Vitali in the 1980s

[dempseyfire]

Watching awful Arreola land some punches on Vitali tonight convinced me the MUCH faster and skilled peak Witherspoons, Thomas, Coatzee etc. would all have very big chances vs him. Vitali is dominating Jenny Craig 101 level heavyweights.

[Goodnight, Irene]

This is not a peak Klitschko, to be fair (without forgetting what a truly sorry imitation Arreola ranks as a, "contender").

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Watching awful Arreola land some punches on Vitali tonight convinced me the MUCH faster and skilled peak Witherspoons, Thomas, Coatzee etc. would all have very big chances vs him. Vitali is dominating Jenny Craig 101 level heavyweights.

- None are appreciably faster than Arreola who was better conditioned staminawise than the ususal shape Spoon and Coetzee were in. Arreola is the Mexican Big George and stronger than all but Thomas.

FACT: Vitali is the best ever 37-38 yr old heavy who ever existed. There are precious few heavies who could ever actually have the chance to beat on him to any degree, so I suggest you vacate the board to go watch the highlights of Mr. Larry against Leon, Marvis, Frank, Zanon and the rest.

Mr. Larry wouldn't fight Thomas or Coetzee, I thought that was obvious.

[Robinson]

Holmes vs Coetzee was going to happen. It was a winnable big money fight for
Holmes. In 1982-83, Coetzee was more of a money fight for Holmes than
Cooney was, though less dangerous.
The politics and Coetzee's inconsitency ended his chances of fighting Holmes
when it was going to happen.

I wish Thomas vs Holmes had of happened. It sucks that it did not. Thomas
was a talent when he was at his best. Though he could be a yo yo at times
as far as his performance.

Vitali has the skills, chin and fundamentals to be an all time great. I think the
1980s was one of the more under appreciated (though it is getting its dues
now) for HW boxing. Vitali would face some serious challenges and would
win some...lose some...

[hhaehre]

Thomas too frail and he wouldn't be able to box comfortably on the outside he would have to bring the action to Klitschko which I think would turn out horribly.

Too frail eh ? That statement is so wrong and leads me to believe the only footage you have ever seen of Thomas is the knock out sequence against Tyson. The man was anything but frail, he had a great chin.

[hhaehre]

I think the
1980s was one of the more under appreciated (though it is getting its dues
now) for HW boxing. Vitali would face some serious challenges and would
win some...lose some...

The 1980s were NOT great for HW boxing, have we forgotten all the boring matches ? All the snore fests we were treated to by these enormous 'talents' ?

[Diamond WEAPON]

Always felt the younger Klitschko was, overall, the better fighter, & I still feel that way. He may not have been as reliable, but he's better.

That used to be the public consensus too, I remember, until he started getting KTFO here & there, while older bro plodded along with greater consistency (albeit, against lesser opposition).

Older Klitschko is the most robotic fighter to reach the top in years. He was always obscenely stiff, it never impressed me. He's a good fighter, with some glaring weaknesses, & great durability.

In my view, not good enough for all-time great status.

Yeah, his weaknesses are so glaring that he has the highest all-time KO ratio for a HW champ and he's never been behind in a fight, even against ATG Lewis, who totally ducked a rematch in favor of retirement. He's better than Wladimir and always has been and will be. Wlad only got the early attention as being more talented because he had a more traditional style, whereas Vitali has become like a supersized Floyd Mayweather Jr. with hands like wrecking balls. Vitali has dominated and destroyed nearly everyone he's fought. Wladimir got KTFO'd by guys whom he shouldn't have, 2 of whom Vitali toyed with, and got dropped repeatedly by Peter, whom a rusty Vitali made look like an amateur.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The World's smallest violin playing for the World's most over-rated Heavyweight.

Take the above post away. I'm not interested.

[Grimm]

Thomas too frail and he wouldn't be able to box comfortably on the outside he would have to bring the action to Klitschko which I think would turn out horribly.

Too frail eh ? That statement is so wrong and leads me to believe the only footage you have ever seen of Thomas is the knock out sequence against Tyson. The man was anything but frail, he had a great chin.

Seen Morrison,Witherspoon,Bowe,Berbick and Holyfield.

Actually only seen highlights from the Tyson fight.

I would say he is too frail to try and muscle his way in to fight Vitali.

You think he would be able to?

[hhaehre]

Thomas too frail and he wouldn't be able to box comfortably on the outside he would have to bring the action to Klitschko which I think would turn out horribly.

Too frail eh ? That statement is so wrong and leads me to believe the only footage you have ever seen of Thomas is the knock out sequence against Tyson. The man was anything but frail, he had a great chin.

Seen Morrison,Witherspoon,Bowe,Berbick and Holyfield.

Actually only seen highlights from the Tyson fight.

I would say he is too frail to try and muscle his way in to fight Vitali.

You think he would be able to?

Not a chance, Vitali would break him down for a mid to late round tko. Thomas was a one armed fighter with ok boxing skills and medium power but he did take a great shot. The shots he absorbed from Morrison would have leveled most fighters

[dempseyfire]

Watching awful Arreola land some punches on Vitali tonight convinced me the MUCH faster and skilled peak Witherspoons, Thomas, Coatzee etc. would all have very big chances vs him. Vitali is dominating Jenny Craig 101 level heavyweights.

- None are appreciably faster than Arreola who was better conditioned staminawise than the ususal shape Spoon and Coetzee were in. Arreola is the Mexican Big George and stronger than all but Thomas.

FACT: Vitali is the best ever 37-38 yr old heavy who ever existed. There are precious few heavies who could ever actually have the chance to beat on him to any degree, so I suggest you vacate the board to go watch the highlights of Mr. Larry against Leon, Marvis, Frank, Zanon and the rest.

Mr. Larry wouldn't fight Thomas or Coetzee, I thought that was obvious.

As fast? Stronger?
Spoon in his 'fat' form was in the 230s and was a naturally much larger man then Arreola. Arreola's amateur ass is 250 plus, slow, unskilled, the 'Mexican big George'?? . . . . Your ability to simply invent your own reality never ceases to amaze.

In regards to THomas, the Tyson, Morrison, and Holyfield fights are not a peak Pinklon, who had a rather brief prime. The version who fought Tillis, Witherspoon, Weaver . . .that fighter is much better than any of the fatsos Vitali has dominated. The ease with which an old Lennox with awful timing nailed Vitali with straight punches suggests the likes of Witherspoon and Thomas at their best would be landing their share as well. Am I saying Pinklon definitely beats Vitali? No, but you can't watch a guy dominate trash and then assume he does the same with much tougher comp.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Holmes vs Coetzee was going to happen. It was a winnable big money fight for
Holmes. In 1982-83, Coetzee was more of a money fight for Holmes than
Cooney was, though less dangerous.
The politics and Coetzee's inconsitency ended his chances of fighting Holmes
when it was going to happen.

- Hold it right there podnah, inconsistency didn't prevent Mr. Larry from defending against 19-8 Weaver, El Magnifico Zanon, LeDoux, Leon, El Toro Rodriguez.

There was no politics hindering the South African fights. Only politics came from Mr. Larry's tiny tempest he kept on brew in his tiny teacup. Fighters don't turn down career purses as was offered in South Africa save a few I won't bother to list since it's already outrageous enough to find out Mr. Larry had feets of clay in his day.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Watching awful Arreola land some punches on Vitali tonight convinced me the MUCH faster and skilled peak Witherspoons, Thomas, Coatzee etc. would all have very big chances vs him. Vitali is dominating Jenny Craig 101 level heavyweights.

- None are appreciably faster than Arreola who was better conditioned staminawise than the ususal shape Spoon and Coetzee were in. Arreola is the Mexican Big George and stronger than all but Thomas.

FACT: Vitali is the best ever 37-38 yr old heavy who ever existed. There are precious few heavies who could ever actually have the chance to beat on him to any degree, so I suggest you vacate the board to go watch the highlights of Mr. Larry against Leon, Marvis, Frank, Zanon and the rest.

Mr. Larry wouldn't fight Thomas or Coetzee, I thought that was obvious.

As fast? Stronger?
Spoon in his 'fat' form was in the 230s and was a naturally much larger man then Arreola. Arreola's amateur ass is 250 plus, slow, unskilled, the 'Mexican big George'?? . . . . Your ability to simply invent your own reality never ceases to amaze.

- Spooner was completely bowled over, pinned on the ropes and brutally knocked out by Bonecrusher Smith in a performance that could be described using utube lingo as "clubfighter whacks out a lazy boxer."

Arreola's style is that of a bull in a china shop.

As far as speed and strength goes, I'll quote Graham Houston as he broke down the fight and set his odds: "" The Arreola camp has brought conditioning coach Darryl Hudson, on board and it does seem that the challenger has taken his conditioning to a new level. At 251 pounds Arreola is lighter than for his last three fights although some way above the 238 pounds he weighed for his stoppage win over Chazz Witherspoon in his best performance............Arreola is dangerous, and despite his bulk he has good hand speed and combinations..............It seems that Klitschko has prepared himself for the possibility of a physical fight because he knows he will have to deal with bullying, crowding aggression..........Tom Loeffler, of K2 Promotions, told me that Klitschko worked a little more on strength training for Saturday’s fight. “He’s the strongest I’ve ever seen him,” ""

Need anyone but Dempsey need be reminded that Vitali was already one of the strongest heavies in history?

Spoon is more naturally talented than Arreola, but when did he ever come close to showing up in shape with a decent workrate save the Holmes fight? When did he ever use his strength in a fight to muscle up other fighters? He was a boxer, not a brawler, and a lazy one at that.

It may pain your supersized sitting apparatus to realize that Big George, Tony Galento, Willie Meehan, all became hugely popular fighters because of their considerable everyman bulk and ring prowess that made them the people's champions win, lose, or draw. Now El Grande Supremo's turn to shine in his everyman popularity. That's why Vitali chose the venue he did...........DUH!!!!

My reality is based on substance, but not so yours which is based on your elbows and opinions.

[BoxBuzz]

Well your arrogance is always entertaining there BRR

Let's proceed down this path in concrete terms. I think you've done this before but I'll ask in this thread.

Provide a list of five fighters you would have rather seen Larry defend the title against. I just want to review the list for reason-ability and to review those particular fighters actual progress in the wake of having no shot with Larry and see if it all adds up to your point. One possible argument on this is that sometimes challengers like to be challengers that "make claims" of wanting to face the champ but would rather talk than actually test themselves. They go about their lives with their cherished "what ifs" because that's all they ever really wanted. So I'm not sure that any of us can make the claim that just "any" of these potential fights could have been made for various reasons.

In the past we seem to often disagree, but I'd like to peruse your suggestion more thoughtfully if I might. We can switch threads on this one if you think it more appropriate.

I was at least moved by your admission that the first Liston Clay fight was on the level. Though the second fight smelled to high heaven I think you've demonstrated an openness to the concept that it stunk for reasons that perhaps can only be attributed to Liston himself. You don't seem to be purely a conspiratorial thinker....so I'm sort of drawn back to at least a few of the points you want to make along the way.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Well your arrogance is always entertaining there BRR

Let's proceed down this path in concrete terms. I think you've done this before but I'll ask in this thread.

Provide a list of five fighters you would have rather seen Larry defend the title against. I just want to review the list for reason-ability and to review those particular fighters actual progress in the wake of having no shot with Larry and see if it all adds up to your point.

- Let's start with his first defense against Evangelista. Obviously needed a soft touch after the controversial war with Norton, but it was Kenny as the last golden 4 of the 70s still standing, and he deserved better all through his career. Money would've been huge and you can trust me that would be Mr. Larry's last defense of that particular belt.

Since this is hypothetical and we know that never would happen in a billion lifetimes in a billion universes, lets give him Alfredo sauce and instead scratch baby Ocasio for Big John Tate. We know that the few good boxer types Mr. Larry faced caused him huge problems in Cooney, Spoon, and Williams such that it's reasonable to claim he was actually being outboxed. So could Tate.

Next up is Dokes circa late 82 instead of Tex Cobb. Instead Dokes KOed Weaver for his title.

Then we have Coetzee in late 83 when he first proposed to Mr. Larry who junks his WBC belt to take on Marvis instead. You gots to be kidding me that this is a top ten alltime heavy.

Finally, he could've fought the fighters scrapping over his WBC belt in 84, Page/Spoon rematch/Thomas instead of skipping over the whole of 84 until Nov when he fights Bonecrusher Who?

[BoxBuzz]

Ok..

you MAY be able to make the argument that in sum total your suggestions adds up to more total risk. However by following each of those careers one is not presented with a reasonable sense that things would be fundamentally different in terms of the course of history. None of those names are THE GUY that historians point to as the great "AVOIDED ONE". A case you MIGHT be able to make for say a fella like Harry Wills. By the way didin't Smith look better than the previous crop of bums vs Mike Tyson? So what's your beef with him at the end of the day?

If you sub your suggested names out for the ones you have a problem with, you would end up with a different debate. Since each of the bums in question would have an easier agenda sans Larry's beatings, they might produce better results in their wake....leaving you to wonder the very mirrored side of this.

It's just too slippery to get overly jazzed about IMHO.

In this case I think the Myth Busters would be inclined to disagree with you.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Just ask him to pick a winner in a prime-to-prime fight between Holmes & Holyfield.

His head'll explode, & we'll be done with him. I've had him on Ignore for some time, but, inexplicably to me, people keep biting on the bait & quoting him, making his sh!t visible.

[Robinson]

I think the
1980s was one of the more under appreciated (though it is getting its dues
now) for HW boxing. Vitali would face some serious challenges and would
win some...lose some...

The 1980s were NOT great for HW boxing, have we forgotten all the boring matches ? All the snore fests we were treated to by these enormous 'talents' ?

List me some of these 'snore fests' please ?
I know the 80s lacked the technical brilliance and excitement of Dempsey V Firpo...

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

I've had him on Ignore for some time, but, inexplicably to me, people keep biting on the bait & quoting him, making his sh!t visible.

- Ho-Ho, we're so glad you joined the Union of Soft Lads and Washerwomen. Being a dart board in your monthly pantyswap meetings is a high honour indeed.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

By the way didin't Smith look better than the previous crop of bums vs Mike Tyson?

- No, Tyson crushed the bone out of him with the first landed punch. Smith went into survival mode, scared witless to throw a single punch when he could grab and hold on for dear life without being DQed. He never feared Mr. Larry like he feared Tyson.

[hhaehre]

I think the
1980s was one of the more under appreciated (though it is getting its dues
now) for HW boxing. Vitali would face some serious challenges and would
win some...lose some...

The 1980s were NOT great for HW boxing, have we forgotten all the boring matches ? All the snore fests we were treated to by these enormous 'talents' ?

List me some of these 'snore fests' please ?
I know the 80s lacked the technical brilliance and excitement of Dempsey V Firpo...

How about any combination of Page, Whiterspoon and Tubbs ? How about Thomas-Berbick ? How about Holmes taking on the great Lucien Rodriguez or beating on the human punching bag that was Tex Cobb for 15 rounds ?
Let me turn it around, how many great fights did these guys take part in ? Unless you enjoy watching a couple of fatsos leaning on each other for 15 rounds I'd say the '80's hw scene can be quickly forgotten.

But of course you may prefer the technical brilliance of Witherspoon-Tubbs over the crude savagery of Dempsey-Firpo. On that note I have some great footage of Sven Otke that I will let you take of my hands for a reasonable sum in case you are ready for some more technical brilliance.

[m1kee50]

I'm sure the topic has been done before, is that why the obvious 80's fighter - Tyson - isnt mentioned?

[BoxBuzz]

By the way didin't Smith look better than the previous crop of bums vs Mike Tyson?

- No, Tyson crushed the bone out of him with the first landed punch. Smith went into survival mode, scared witless to throw a single punch when he could grab and hold on for dear life without being DQed. He never feared Mr. Larry like he feared Tyson.

"survival" is the "better" of which I was speaking.

[Robinson]

?

List me some of these 'snore fests' please ?
I know the 80s lacked the technical brilliance and excitement of Dempsey V Firpo...

How about any combination of Page, Whiterspoon and Tubbs ? How about Thomas-Berbick ? How about Holmes taking on the great Lucien Rodriguez or beating on the human punching bag that was Tex Cobb for 15 rounds ?
Let me turn it around, how many great fights did these guys take part in ? Unless you enjoy watching a couple of fatsos leaning on each other for 15 rounds I'd say the '80's hw scene can be quickly forgotten.

But of course you may prefer the technical brilliance of Witherspoon-Tubbs over the crude savagery of Dempsey-Firpo. On that note I have some great footage of Sven Otke that I will let you take of my hands for a reasonable sum in case you are ready for some more technical brilliance.[/quote]


Thomas-Berbick is a good fight. I enjoyed that one a lot.
Holmes vs Rodgrigues was a snoozer I must say, but I can think of a lot of
other title defences that were as boring.
Holmes vs Cobbs was not boring, as it was one sided.
I did not mind Witherspoon-Tubbs though if they were in better shape I think it
would have been a lot better a fight.
I keep reading and hearing how these fights from the 80s are so average and
boring, yet when I watch them for my self I enjoy them.
Maybe I am not a true boxing fan?

[hhaehre]

?

List me some of these 'snore fests' please ?
I know the 80s lacked the technical brilliance and excitement of Dempsey V Firpo...

How about any combination of Page, Whiterspoon and Tubbs ? How about Thomas-Berbick ? How about Holmes taking on the great Lucien Rodriguez or beating on the human punching bag that was Tex Cobb for 15 rounds ?
Let me turn it around, how many great fights did these guys take part in ? Unless you enjoy watching a couple of fatsos leaning on each other for 15 rounds I'd say the '80's hw scene can be quickly forgotten.

But of course you may prefer the technical brilliance of Witherspoon-Tubbs over the crude savagery of Dempsey-Firpo. On that note I have some great footage of Sven Otke that I will let you take of my hands for a reasonable sum in case you are ready for some more technical brilliance.

Thomas-Berbick is a good fight. I enjoyed that one a lot.
Holmes vs Rodgrigues was a snoozer I must say, but I can think of a lot of
other title defences that were as boring.
Holmes vs Cobbs was not boring, as it was one sided.
I did not mind Witherspoon-Tubbs though if they were in better shape I think it
would have been a lot better a fight.
I keep reading and hearing how these fights from the 80s are so average and
boring, yet when I watch them for my self I enjoy them.
Maybe I am not a true boxing fan?

Ok, I'll grant you Thomas-Berbick, it should not have been on my list, but Whiterspoon - Tubbs ? That has to be one of the crappiest hw title fights in history. As for the 80s heavyweights they were not as bad as they were made out to be at the time but I really think they are getting too much credit these days. I always liked to watch Weaver and the South Africans, they were usually exiting. Holmes for me ranks as maybe the most boring champion of all time and the Cobb fight had precious few of the qualities I look for in a fight.