Mayweather, is he the greatest ever?

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think Corey Spinks and Karmazin would have both had good chances of beating Oscar.

Based on? Losses to Castelejo (Karmazin) - who Oscar shut out... or tad controvesial wins over Mayorga (Spinks) - who Oscar destroyed.

They are both decent fighters - but lets be honest, had Oscar fought these there would have been huge criticisms as they are not in his league. Infact, there was a time when Karmazin was mandatory to Oscar and the match was discussed - it was met with widespread chorus of boo's on the various forums and talk of an "Oscarcot" was mentioned, much in the same way a "roycott" was done.

Their decent operators, but never proven themselves elite for a sustained period.

Lets put it this way, I give Curry more of a chance against Leonard than I do Spinks/Karmazin/Ouma/Phillips etc over Oscar.

Guys like Oscar and Floyd, who skim over divisions, never clear out divisions, and therefore never really establish themselves as a true dominant force.

Fights are about styles - and I think Karmazin would have given Oscar problems based on his style. Remember that Oscar didn't actually beat very many proper career 154 lbers.

Do you honestly think that Oscar would have beaten Winky Wright at 154 - I for one think he would have gotten spanked. Oscar moved up to 154 because he couldn't make 147 comfortably any more, but he was by no means a big 154 lber.

So to claim Oscar would have beaten everyone in the division based on his couple of wins over genuine 154 lbers is rather ludicrous.

In fact, the only genuine career 154 lber he fought was Castillejo - all the others Vargas, Campas, Mosley and Mayorga, and of course Floyd were Welterweights and below how had moved up for a variety of reasons.

Neither Mosley nor Mayweather would have been able to clear out 154, because they weren't true light middleweights.

Just because the public think Karmazin for instance was a level below Oscar, doesn't neccessarily mean that Oscar wins automatically. Public opinion doesn't win fights.

[stujones]

Vargas not a light middle???!!!???!!!??!!! ONE time in his career he was inside the Welter limit... for his second fight. Infact BEFORE moving into championship class - Before his fight with Winky and all, he'd fought more as a Middleweight than as a Welterweight. He was a MASSIVE Light Middle. To call him a Welter is a bit like saying John Murray is a Super Feather, Naz is a flyweight and DLH is a Super Feather.

As for Winky...I agree, the ONE Light Middle I think had the talent to give DLH trouble. The rest of the belt holders were not in DLH's class, and never proved it. The lost or struggled to guys DLH beat handily. However, when Floyd moved up to 154 - Winky was fighting at Light Heavy. Infact, when DLH returned to 154 after his gamble at Middleweight - Winky was up in weight. and lets be honest, I aint saying Oscar is some saint but Winky was a very hard person to negotiate with during the later part of his career.

DLH vs Winky would have been a tough fight to call. I don't think Winky would have had the power to hurt Oscar. Oscar was a strength at 154 was underated - he out strengthend Vargas. Middleweight was a step to far, but for me some of his performances at 154 were amongst his best.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Vargas not a light middle???!!!???!!!??!!! ONE time in his career he was inside the Welter limit... for his second fight. Infact BEFORE moving into championship class - Before his fight with Winky and all, he'd fought more as a Middleweight than as a Welterweight. He was a MASSIVE Light Middle. To call him a Welter is a bit like saying John Murray is a Super Feather, Naz is a flyweight and DLH is a Super Feather.

As for Winky...I agree, the ONE Light Middle I think had the talent to give DLH trouble. The rest of the belt holders were not in DLH's class, and never proved it. The lost or struggled to guys DLH beat handily. However, when Floyd moved up to 154 - Winky was fighting at Light Heavy. Infact, when DLH returned to 154 after his gamble at Middleweight - Winky was up in weight. and lets be honest, I aint saying Oscar is some saint but Winky was a very hard person to negotiate with during the later part of his career.

DLH vs Winky would have been a tough fight to call. I don't think Winky would have had the power to hurt Oscar. Oscar was a strength at 154 was underated - he out strengthend Vargas. Middleweight was a step to far, but for me some of his performances at 154 were amongst his best.

Vargas was forced to move up in weight - he had an underactive thyroid and just couldn't shift the weight.

Not saying the fight could have been made, but surely you'd agree that Oscar never proved himself the dominant force in the division?

[Counter-puncher]

DLH vs Winky would have been a tough fight to call. I don't think Winky would have had the power to hurt Oscar. Oscar was a strength at 154 was underated - he out strengthend Vargas. Middleweight was a step to far, but for me some of his performances at 154 were amongst his best.

disagree stu. DLh out-quicked and out-slicked him for my money but as for strength, i would say that the fact DLH was only ever really effective at range, when Vargas couldn't put his body on him, speaks volumes for their relative strength. on a related note i would also say that Vargas is one of a very select group of fighters that Oscar ever beat on stamina, but not on strength IMO

[Autobarn]

I think Corey Spinks and Karmazin would have both had good chances of beating Oscar.

Based on? Losses to Castelejo (Karmazin) - who Oscar shut out... or tad controvesial wins over Mayorga (Spinks) - who Oscar destroyed.

They are both decent fighters - but lets be honest, had Oscar fought these there would have been huge criticisms as they are not in his league. Infact, there was a time when Karmazin was mandatory to Oscar and the match was discussed - it was met with widespread chorus of boo's on the various forums and talk of an "Oscarcot" was mentioned, much in the same way a "roycott" was done.

Their decent operators, but never proven themselves elite for a sustained period.

Lets put it this way, I give Curry more of a chance against Leonard than I do Spinks/Karmazin/Ouma/Phillips etc over Oscar.

Karmazin was very good. Unfotunately his habit of being methodical and starting slowly, and the terrible inactivity that comes with being a Don King fighter, made his time at the top short. I felt he beat Cstillejo, in a very good fight, away from home. Also had him beating Spinks, after a considerable payoff, in Spinks' backyard. Karmazin - at least in my book - did better v Spinks than Jermain Taylor did, because however long it too, he figured out Spinks. Whereas Taylor never seemed to figure anything out v Cory.

Karmazin could have been a tough fight for DLH, but the Karmazins of the world don't have too much choice when and where they fight, whereas the Oscars can make up the rules as they go along. Karmazin showed his potential when he battered touted Kassim Ouma, in a horribly one sided fight. He seemed to do Ouma better than the much bigger/faster Taylor did, also.

[Deserter]

Karmazin was very good. Unfotunately his habit of being methodical and starting slowly, and the terrible inactivity that comes with being a Don King fighter, made his time at the top short. I felt he beat Cstillejo, in a very good fight, away from home. Also had him beating Spinks, after a considerable payoff, in Spinks' backyard. Karmazin - at least in my book - did better v Spinks than Jermain Taylor did, because however long it too, he figured out Spinks. Whereas Taylor never seemed to figure anything out v Cory.

Karmazin could have been a tough fight for DLH, but the Karmazins of the world don't have too much choice when and where they fight, whereas the Oscars can make up the rules as they go along. Karmazin showed his potential when he battered touted Kassim Ouma, in a horribly one sided fight. He seemed to do Ouma better than the much bigger/faster Taylor did, also.

Well said 'barn. I was gutted when Karmazin got banged out by Alex Bunema after absolutely dominating the fight as he'd already been jobbed throughout his career and this just seemed to cap his bad luck.

[ALI]

What I am saying is that had Floyd fought Margarito - there would have been criticisms of him fighting Maragrito and not "the man".

Who's "the man" you are reffering to? I'm scratching my head here as i recall that Margarito was considered to be "the man" at 147lbs even though he had no defining fight on his resume, but correct me if i am wrong on that. I remember not rating him as high as others at the time, but i am sure most thought of him as the man to beat at 147. Assuming my memory has served me well, then i am a tad confused as to why you believe he would have taken flack for fighting him, when most boxing fans were calling for it to happen.

At that time, Baldomir DESERVED to be in the ring with Floyd ahead of Margarito and Cotto.

Bollocks, Baldomir was a sack of sh*t and was given no chance of victory from just about everyone and his dog.

As for Hatton, whether people like it or not - he was "the man" at 140 from 2005 - 2009. Thats a pretty long time, and more of an accomplishment than Cotto has ever had (I don't think he has ever been "the man" yet - has never beaten the #1 in the devision). Sure, he didn't excell at his 147 debut, but he won and the large opinion poll claimed that the higher the weight, the more it suits Ricky as the "naturally larger man". Now he's even getting criticised for fighting Ricky. Untill he beat Cotto, Margarito's done nothing except lose to Santos, Williams. The only time Margarito proved himself elite was for 1 fight against Cotto.

Hatton was the man at 140, and was forced to step up to 147 to fight Mayweather. After Hattons only other showing at 147, most people were of the opinion that he was not suited to the higher weight.

As for Cotto, he may not be clearing out divisions but he is proving himself to be a credit to the sport by fighting the real fights. I am surprised you would want to take a pop at such a fighter!

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

What I am saying is that had Floyd fought Margarito - there would have been criticisms of him fighting Maragrito and not "the man".

Who's "the man" you are reffering to? I'm scratching my head here as i recall that Margarito was considered to be "the man" at 147lbs even though he had no defining fight on his resume, but correct me if i am wrong on that. I remember not rating him as high as others at the time, but i am sure most thought of him as the man to beat at 147. Assuming my memory has served me well, then i am a tad confused as to why you believe he would have taken flack for fighting him, when most boxing fans were calling for it to happen.

At that time, Baldomir DESERVED to be in the ring with Floyd ahead of Margarito and Cotto.

Bollocks, Baldomir was a sack of sh*t and was given no chance of victory from just about everyone and his dog.

As for Hatton, whether people like it or not - he was "the man" at 140 from 2005 - 2009. Thats a pretty long time, and more of an accomplishment than Cotto has ever had (I don't think he has ever been "the man" yet - has never beaten the #1 in the devision). Sure, he didn't excell at his 147 debut, but he won and the large opinion poll claimed that the higher the weight, the more it suits Ricky as the "naturally larger man". Now he's even getting criticised for fighting Ricky. Untill he beat Cotto, Margarito's done nothing except lose to Santos, Williams. The only time Margarito proved himself elite was for 1 fight against Cotto.

Hatton was the man at 140, and was forced to step up to 147 to fight Mayweather. After Hattons only other showing at 147, most people were of the opinion that he was not suited to the higher weight.

As for Cotto, he may not be clearing out divisions but he is proving himself to be a credit to the sport by fighting the real fights. I am surprised you would want to take a pop at such a fighter!

Baldomir was The man who beat the man, he was the undisputed linear champion, which resulted from all 3 belts been unified by Mayorga and Spinks, judah then beat Spinks, who ofcourse lost to Baldomir. At the time Baldomir had better wins than Margarito too with the likes of Judah, Clottey and Gatti on his resume. Winning the IBF/WBO straps would result in people saying he wasnt the real champion

Hatton was not forced to step up to 147, he had numerous offers prior to have the fight at 140, which he turned down time and again as testified by his own father. Mayweather said Hatton did not want to give up his 140lb Championship so thats why it was at 147.

[stujones]

When did Cotto first fight an elite fighter... I would say the first defining fight for Cotto was Judah the summer of 2007. Before then, Cotto had mixed with low end top tenners both before and during his championship era.

You can hardly call the likes of Pinto, Torres, Abdulaev, Bailey, Malignaggi (especially at the time), Urkal etc - the cream of the crop in that golden era that contained the likes of Gatti, Hatton, Harris, Mosley, Tszyu, Witter etc.

Since after Judah I applaud him - he's had 3 other BIG fights. But he did lose one of them. Before Judah his resume is a dad dissapointing for someone demanding that he should be catapulated to the Mayweather, DLH, Mosley bracket. Now he is up there... before December 2007 - Ricky had the better resume (by someway).

[chesh]

Baldomir was The man who beat the man, he was the undisputed linear champion, which resulted from all 3 belts been unified by Mayorga and Spinks, judah then beat Spinks, who ofcourse lost to Baldomir. At the time Baldomir had better wins than Margarito too with the likes of Judah, Clottey and Gatti on his resume. Winning the IBF/WBO straps would result in people saying he wasnt the real champion

Let's not forget that Mayweather, despite his love of money, had turned down $8 mill to fight Margarito, having previously not earned a purse higher than $3 mill. It is also arguable whether Baldo had better wins than Margarito. Judah can always find a way to lose a fight, Gatti wasn't a welterweight and Clottey was beating Baldo until he got DQ'd, whereas Margo beat him by wide UD.

At the time of Baldo-Floyd, Margo had beaten undefeated Kermit Cintron, Sergio Martinez and good fighters such as Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis and Antonio Diaz. I think Floyd saw Baldomir as the path of least resistance.

[Asterix]

Well said 'barn. I was gutted when Karmazin got banged out by Alex Bunema after absolutely dominating the fight as he'd already been jobbed throughout his career and this just seemed to cap his bad luck.

Same here. I enjoy watching Karmazin fight.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Baldomir was The man who beat the man, he was the undisputed linear champion, which resulted from all 3 belts been unified by Mayorga and Spinks, judah then beat Spinks, who ofcourse lost to Baldomir. At the time Baldomir had better wins than Margarito too with the likes of Judah, Clottey and Gatti on his resume. Winning the IBF/WBO straps would result in people saying he wasnt the real champion

Let's not forget that Mayweather, despite his love of money, had turned down $8 mill to fight Margarito, having previously not earned a purse higher than $3 mill. It is also arguable whether Baldo had better wins than Margarito. Judah can always find a way to lose a fight, Gatti wasn't a welterweight and Clottey was beating Baldo until he got DQ'd, whereas Margo beat him by wide UD.

At the time of Baldo-Floyd, Margo had beaten undefeated Kermit Cintron, Sergio Martinez and good fighters such as Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis and Antonio Diaz. I think Floyd saw Baldomir as the path of least resistance.

Thats not quite correct as Floyd got paid $5m against Judah. Supposedly signing to fight Margarito would have meant he would have been tied to Bob Arrum for 5 fights, earning $8m per fight as opposed to the $20m plus hes earned for each of his last 3. He also wouldnt have got the Delahoya with Arrum. I also wouldnt put much stock in him actually getting that $8m, as Arrum still hasnt paid all the money owing to him for the Gatti and Judah fights.

Baldomir was a weak undisputed champ, but becoming linear/undisputed Welter champ is worth something, he was getting criticism for facing Judah instead of Baldomir. What if HAtton got to Baldomir first? That would probably reduce Mayweathers share of the purse as he'd effectively be the challenger to the title. Yes I think Margarito is a tougher challenge than Baldomir but he just wasn't worth that contract. Lets not forget Margarito was offered the Mayweather fight after Judah lost and he turned it down, favouring his Manuel Gomez fight

[Deserter]

At the time of Baldo-Floyd, Margo had beaten undefeated Kermit Cintron, Sergio Martinez and good fighters such as Andrew "Six Heads" Lewis and Antonio Diaz. I think Floyd saw Baldomir as the path of least resistance.

Exactly. I can't recall a single person prior to the Baldomir-Floyd fight thinking Baldomir was a serious threat. That certainly wasn't the case with Margarito.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

When did Cotto first fight an elite fighter... I would say the first defining fight for Cotto was Judah the summer of 2007. Before then, Cotto had mixed with low end top tenners both before and during his championship era.

You can hardly call the likes of Pinto, Torres, Abdulaev, Bailey, Malignaggi (especially at the time), Urkal etc - the cream of the crop in that golden era that contained the likes of Gatti, Hatton, Harris, Mosley, Tszyu, Witter etc.

Since after Judah I applaud him - he's had 3 other BIG fights. But he did lose one of them. Before Judah his resume is a dad dissapointing for someone demanding that he should be catapulated to the Mayweather, DLH, Mosley bracket. Now he is up there... before December 2007 - Ricky had the better resume (by someway).

People forget this, Hatton-Mayweather was by far the bigger fight.

[Deserter]

When did Cotto first fight an elite fighter... I would say the first defining fight for Cotto was Judah the summer of 2007. Before then, Cotto had mixed with low end top tenners both before and during his championship era.

You can hardly call the likes of Pinto, Torres, Abdulaev, Bailey, Malignaggi (especially at the time), Urkal etc - the cream of the crop in that golden era that contained the likes of Gatti, Hatton, Harris, Mosley, Tszyu, Witter etc.

Since after Judah I applaud him - he's had 3 other BIG fights. But he did lose one of them. Before Judah his resume is a dad dissapointing for someone demanding that he should be catapulated to the Mayweather, DLH, Mosley bracket. Now he is up there... before December 2007 - Ricky had the better resume (by someway).

People forget this, Hatton-Mayweather was by far the bigger fight.

Maybe in revenue terms, but not by any other criteria.

[stujones]

6 months after Baldo vs Floyd - Margarito lost again. I aint saying Baldo was a fine champion. But he warranted his shot better more than Margarito. He was on a longer winning run than Margarito - Margarito had loss less than 2 years before Baldo vs Floyd (Baldo hadn't loss since 1998). He won a series of elimitators to get the WBC title shot (it wasn't a gifted voluntary by Judah as a tune up) - his wins over Judah, Gatti and Clottey are better IMO than Martinez (especially as a Welterweight), Cintron (still unproven) and 6 heads etc - and crucially he hadn't lost recently.

He was the WBC's fighter of 2006 and suprised many with his performance against Gatti. No, no-one thought he stood a chance vs Floyd - but its kind of like similar to the Haye situation at Heavy. Who will people think stood the best chance of beating Wladimir - Haye or Chagaev... most people would say Haye... who was most deserving of the fight.... Chagaev - done more.

[stujones]

When did Cotto first fight an elite fighter... I would say the first defining fight for Cotto was Judah the summer of 2007. Before then, Cotto had mixed with low end top tenners both before and during his championship era.

You can hardly call the likes of Pinto, Torres, Abdulaev, Bailey, Malignaggi (especially at the time), Urkal etc - the cream of the crop in that golden era that contained the likes of Gatti, Hatton, Harris, Mosley, Tszyu, Witter etc.

Since after Judah I applaud him - he's had 3 other BIG fights. But he did lose one of them. Before Judah his resume is a dad dissapointing for someone demanding that he should be catapulated to the Mayweather, DLH, Mosley bracket. Now he is up there... before December 2007 - Ricky had the better resume (by someway).

People forget this, Hatton-Mayweather was by far the bigger fight.

Maybe in revenue terms, but not by any other criteria.

In terms of Legacy and resumes also. If looking great beating up the likes of Lovemore Ndou is criteria for calling yourself the cream of a devision. They why isn't Andre Berto getting mention to fight Floyd now.

Cotto has never beaten a reigning and defending world champion. The one time he fought a reigning defending world champion - he lost.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

When did Cotto first fight an elite fighter... I would say the first defining fight for Cotto was Judah the summer of 2007. Before then, Cotto had mixed with low end top tenners both before and during his championship era.

You can hardly call the likes of Pinto, Torres, Abdulaev, Bailey, Malignaggi (especially at the time), Urkal etc - the cream of the crop in that golden era that contained the likes of Gatti, Hatton, Harris, Mosley, Tszyu, Witter etc.

- We can hardly take the above seriously. Gatti elite? Mosley a jr welt? Your heart a'twitter with Witter now is it?

Tszyu was a showtime fighter and was mostly injured after his dramatic Judah KO, plus had a mandatory. Hatton/Cotto was talked about, but Hatton was with Warren who eventually landed KT. Harris turned out to be a head case who was quickly booted out of the mix by Maussa who Cotto already beat.

Pinto/Maussa were huge undefeated jrwelts with ama wins over Cotto, promoted as grudge matches that he walked over. Torres undefeated with near perfect KO record, Malignaggi and Quintana also undefeated, and he did fight Mosley and beat him. All but Pinto panned out in spades as quality champs.

Seriously, stu, you should try watching boxing. You might like it and know what you talk of!

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

The Great Pinto and Viscous Maussa, yes Hatton's wins over the minor Kostya Tyszu and Castillo pales in comparison with them not being undefeated and all, thank you for enlightening us. In all seriousness Cotto never beat a top6 opponent at 140lbs, all the undefeated fighters he faced were undefeated because they hadn't fought anyone and none of them turned out to be any great shakes. Cotto didnt step up to fight a genuinely top opponent until he got in with the innactive Judah in 2007 and hes never beat a reigning champion.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

So to claim Oscar would have beaten everyone in the division based on his couple of wins over genuine 154 lbers is rather ludicrous.

In fact, the only genuine career 154 lber he fought was Castillejo - all the others Vargas, Campas, Mosley and Mayorga, and of course Floyd were Welterweights and below how had moved up for a variety of reasons.

- Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy, now there you go again. Vargas was a career jr mid, greatly damaging himself physically to make the weight in the end which he couldn't always do.

Sure, as a 19 yr old kid turning pro, in his first fights he was near the welt limit and fought a few welts, but he was an established LMid by the time he hit 20. Could've/should've moved to middle after the Oscar loss, but he had a terrible team behind him and wasn't the brightest in figuring that out. He'd have taken less beatings and his health would be better. Guy was leaving everthing he had in the sauna before the weighin by the end.

Interesting how much credit Mr. Pops got for beating guys two and three divisions above their original titles, yet Oscar gets no credit for fighting guys coming up, sometimes just a single division? Soft lads are vicious on this board I tell you, vicious.

Anyway, Roy Ring fighter of the 90s #1 p4p going into the 00s with Manny being Ring fighter of the 00s and finishing the 00sranked above MM for a longer period of time, so MM wasn't even greatest of his generation much less ever...........DUH!!!!!

[Tantum]

He woud lose to Leonard, Duran, Pryor and Hearns IMO, but not by shut-out. No way.

That is debatable.

I honestly can't see Leonard or Pryor beating him convincingly.

Hearns could get chinned in the later rounds as he did against Leonard.

I think Duran would have the best shot, but even that fight would not have a predetermined outcome.

[Deserter]

He woud lose to Leonard, Duran, Pryor and Hearns IMO, but not by shut-out. No way.

That is debatable.

I honestly can't see Leonard or Pryor beating him convincingly.

Hearns could get chinned in the later rounds as he did against Leonard.

I think Duran would have the best shot, but even that fight would not have a predetermined outcome.

You started losing me when you say you can't see Leonard beating him convincingly, but I was reduced to laughter when you suggest that Mayweather could stop Hearns??!!

[Tantum]

It's possible, but I'm not saying it's the likely outcome.

He has knocked out fighters with much better chins than Tommy.


The point I'm trying to make is a simple one. No fight between boxers of this level are easily pre-determined.

Anyone throwing out the possibilities of fighters this great pulling off a victory against a man who is a relative equal from another generation, is ridiculous.


I don't see any one in any of those fights as a heavy favorite.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

The Great Pinto and Viscous Maussa, yes Hatton's wins over the minor Kostya Tyszu and Castillo pales in comparison with them not being undefeated and all, thank you for enlightening us. In all seriousness Cotto never beat a top6 opponent at 140lbs, all the undefeated fighters he faced were undefeated because they hadn't fought anyone and none of them turned out to be any great shakes. Cotto didnt step up to fight a genuinely top opponent until he got in with the innactive Judah in 2007 and hes never beat a reigning champion.

- And you on a string of putting out stuff pre-imprinted with the bottom of the bird cage.

Cotto was a young up and coming prospect/contender when those fights made. Hatton was prime for KT/Castillo. As a young prospect he KOed Sosa who had challenged MM in going the distance, and as new champ he KOed Corley who also went 12 against prime MM. Same time frame, big advantage Cotto.

You damned your boy MM with your impressions of a bottom of a birdcage. Arum did a brillant job with Cotto, the only faded legend on his record was Bazan, instead matching him with like minded touted prospects and contenders, and carefully overlapping with MM contenders anticipating the build up to Cotto/MM when he matured. Instead we have your boy MM saying he won't fight Cotto, Marge, Mosley and won't even mention Williams lest that huge shadow lands a right hand from 6 miles out.

Judah another MM opponent making himself tough in going the distance, yet getting KOed by Cotto. No wonder MM don't want a fight, much safer reading about himself on the bottom of your birdcage!

[Deserter]

In terms of Legacy and resumes also. If looking great beating up the likes of Lovemore Ndou is criteria for calling yourself the cream of a devision. They why isn't Andre Berto getting mention to fight Floyd now.

Cotto has never beaten a reigning and defending world champion. The one time he fought a reigning defending world champion - he lost.

Nonsense. Not one single person at the time that Mayweather faced Hatton felt the Hitman represented a stiffer test for Floyd in the ring than Cotto would provide.