Mayweather, is he the greatest ever?

[jayc]

James m,

I didnt really want to turn this into a Calzaghe debate, i personally think that having Kessler and Lacy on his record constitutes more of a risk than Floyd has ever taken. That's just my opinion. Floyd needs to fight one of the following: Mosley, Williams, Berto, Cotto. Genuine welter's who can fight a bit to win me over. I said before Calzaghe fought Lacy that he needed to put it on the line against the best in and around his division and he then went out and fought Lacy, Bika, Kessler and Hopkins. They are four great fighters. What I am saying, rather than saying JC is better than FMJ, is that Floyd needs to do a similar thing and fight 3-4 genuine threats aka Mosley, Williams, Berto and Cotto for me to really appreciate him as a fighter. At present I see him as a superbly skilled technician who cherry picks his opponents to make himself look good and protect his '0' rather than taking on genuine danger men.

[J]

diego corrales? castillo, I agree since moving up theweigths he has def cherry picked but to earlier he was dominant at SF and Lightweight.

To seriously consider JC as having taken more risk than FMJ is seriously deluded.

[stujones]

What I am saying is that had Floyd fought Margarito - there would have been criticisms of him fighting Maragrito and not "the man". Look, there's been even criticism of Mayweather fighting DLH - cause DLH didn't solidify "the man" at 154. The expansion of titles means Mayweather would need to be fighting about 6 times a year to "clean up". Leonard had a 39 fight career and just 14 title fights, but could satisfy alot of people cause there was just 1 champion. Floyd's had 18 title fights, a few other non title fights against world class opponents. You cannot say any of his 18 title fights were against Bum of the month... but because it is virtually impossible in this day an age to clean up.

As I said, people are not satisfied that DLH cleaned up at 154 after he came back from the Hopkins defeat. Do people really think Cory Spinks, Dzindiruk, Santos, Verno Phillips, Ouma etc stood a chance against Oscar? Had Floyd fought Margarito at 147 in 2007 - there would have been the same (Floyd hasn't cleaned up 147 - there's 3 other champions). Well, infact... Margarito had just lost to Williams, who was about to lose the title in his first defence. Baldomir was serverly limited, but was on a good run beating proven guys like Clottey (who Margarito and Cotto struggled with), Gatti and Judah. He wasn't a belt holder like Carlos Maussa - he was the "man". Cotto's/Maragrito (well Margarito shouldn't even be in the equation cause he lost) claims to being the man at the time, was on a par's with Berto's now. Looked the part, looks fearsome, but hasn't fought the elite yet. At that time, Baldomir DESERVED to be in the ring with Floyd ahead of Margarito and Cotto.

As for Hatton, whether people like it or not - he was "the man" at 140 from 2005 - 2009. Thats a pretty long time, and more of an accomplishment than Cotto has ever had (I don't think he has ever been "the man" yet - has never beaten the #1 in the devision). Sure, he didn't excell at his 147 debut, but he won and the large opinion poll claimed that the higher the weight, the more it suits Ricky as the "naturally larger man". Now he's even getting criticised for fighting Ricky. Untill he beat Cotto, Margarito's done nothing except lose to Santos, Williams. The only time Margarito proved himself elite was for 1 fight against Cotto.

[stujones]

diego corrales? castillo, I agree since moving up theweigths he has def cherry picked but to earlier he was dominant at SF and Lightweight.

To seriously consider JC as having taken more risk than FMJ is seriously deluded.

I agree, he's cherry picked to a degree - but in his 18 title fights, you cannot say there is not one who didn't deserve the chance. Sure, more worthy fighters were out there but his opponents were all good. No real bum of the month.

Some of the fights Floyd's getting rediculed for I disagree with. I think yes, he should have fought Tszyu before Gatti or Corley. Yes, maybe he should Baldomir when he fought Judah, and then moved on to someone else when he fought Baldomir. But when people say he should never have fought Hatton or Baldomir at all - sorry, those two opponents were very important to him. Kind of like Joe not fighting Sven, lots think Joe beat better than Sven when he beat Lacy.... but Sven was the lineal "rival" as was Hatton at 140 and Baldomir at 147.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The Joe vs Mosley scenrio is a mile away from Marquez vs Mayweather. Mosley was a Lightweight who became an excellent Welterweight, but a sluggish and poor Light Middle. How can he be expected to jump 2 devisions from a devision in which he already looked terrible at to fight a big, natural, Super Middle.

Marquez was a natural Feather, who looked excellent at Lightweight and was expected to fight two devisions higher to fight a small Welter. Mosley was never considered P4P #2 when he was a 154 lbs fighter.

- Stu, you may closer to pid than you realise.

Marquez was even on the cards against the even older Casamayor when he got the ref snoozefest stoppage that Katsidis could've got with the same ref, then Manny Stewerd and the HBO crew were giving Marquez last rites in the Diaz fight until Diaz got cut and fell apart.

A good as case can be made for Super Joe as Mr. Moneybags as the greatest ever, maybe better. Mosley's record against champs at 154 is 4-2-0, 1 NC, not poor and sluggish as you go off on. Let's see what Marquez record against lightweights is after 5 more lightweight bouts against champs.

First Mosley, then the arguable #1 greatest ever, and Joe would be sorted don't you know it!!!

[jayc]

diego corrales? castillo, I agree since moving up theweigths he has def cherry picked but to earlier he was dominant at SF and Lightweight.

To seriously consider JC as having taken more risk than FMJ is seriously deluded.

A severely weight drained Corrales and for me Castillo has never been a top tier fighter. I also thought he won their first bout but lets not get into that. Kessler, Hopkins & at the time Lacy constitute more of a risk than anyone Floyd has fought. This is a fact. I understand that some people still follow the 'calzaghe never fought anyone' dogma from 5 years ago and the awful wbo years but the fact is Lacy, Kessler, Bika and Hopkins represent a greater risk than any 4 names on Floyd's resume. Please try and understand this in context and check out what the word 'risk' actually means. Those four fighters were a huge 'risk' to Calzaghe, regardless of his or Floyds relative skill level. Tell me a fight when Floyd has taken a gamble against a live opponent who had a genuine chance in the past 5 years. The only times I can think of that Floyd has come close to this is ODLH and Judah, both well past their best. It's not that difficult to grasp but i will re-iterate it for the umpteenth time. Floyd needs to fight Cotto, Mosley, Berto and Williams to prove his greatness. These fights constitute a 'risk'.

[stujones]

- Stu, you may closer to pid than you realise.

Marquez was even on the cards against the even older Casamayor when he got the ref snoozefest stoppage that Katsidis could've got with the same ref, then Manny Stewerd and the HBO crew were giving Marquez last rites in the Diaz fight until Diaz got cut and fell apart.

A good as case can be made for Super Joe as Mr. Moneybags as the greatest ever, maybe better. Mosley's record against champs at 154 is 4-2-0, 1 NC, not poor and sluggish as you go off on. Let's see what Marquez record against lightweights is after 5 more lightweight bouts against champs.

First Mosley, then the arguable #1 greatest ever, and Joe would be sorted don't you know it!!!

You bring in arguements about closeness at controvesies for Marquez's lightweight fights, but fail to add the same for Mosley just stating his record. Each of those 4 fights he won he looked poor (except the rematch against a shot to pieces Vargas), and the 2 he lost he lost handily. He was 1-2 in Light Middle TITLE fights - (lets ignore the past prime, semi retired versions of Mayorga and Vargas.. there is a reason why there was no title on the line... they'd been exposed along time ago) and then his 1 win in a title fight was one of the most bogus decisions seen.

Marquez beat 2 of the best Lightweights out there at the time. Mosley's 3 deserving victories at 154 were against fighters not in the top 10.

[J]

diego corrales? castillo, I agree since moving up theweigths he has def cherry picked but to earlier he was dominant at SF and Lightweight.

To seriously consider JC as having taken more risk than FMJ is seriously deluded.

A severely weight drained Corrales and for me Castillo has never been a top tier fighter. I also thought he won their first bout but lets not get into that. Kessler, Hopkins & at the time Lacy constitute more of a risk than anyone Floyd has fought. This is a fact. I understand that some people still follow the 'calzaghe never fought anyone' dogma from 5 years ago and the awful wbo years but the fact is Lacy, Kessler, Bika and Hopkins represent a greater risk than any 4 names on Floyd's resume. Please try and understand this in context and check out what the word 'risk' actually means. Those four fighters were a huge 'risk' to Calzaghe, regardless of his or Floyds relative skill level. Tell me a fight when Floyd has taken a gamble against a live opponent who had a genuine chance in the past 5 years. The only times I can think of that Floyd has come close to this is ODLH and Judah, both well past their best. It's not that difficult to grasp but i will re-iterate it for the umpteenth time. Floyd needs to fight Cotto, Mosley, Berto and Williams to prove his greatness. These fights constitute a 'risk'.

whats its fact cos you say so?

Also how is Corrales top level but castillo not when JC beat corrales then? There was a time Castillo was top 5 if not 3 p4p which is more than lacy or kesller can ever claim.

I think you under rate PBF's early career and over state JC's latter career.

FACT.

[jayc]

J, I have toothache so sorry if i'm struggling a little here. Castillo? If you had him top 5 p4p fair enough but i strongly disagree. He wasn't even the best in mexico before the two mayweather or two corrales fights. The win over diego was to do with the weight and you know that as well as I do. Honestly, do you rate Castillo higher than Corrales? If so thats fine, your opinion but i think Corrales is better.
My original point is still valid, regardless of Calzaghe, Castillo or Corrales' ability, Floyd needs to take some more risks if he wants to be considered an all time great on the level of Hagler, Leonard, Robinson etc.

[J]

The last sentence we agree on and Joe Calzaghe isnt even in the same ball park as those names.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

I can and I will, he will also do better at strictly come dancing haha..............i'm actually not saying it's better, just that Calzaghe has actually taken more risks than Floyd so in the context of his division deserves more credit. Joe has only one or two names missing from his ledger in Johnson or Ottke. Floyd has numerous names missing from his at welter/light-welter. He may yet face them and I will respect him more if he does.

You clearly havent followed Calzaghe's or Mayweather's careers because Calzaghe missed countless fights even though he was in a weak division. Lets try Chad Dawson, Prime Jones, Prime Hopkins, Otke, Beyer, Reid Rematch, Mundine, Green, Tarver, Glen Johnson, and thats all off the top of my head I'm sure there's more.

Mayweather was underdog against Corrales who was P4P no5, took a big risk fighting no1 LW Champ Castillo in his first LW fight, took a big risk taking on no1 LHW Delahoya who was vastly bigger than him, Hatton and Judah were risks who had tough styles (speed/pressure). Also bare in mind Mayweather was often outweighed 8-15lbs on fight night in some of his biggest fights like Delahoya, Castillo, Corrales, Gatti.

[jayc]

I've followed both and seen both fight live (calzaghe on numerous occasions) so to say I haven't followed their careers because I hold a different opinion to you is ridiculous so i will respond with an equally ridiculous statement. Suck my nutz. Cheers.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

If you followed Joes career you'd know he didnt take a meaningful top fight from Eubank-Lacy, arguably Eubank-Kessler, he was seen as a running joke for many of those years and for good reason wasn't in anyone top20 P4P lists let alone top10

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

You clearly havent followed Calzaghe's or Mayweather's careers because Calzaghe missed countless fights even though he was in a weak division. Lets try Chad Dawson, Prime Jones, Prime Hopkins, Otke, Beyer, Reid Rematch, Mundine, Green, Tarver, Glen Johnson, and thats all off the top of my head I'm sure there's more.

- My little phenom, sure hope you don't eat what you post.

Ignoring that Mr. Moneybags has yet to fight much less beat any current Ring ranked welt where he's ranked and ignoring who ignored whom in the past, clearly you don't know boxing or how to break down rankings.

Joe's opponent names currently occupy 5 places in the current Ring rankings, Mr. Moneybags has 3 places. Average rank of Joe's best 3 is 2.0 compared to MM's only 3, avg 2.33 ranking. Joe's average ranked opponent weight is 171.6 lbs, dead square between his two weight classes. MM's avg opponent weight class is 136.66 lbs, well below the weights he's been fighting at the past 4 yrs.

Manny's numbers are also superior to MM's. Joe has never sat atop the Ring p4p rankings though he got up around 2-3 just before retirement, but clearly he and the fighter of the decade, Manny deserved to nick some of MM's 2 yr stay as top p4per there.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

You clearly havent followed Calzaghe's or Mayweather's careers because Calzaghe missed countless fights even though he was in a weak division. Lets try Chad Dawson, Prime Jones, Prime Hopkins, Otke, Beyer, Reid Rematch, Mundine, Green, Tarver, Glen Johnson, and thats all off the top of my head I'm sure there's more.

- My little phenom, sure hope you don't eat what you post.

Ignoring that Mr. Moneybags has yet to fight much less beat any current Ring ranked welt where he's ranked and ignoring who ignored whom in the past, clearly you don't know boxing or how to break down rankings.

Joe's opponent names currently occupy 5 places in the current Ring rankings, Mr. Moneybags has 3 places. Average rank of Joe's best 3 is 2.0 compared to MM's only 3, avg 2.33 ranking. Joe's average ranked opponent weight is 171.6 lbs, dead square between his two weight classes. MM's avg opponent weight class is 136.66 lbs, well below the weights he's been fighting at the past 4 yrs.

Manny's numbers are also superior to MM's. Joe has never sat atop the Ring p4p rankings though he got up around 2-3 just before retirement, but clearly he and the fighter of the decade, Manny deserved to nick some of MM's 2 yr stay as top p4per there.

Statistics aside, at Welterweight and Super Welterweight, Mayweather has 6 fights - The Undisputed Welter Champ, The Prior Undisputer Welter Champ, The no1 154lber Champion, The Ring 140lb champion, A Former 140lb titlist, The no1 Lightweight Champion.

Your statistic is incredibly biased, Mayweather hasnt fought in 2 years, 3 of his last 6 have either retired or died, not much chance they are going to be ranked, the other 3 are currently top 10 fighters though.

Can you please tell me how Marquez (142), Hatton (145), delahoya (154), judah (146), Baldomir (147) averages to 136.66 what are you averaging his opponents from? His fights at 130 and 135 when he was much smaller? Did you know Mayweather has been outweighed in all his biggest fights bar Marquez?

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Statistics aside, at Welterweight and Super Welterweight, Mayweather has 6 fights - The Undisputed Welter Champ, The Prior Undisputer Welter Champ, The no1 154lber Champion, The Ring 140lb champion, A Former 140lb titlist, The no1 Lightweight Champion.

Your statistic is incredibly biased, Mayweather hasnt fought in 2 years, 3 of his last 6 have either retired or died, not much chance they are going to be ranked, the other 3 are currently top 10 fighters though.

Can you please tell me how Marquez (142), Hatton (145), delahoya (154), judah (146), Baldomir (147) averages to 136.66 what are you averaging his opponents from? His fights at 130 and 135 when he was much smaller? Did you know Mayweather has been outweighed in all his biggest fights bar Marquez?

- Like I said Mr. Phenom, hope your diet is better than what you post. Mr. Moneybags directly put off the biggest fight of his career against The Undisputed Welter Champ to fight fight Gatti and then Sharmba Mitchell coming off a KO loss to Tyszu.

See, Mr. Phenom, you've already forgotten that Baldo Sasquatch was merely the Ring/WBC belt holder. He was the WBC set up for Zab to get him past a mandatory to set up the superfight against MM. Does MM go directly after Baldo? No, instead he goes after the disgraced loser and wins the biggest ring travesty since Joe Walcott blew every second of the Liston/Ali rematch.

Apparently you failed to properly process the English language since I clearly stated the weight averages were of the division class of opponents ranked in current Ring's ratings.

""3 of his last 6 have either retired or died,"" Oh, the irony you weave is utterly lost on you.

MM has indeed fought in two years, he just fought. It's coming up on a year since Joe last fought, so somehow MM is excused for retiring two years rather than fight for his two largest career purses to be, the fights Manny picked up? Only holding his company issue WBC belt, never having unified against the WBO/IBF/WBA champs who were all fighting each other then and still are as well as highly ring ranked. Never having even fought his mandatory, Berto?

We're talking about two different things here. I'm talking about the fighter MM, and you're talkin' the poster MM in your bedroom.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Stu, you may closer to pid than you realise.

Marquez was even on the cards against the even older Casamayor when he got the ref snoozefest stoppage that Katsidis could've got with the same ref, then Manny Stewerd and the HBO crew were giving Marquez last rites in the Diaz fight until Diaz got cut and fell apart.

A good as case can be made for Super Joe as Mr. Moneybags as the greatest ever, maybe better. Mosley's record against champs at 154 is 4-2-0, 1 NC, not poor and sluggish as you go off on. Let's see what Marquez record against lightweights is after 5 more lightweight bouts against champs.

First Mosley, then the arguable #1 greatest ever, and Joe would be sorted don't you know it!!!

You bring in arguements about closeness at controvesies for Marquez's lightweight fights, but fail to add the same for Mosley just stating his record. Each of those 4 fights he won he looked poor (except the rematch against a shot to pieces Vargas), and the 2 he lost he lost handily. He was 1-2 in Light Middle TITLE fights - (lets ignore the past prime, semi retired versions of Mayorga and Vargas.. there is a reason why there was no title on the line... they'd been exposed along time ago) and then his 1 win in a title fight was one of the most bogus decisions seen.

Marquez beat 2 of the best Lightweights out there at the time. Mosley's 3 deserving victories at 154 were against fighters not in the top 10.

- Why, StuJ, deserving? You mean Casamayor deserved his ring belt after a disputed split over Corrales, losing every second against Santa Cruz, and then sitting on his belt for a year before deciding he wanted to fight again? Yeah, that 40 yr old who held Marquez even on the cards late into the fight?

Marquez notched the wins, but he was often looking quite dire in his last 2 fights and had a loss and another beating by Manny just before that. That's the old guy MM targeted in his comeback, so mission accomplished and that's it, that's all she wrote is it?

Are we supposed to be impressed, or relieved?

[Autobarn]

The Joe vs Mosley scenrio is a mile away from Marquez vs Mayweather. Mosley was a Lightweight who became an excellent Welterweight, but a sluggish and poor Light Middle. How can he be expected to jump 2 devisions from a devision in which he already looked terrible at to fight a big, natural, Super Middle.

Marquez was a natural Feather, who looked excellent at Lightweight and was expected to fight two devisions higher to fight a small Welter. Mosley was never considered P4P #2 when he was a 154 lbs fighter.

I agree, but Marquez was going way up in weight as he was in very tough fights at lightweight. Being a wrelterweight is pretty outrageous. Juan Money Marquez shouldn't have been up there. I think Golden Boy, who have brought big catchweight into the sport so that their ancient names can still win big fights, have had their strategy backfire now.

But definitely Mosley should never fight above 154, given the way Mosley's career stalled at 154, even the way it stalled at 147. 170 would be even more outrageous than Juan Money Marquez going up to welterweight.

[Counter-puncher]

Marquez notched the wins, but he was often looking quite dire in his last 2 fights and had a loss and another beating by Manny just before that. That's the old guy MM targeted in his comeback, so mission accomplished and that's it, that's all she wrote is it?

i love the way you manage to pitch, (a) a fight against a peak p4p no1 (pac) in which JMM fought him really close and almost certainly desrved 5 rounds off Pac, and (b) a KO win against a much younger LW division top 3 fighter (Diaz), as somehow detrimental to Marquez.

[Datsue]

Christ, are you lot still trying to talk to Broughton?

[Counter-puncher]

Christ, are you lot still trying to talk to Broughton?

i know. thing is mate, I've got used to having the futility of it in my life. 'my daily dose of futility beckons, etc....'

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Marquez notched the wins, but he was often looking quite dire in his last 2 fights and had a loss and another beating by Manny just before that. That's the old guy MM targeted in his comeback, so mission accomplished and that's it, that's all she wrote is it?

i love the way you manage to pitch, (a) a fight against a peak p4p no1 (pac) in which JMM fought him really close and almost certainly desrved 5 rounds off Pac, and (b) a KO win against a much younger LW division top 3 fighter (Diaz), as somehow detrimental to Marquez.

- Is this English?

I'm pointing out that the 36 yr old JMM was shipped some heavy punishment in his last 3 fights fighting in higher divisions he likely wouldn't be at but for trying to chase Manny around as his lost sugar daddy. This is the old guy MM targeted publicly on the eve of the Ricky/Manny fight instead of targeting that winner. "I'm back to reclaim what was mine" to paraphrase that paradigm of Blenglish, ignoring that he didn't want to reclaim his lifetime WBC belt that the untested Berto currently holds.

OK, he beat the little old fella choked down on his own pssss that he was a big favorite to beat, but no, that don't make MM the best ever.

As far as Manny being peak, well established that he's never looked bigger, stronger, faster and more dominating since he moved out of Jr Feather, indications that he was not fighting at his natural weight so could not have been "peak." Likely he has reached his peak now since he's scarcely lost a round and 3-0, 3 KO since moving up several divisions.

Oh, and it ain't about me, it's about boxing, something that seems to have escaped the grasp of the soft lads. I see plenty of sharp elbows and soft opinions, but little boxing content in this forum.

[jamesmcdonnell]

What I am saying is that had Floyd fought Margarito - there would have been criticisms of him fighting Maragrito and not "the man". Look, there's been even criticism of Mayweather fighting DLH - cause DLH didn't solidify "the man" at 154. The expansion of titles means Mayweather would need to be fighting about 6 times a year to "clean up". Leonard had a 39 fight career and just 14 title fights, but could satisfy alot of people cause there was just 1 champion. Floyd's had 18 title fights, a few other non title fights against world class opponents. You cannot say any of his 18 title fights were against Bum of the month... but because it is virtually impossible in this day an age to clean up.

As I said, people are not satisfied that DLH cleaned up at 154 after he came back from the Hopkins defeat. Do people really think Cory Spinks, Dzindiruk, Santos, Verno Phillips, Ouma etc stood a chance against Oscar? Had Floyd fought Margarito at 147 in 2007 - there would have been the same (Floyd hasn't cleaned up 147 - there's 3 other champions). Well, infact... Margarito had just lost to Williams, who was about to lose the title in his first defence. Baldomir was serverly limited, but was on a good run beating proven guys like Clottey (who Margarito and Cotto struggled with), Gatti and Judah. He wasn't a belt holder like Carlos Maussa - he was the "man". Cotto's/Maragrito (well Margarito shouldn't even be in the equation cause he lost) claims to being the man at the time, was on a par's with Berto's now. Looked the part, looks fearsome, but hasn't fought the elite yet. At that time, Baldomir DESERVED to be in the ring with Floyd ahead of Margarito and Cotto.

As for Hatton, whether people like it or not - he was "the man" at 140 from 2005 - 2009. Thats a pretty long time, and more of an accomplishment than Cotto has ever had (I don't think he has ever been "the man" yet - has never beaten the #1 in the devision). Sure, he didn't excell at his 147 debut, but he won and the large opinion poll claimed that the higher the weight, the more it suits Ricky as the "naturally larger man". Now he's even getting criticised for fighting Ricky. Untill he beat Cotto, Margarito's done nothing except lose to Santos, Williams. The only time Margarito proved himself elite was for 1 fight against Cotto.

I think Corey Spinks and Karmazin would have both had good chances of beating Oscar.

[Counter-puncher]

Oh, and it ain't about me, it's about boxing, something that seems to have escaped the grasp of the soft lads. I see plenty of sharp elbows and soft opinions, but little boxing content in this forum.

oh, okay, well then i take it you won't be wasting your valuable time on this forum in future then? i would hate for your extensive knowledge and unique insight to be wasted like pearls upon us swine


cheers, best of luck and happy travels

[stujones]

I think Corey Spinks and Karmazin would have both had good chances of beating Oscar.

Based on? Losses to Castelejo (Karmazin) - who Oscar shut out... or tad controvesial wins over Mayorga (Spinks) - who Oscar destroyed.

They are both decent fighters - but lets be honest, had Oscar fought these there would have been huge criticisms as they are not in his league. Infact, there was a time when Karmazin was mandatory to Oscar and the match was discussed - it was met with widespread chorus of boo's on the various forums and talk of an "Oscarcot" was mentioned, much in the same way a "roycott" was done.

Their decent operators, but never proven themselves elite for a sustained period.

Lets put it this way, I give Curry more of a chance against Leonard than I do Spinks/Karmazin/Ouma/Phillips etc over Oscar.