE QUIET!!!

I think he beats all three, but Cotto is another matter. PS no need for rudeness.

Yes, actually I think rudeness is completely justified on this occasion.

Name me one fighter that Mayweather has beaten that was as good as Duran at welter (please don't say Oscar, as biting ruthless sarcasm & an explosion of swearing is likely to offend)? & why oh why was the Oscar fight reasonably close (arguably 7-5 or 8-4 in rounds)? 'Cos he just ain't that good.


Very good, yes. Great, maybe? But "the best ever"? You need your effing medication looked at.

Agreed, and in my opinion Floyd is top 10 p4p of all time already.....saying he would lose by shut-out to Hearns is bullshit btw.....

[NazNaci1]

Agreed, and in my opinion Floyd is top 10 p4p of all time already.....saying he would lose by shut-out to Hearns is bullshit btw.....

On the basis of what? Being unbeaten? Fighting the best? Cleaning out divisons?

And against Hearns? You think he might actually beat him?

Not a flame btw mate, just trying to understand the angle your coming in on this?

[Captain Hook]

Agreed, and in my opinion Floyd is top 10 p4p of all time already.....saying he would lose by shut-out to Hearns is bullshit btw.....

On the basis of what? Being unbeaten? Fighting the best? Cleaning out divisons?

And against Hearns? You think he might actually beat him?

Not a flame btw mate, just trying to understand the angle your coming in on this?

I am a massive Hearns fan mate but saying he'd lose by a huge margin to Hearns is crap. Based on what? Huge jab but plenty of fighters got past it and did damage and i believe Floyd would have had plenty of success before losing a decision To the Hitman.

Mayweather is absolute class and the only debatable fights were v Castillo - I had him winning them.

Look at who he has beaten in convincing fashion. Hatton for starters, Corrales, Marquez, Gatti, Manfredy, Hernandez...the list goes on. Yet still people don't give him his props. A lot of that is down to his attitude and the fact he's still fighting now.

If he was a nicer guy and we were 10 years down the line he'd get more respect.

He woud lose to Leonard, Duran, Pryor and Hearns IMO, but not by shut-out. No way.

[alexpaterson]

I have Floyd in my top 10 p4p ever he has moved up 5 weights and fought good champions at every weight and is still undefeated and has looked brillaint in the process his fight against Corrales when he was under-dog was an amazing fight for him

[hitman_hatton1]

said it before and i'll say it again.

if floyd wins the middleweight title he's the best ever in my book.

from super feather to middle would be an awesome achievement.

he's already gone from 130 to 154.

[hitman_hatton1]

He woud lose to Leonard, Duran, Pryor and Hearns IMO, but not by shut-out. No way.

i think he'd outbox duran.

hearns cos of size difference and long range style would have been tricky.

i think i would have tipped him against pryor.

and i'll sit on the fence with leonard. :>

[Deserter]

said it before and i'll say it again.

if floyd wins the middleweight title he's the best ever in my book.

from super feather to middle would be an awesome achievement.

he's already gone from 130 to 154.

I'm sorry fella, but that's just insane. It doesn't take into account anything from the way in which you can selectively pick up belts in the modern era, just like Oscar and Floyd have done, through to the questionable belieft that rising through the weight classes somehow constitutes a barometer of greatness. Look at Hagler and Monzon - didn't move up at all and didn't need to, to establish a legacy.
Since he left Lightweight Floyd has systematically taken the 'path of least resistance' to accumulate his belts. His achievements don't even compare with Leonard, let alone deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Armstrong and Robinson.
He's a modern great, but the way he's hand-picked his opposition and chosen not to take the fights that would help define a real legacy mean I find it impossible to rank him in a top 10 p4p of all time. I honestly think it's madness when there have been so many genuinely great fighters out there who proved themselves by not just beating their peers, but through the manner in which they beat them.