Smokin Joe Frazier

[I Feel Fine]

As I alluded to earlier, it is probably his biggest over all. What makes me laugh is how much of that post went over your head. Providing context and trying to specificy what "biggest" means, which is subjective and can be defined differently, was what I was doing. It was also meant to point out that this fight hardly ecclipses certain other important fights in Ali's career. Nor is it clearly the best fight of his career, as you try to suggest, even if it is arguably the best.
Either way, as I said earlier, boxer's legacies do not rise or fall on the basis of one fight, and Ali-Frazier I was not definitive in the long run of the trilogy or their careers. Ali got the better of it, past his best, head to head and career for career.

[hhaehre]

As I alluded to earlier, it is probably his biggest over all.

So we agree then ?

What makes me laugh is how much of that post went over your head. Providing context and trying to specificy what "biggest" means, which is subjective and can be defined differently, was what I was doing.

Sure it's subjective, I guess I didn't specify why I feel the first Ali-Frazier fight is the biggest, here goes:
1. Most anticipated hw fight since Louis-Schmeling II, huge public interest.
2. Two undefeated champions (Ali being the exile champ)
3. A pick'em fight
4. The fight itself lived up to all expectations. A great fight, arguably one of the best hw fights ever.

It was also meant to point out that this fight hardly ecclipses certain other important fights in Ali's career. Nor is it clearly the best fight of his career, as you try to suggest, even if it is arguably the best.

No one said it eclipsed anything and while it may not have been Alis best performance as a fighter I still think it was the best fight he ever took part in.

Either way, as I said earlier, boxer's legacies do not rise or fall on the basis of one fight, and Ali-Frazier I was not definitive in the long run of the trilogy or their careers. Ali got the better of it, past his best, head to head and career for career.

I never said Alis legacy depended on the first Frazier fight or any single fight, all I said was that Ali lost the biggest fight of his career.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Anyone aware of the odds for the first fight? For any of the three, for that matter?

Presumably, Ali was a heavy favourite for Manila. I don't know what the lines would've been like for the two previous bouts, though.

Anyone got a clue?

[hhaehre]

Anyone aware of the odds for the first fight? For any of the three, for that matter?

Presumably, Ali was a heavy favourite for Manila. I don't know what the lines would've been like for the two previous bouts, though.

Anyone got a clue?

6-5 Frazier in '71

[yancey]

He won the biggest fight of the century.

That he did, he won the biggest fight of Alis career. Some people don't take kindly to that fact.

Nothin' like getting to the heart of the matter.

[Mr E]

He won the biggest fight of the century.

That he did, he won the biggest fight of Alis career. Some people don't take kindly to that fact.

Nothin' like getting to the heart of the matter.

What does "biggest" mean to you guys? I can think of several good definitions -- and they all apply as well to the Foreman fight as to the first Frazier fight.

Curious also as to how Big George figures into your collective analysis. Styles make fights? Was Frazier past his prime when he went to Kingston? If the latter, do any of you believe that prime Frazier would have beaten prime Foreman?

[yancey]

What does "biggest" mean to you guys? I can think of several good definitions -- and they all apply as well to the Foreman fight as to the first Frazier fight.

Curious also as to how Big George figures into your collective analysis. Styles make fights? Was Frazier past his prime when he went to Kingston? If the latter, do any of you believe that prime Frazier would have beaten prime Foreman?[/quote]




Frazier-Ali I easily the biggest, most important fight I've seen in 40 yrs. Ali-Foreman became big only because the "right" guy won, lol.

Frazier definitely past prime against Foreman in Jamaica. He also was overconfident and not in top shape. Frazier lost his edge after the FOTC. See the Frazier-Daniels and Frazier-Stander fights, where he had difficulty finishing vastly inferior opponents.

"Styles make fights"? Yes, boxers tend to have trouble with swarmers, swarmers have trouble with sluggers, sluggers have trouble with boxers.

Prime, 1969-70 Frazier against prime Foreman? A very tough fight for Frazier. Style problem, smaller swarmer against a hell of a slugger. Jamaica also saw a referee that let Foreman get away with push-offs to keep the swarmer on the outside. Frazier, given his style, has to get inside Foreman's punching radius and land early body shots to have much of a chance. If Frazier, a notorious slow starter, can get past the first few rounds against Foreman, his chances increased dramatically through sheer relentlessness and will. A big "If." I do think Foreman would have later stamina issues if he could not finish a guy like Frazier fairly early.

Would I bet on prime Frazier to beat prime Foreman? No.

Could I see the possibility of prime Frazier getting into round 4 with prime Foreman, slowly taking charge and taking Foreman somewhere around rd 10? Yes.



Edit: Sorry I messed up quote brackets, but this post is in reply to Mr. E's last post.

[yancey]

deleted.

[hhaehre]

What does "biggest" mean to you guys? I can think of several good definitions -- and they all apply as well to the Foreman fight as to the first Frazier fight.

It's all subjective of course but the "Fight of the century" was huge, much bigger than Ali-Foreman and I don't think you will find many who say otherwise. The Foreman fight became big after the fact because Ali won against the odds.

Curious also as to how Big George figures into your collective analysis. Styles make fights? Was Frazier past his prime when he went to Kingston? If the latter, do any of you believe that prime Frazier would have beaten prime Foreman?

Yes and No. Foreman had Fraziers number and I don't think it would have been different with a prime Frazier. Somkin Joe would have to take Foreman deep into the fight to succeed but I fear he would not last more than 5 rounds or so, even in his prime. A prime Liston would have been a problem for Joe also but Holmes he would eat up.

[The Great John L]

Yes and No. Foreman had Fraziers number and I don't think it would have been different with a prime Frazier. Somkin Joe would have to take Foreman deep into the fight to succeed but I fear he would not last more than 5 rounds or so, even in his prime. A prime Liston would have been a problem for Joe also but Holmes he would eat up.

Interesting, everyone always forgets that an an obese, one eyed geriatric version of Frazier almost made it to the end of the 5th against Foreman. I think a prime Frazier probably would have gotten stopped by George, but if he would have gotten a rematch I'm pretty confident that a prime, quick Frazier could have fought similar to their actual rematch and could have taken George to deep waters and finish off an exhausted George.

[yancey]

Yes and No. Foreman had Fraziers number and I don't think it would have been different with a prime Frazier. Somkin Joe would have to take Foreman deep into the fight to succeed but I fear he would not last more than 5 rounds or so, even in his prime. A prime Liston would have been a problem for Joe also but Holmes he would eat up.

Interesting, everyone always forgets that an an obese, one eyed geriatric version of Frazier almost made it to the end of the 5th against Foreman. I think a prime Frazier probably would have gotten stopped by George, but if he would have gotten a rematch I'm pretty confident that a prime, quick Frazier could have fought similar to their actual rematch and could have taken George to deep waters and finish off an exhausted George.

"quick Frazier" is the operative phrase for me. The prime, bobbing and weaving Frazier circa 1969 in the first Quarry fight showed better head movement and defensive ability than did the Frazier of his later fights. I think Frazier was damn near 10 pounds higher in weight for the first Foreman fight than the 205 pound range he weighed in the prime of his career.

[The Great John L]

Yes and No. Foreman had Fraziers number and I don't think it would have been different with a prime Frazier. Somkin Joe would have to take Foreman deep into the fight to succeed but I fear he would not last more than 5 rounds or so, even in his prime. A prime Liston would have been a problem for Joe also but Holmes he would eat up.

Interesting, everyone always forgets that an an obese, one eyed geriatric version of Frazier almost made it to the end of the 5th against Foreman. I think a prime Frazier probably would have gotten stopped by George, but if he would have gotten a rematch I'm pretty confident that a prime, quick Frazier could have fought similar to their actual rematch and could have taken George to deep waters and finish off an exhausted George.

"quick Frazier" is the operative phrase for me. The prime, bobbing and weaving Frazier circa 1969 in the first Quarry fight showed better head movement and defensive ability than did the Frazier of his later fights. I think Frazier was damn near 10 pounds higher in weight for the first Foreman fight than the 205 pound range he weighed in the prime of his career.

And a good 20 lbs in the Foreman rematch. Granted, Frazier fought quite defensively in the rematch, but that's the point. He had George hitting a lot of air. Had a prime Frazier fought Foreman in a similar style, it hardly seems like a stretch to picture him wearing big George out and stopping an exhausted George late.

[hhaehre]

And a good 20 lbs in the Foreman rematch. Granted, Frazier fought quite defensively in the rematch, but that's the point. He had George hitting a lot of air. Had a prime Frazier fought Foreman in a similar style, it hardly seems like a stretch to picture him wearing big George out and stopping an exhausted George late.

I really didn't like Frazier in the rematch, he may have lasted a bit longer but he took a beating and for the first and only time in his career (barring the Cummings debacle) he looked weak and ineffective. The fact that he lasted a bit longer probably had a lot to do with Foremans new (and imo misguided) measured style that he adopted after the Ali fight.

[Collins2000]

Some hilarious stuff here.

Seems like the Frazier shills are even worse than the Ali shills. And hypocrites as well.

[The Great John L]

Some hilarious stuff here.

Seems like the Frazier shills are even worse than the Ali shills. And hypocrites as well.

Hypocrites? Please explain.

[The Great John L]

And a good 20 lbs in the Foreman rematch. Granted, Frazier fought quite defensively in the rematch, but that's the point. He had George hitting a lot of air. Had a prime Frazier fought Foreman in a similar style, it hardly seems like a stretch to picture him wearing big George out and stopping an exhausted George late.

I really didn't like Frazier in the rematch, he may have lasted a bit longer but he took a beating and for the first and only time in his career (barring the Cummings debacle) he looked weak and ineffective. The fact that he lasted a bit longer probably had a lot to do with Foremans new (and imo misguided) measured style that he adopted after the Ali fight.

So Joe didn't take a beating in the first Foreman fight? And despite the fact that Joe was essentially blind in one eye, obese and well past his prime, he still landed more effective punches in the rematch.

The thought isn' that the old decrepit Joe would have had a chance against George, but that the prime, much quicker and healthy Frazier could have slightly adapted his style to take Foreman deep and then stop him when George invariable weakened later in the fight. Hardly a stretch for any reasonable observer.

[Collins2000]

Some hilarious stuff here.

Seems like the Frazier shills are even worse than the Ali shills. And hypocrites as well.

Hypocrites? Please explain.

Explain?

You didn't see that clown "yancey" brown-nosing granberry and babbling on about "Ali shills"?

Yet now he's in here shilling like crazy for his Frazier.

He's shilling so well he's got people now agreeing that "peak frazier" would have stopped Foreman. Yeah, right, last time I looked peak Frazier was getting knocked around like a rag doll by Foreman. But now, after a good shilling session, considered opinion is that this was an aberration and the result should be ignored as it wasn't "peak frazier" who would obviously have stopped Foreman.

You don't find that slightly hyprocritical, buddy?

[Collins2000]

The thought isn' that the old decrepit Joe would have had a chance against George, but that the prime, much quicker and healthy Frazier could have slightly adapted his style to take Foreman deep and then stop him when George invariable weakened later in the fight. Hardly a stretch for any reasonable observer.

Prime Frazier got bounced around like a rubber ball by Foreman.

I find it hard to visualise Frazier not getting hammered by Big George.

Maybe I don't have a vivid enough imagination...

[yancey]

Some hilarious stuff here.

Seems like the Frazier shills are even worse than the Ali shills. And hypocrites as well.

Hypocrites? Please explain.

Explain?

You didn't see that clown "yancey" brown-nosing granberry and babbling on about "Ali shills"?

Yet now he's in here shilling like crazy for his Frazier.

He's shilling so well he's got people now agreeing that "peak frazier" would have stopped Foreman. Yeah, right, last time I looked peak Frazier was getting knocked around like a rag doll by Foreman. But now, after a good shilling session, considered opinion is that this was an aberration and the result should be ignored as it wasn't "peak frazier" who would obviously have stopped Foreman.

You don't find that slightly hyprocritical, buddy?

My, my, my, you are a nutty little squirrel, aren't you?

But I am wrong on something.

I used to think you were the "Moe" of the Three Ali Stooges Trio that post here. Gave you a little humour credit.

But I'm wrong.

You're Curly, on crack.

I Feel Fucked is now Moe.

DD

[Collins2000]

My, my, my, you are a nutty little squirrel, aren't you?

But I am wrong on something.

I used to think you were the "Moe" of the Three Stooges Trio that post here. Gave you a little humour credit.

But I'm wrong.

You're Curly, on crack.

I Feel Fucked is now Moe.

DD

Keep shilling, boy.

And brown-nosing. Don't forsake the brown-nosing.

[The Great John L]

Explain?

You didn't see that clown "yancey" brown-nosing granberry and babbling on about "Ali shills"?

Yet now he's in here shilling like crazy for his Frazier.

He's shilling so well he's got people now agreeing that "peak frazier" would have stopped Foreman. Yeah, right, last time I looked peak Frazier was getting knocked around like a rag doll by Foreman. But now, after a good shilling session, considered opinion is that this was an aberration and the result should be ignored as it wasn't "peak frazier" who would obviously have stopped Foreman.

You don't find that slightly hyprocritical, buddy?

The only clown in this thread appears to be you. I've posted many times on this forum that I thought a prime, well prepared Frazier would have had a chance against Foreman in a rematch, after losing the initial encounter. Most on this board seem to take the more politically accepted opinion that it's just a bad matchup for Frazier, but I see things differently, and have for quite a few years.

No one said anything about "obviously stopping Foreman", so you either have a slight comprehension problem, you are merely looking for an argument, or you are angry to the point of being unable to read simple posts. Either way, you are adding absolutely nothing to the discussion, because you don't seem to want to pay attention.

BTW, I don't even read Cranberry's posts. If you find him so offensive then perhaps you should stop reading his posts as well.

[Collins2000]

The only clown in this thread appears to be you. I've posted many times on this forum that I thought a prime, well prepared Frazier would have had a chance against Foreman in a rematch, after losing the initial encounter. Most on this board seem to take the more politically accepted opinion that it's just a bad matchup for Frazier, but I see things differently, and have for quite a few years.

No one said anything about "obviously stopping Foreman", so you either have a slight comprehension problem, you are merely looking for an argument, or you are angry to the point of being unable to read simple posts. Either way, you are adding absolutely nothing to the discussion, because you don't seem to want to pay attention.

Dear John, your pompous posing is highly entertaining.

Please carry on shilling for your Frazier.

And I'll carry on chuckling at you.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Interesting, everyone always forgets that an an obese, one eyed geriatric version of Frazier almost made it to the end of the 5th against Foreman. I think a prime Frazier probably would have gotten stopped by George, but if he would have gotten a rematch I'm pretty confident that a prime, quick Frazier could have fought similar to their actual rematch and could have taken George to deep waters and finish off an exhausted George." - John L

Equally, you seem to habitually forget Foreman was never the same fighter post-Ali, even in his own words. The killer instinct was limited to flashes. Something tells me Dino Dennis doesn't last four rounds against the version of Foreman who took out Frazier & Norton in just two. There're also two other factors --- firstly, Frazier never remotely troubled Foreman in the second fight. Not one jot. Secondly, he fought running about the ring, completely away from his traditional style. He wouldn't have done that coming into a fight first-out against Foreman, as we saw in Jamaica.

Frazier was of course in far worse condition than Foreman for their rematch. However, Foreman was diminished mentally as a fighter, moreso than physically. Frazier may've lasted an extra three rounds, but he didn't do a single impressive thing with them.

Foreman always shuts down Frazier, for two simple reasons...

1) Frazier can't avoid being hit.

2) Frazier cannot withstand Foreman's punches.

It boggles my mind, personally, to hear people think any Frazier had a snowball's chance in Hell against the Foreman of '72-74.

[Robinson]

I think Frazier of the late 60s was a more versatile animal than
his later self. He was less obsessed with the left hook and had
more tools that he drew from.

Foreman generally wins against that Frazier, but I do not find
it hard to imagine Frazier winning. Foreman had a real shock and
awe approach to victory over Norton and Frazier, he shut them
down immediately. Foreman could be hit and would be hit by a
late 60s Frazier. The only thing is, how will Frazier of that period
handle the power thumped into him by Foreman. Most likely he
goes down....but....I think Frazier of this period (1968-70) is
over looked.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Did his chin depreciate somehow, post-1970? Either that, or I missed the bouts where he got up on his toes & worked behind the jab, countering the opposition with fluid handspeed & ring generalship.

More versatile, he may have been. Versatile, period, he was not. One way. Straight-forward. Can't take the punch? Can't evade the punch? Then you don't win against Foreman. I just want to hear from anyone what he is actually going to do to beat Foreman. We know he's coming forward & eating more punches than he lands to wear his adversary down, so what, precisely, is going to change so dramatically, he will reverse six knockdowns en route to a two-round stoppage?

Getting motivated & dropping a whopping nine pounds (it sickens me when I hear people say Frazier was, "overweight" for the first Foreman fight, as though he were carrying fifteen kilos or something --- he was nine pounds heavier than in his initial fight with Ali, not exactly life-threatening) ain't gonna cut it.