Henry Cooper and Muhammed Ali revisited. What if............

[Controversial]

For arguments sake what do you think the outcome would have been if Ali was decked seconds into the 4th round, as opposed to the end of the round?

Do you think Ali would have survived or would Cooper have gone on and stopped him?

[hhaehre]

Interesting question. He amazingly got up and finished the round vs. Frazier in 1971 so you would think he'd be able to do the same against Cooper but he actually looked more hurt from the Cooper left hook. My guess is that he would have weathered the storm against Cooper as well.

[Goodnight, Irene]

There's no way, in my view, Ali's toughness & general ring savvy can be compared between '71 & '63. Of course, there's limited comparison between a Joe Frazier & Henry Cooper, too --- even a tiring Frazier & a fresh Cooper.

I thought about this for a little bit. It's really a pretty impossible question. "I wasn't hurt, but I was dazed..." so Ali says. When he looks up at Dundee in the corner, it really does appear to be a young man divorced from his senses.

It's awful tough to say. Cooper was a gnarled & ring-intelligent veteran of twenty-nine, & I'm sure he'd like to think he could put away any 18-fight 21-year-old, no matter who they eventually became. Clay lacked the generalship of later years, but he was still fairly savvy in the ring, even when presented with problems.

One thing I do know for sure --- if Cooper does put him away, his next fight ain't against Sonny Liston. Count on that. Perhaps an off-shoot question of some worth could be who Liston's next opponent would be, if in place of Clay? Wouldn't be Cooper, as we all know.

[Robinson]

Patterson destroyed Cooper thereafter and Liston would have done
the same. So if he did win and beat Ali.... his next BIG fight would
not have gone as well.

Ali was caught nicely by Cooper. Boxing has it's fundamentals for
a reason, and great talents like Ali are often gifted enough to
break these rules. The trouble is...you get caught some times.

Who is to say what would of happened if Dundee had not torn
the glove. But one thing for certain is that Ali had superb powers
of recovery, was always in good shape in his youth, and was a
big athletic man. He no doubt would have clinched and tied the
much smaller Cooper up and survived to win the fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"No doubt?"

None, whatsoever? Truly?

[Controversial]

Patterson destroyed Cooper thereafter and Liston would have done
the same. So if he did win and beat Ali.... his next BIG fight would
not have gone as well.

Ali was caught nicely by Cooper. Boxing has it's fundamentals for
a reason, and great talents like Ali are often gifted enough to
break these rules. The trouble is...you get caught some times.

Who is to say what would of happened if Dundee had not torn
the glove. But one thing for certain is that Ali had superb powers
of recovery, was always in good shape in his youth, and was a
big athletic man. He no doubt would have clinched and tied the
much smaller Cooper up and survived to win the fight.

That wasn't the question. Ali was floored with seconds to go in the round. What if he was floored seconds into the round. He would have over 2.30 minutes to survive and he looked pretty hurt to me. Do you think he would have survived the round?

[Controversial]

Another interesting point that blows a lot of arguments out the water when people talk about fighters like Dempsey and Marciano not standing a chance against the bigger guys. Cooper weighed just 185lbs (13 stone 2lbs) when he flattened Ali.

According to Cooper he was actually a lot lighter than that because he wore weights to make himself appear heavier when they had the weigh in.

Just goes to show that the smaller guys could certainly hurt the bigger ones !!

[Robinson]

You do not need to explain to me about smaller guys being able
to handle bigger ones. I know about this well enough.

By no doubt I meant...... A good chance ;) I should have used better
wording.

Yes Ali was pretty hurt. But who knows how he would have powered on.
In any case one can safely argue that he did have good powers
of recovery. Ali was on queer street courtesy of Cooper and there is
a good chance Ali would have recovered BUT who really knows...in any
case it was a shitty deal for Cooper.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Patterson destroyed Cooper thereafter and Liston would have done
the same. So if he did win and beat Ali.... his next BIG fight would
not have gone as well.

Ali was caught nicely by Cooper. Boxing has it's fundamentals for
a reason, and great talents like Ali are often gifted enough to
break these rules. The trouble is...you get caught some times.

Who is to say what would of happened if Dundee had not torn
the glove. But one thing for certain is that Ali had superb powers
of recovery, was always in good shape in his youth, and was a
big athletic man. He no doubt would have clinched and tied the
much smaller Cooper up and survived to win the fight.

- What does Liston and Patterson have to do with Cooper knocking out Ali?

Arguably he did and was cheated. Dundee said so in numerous interviews backed up by other observers.

Ali wasn't a clincher back then, he was actually quite the fool as far as boxing acumen goes. He was all talent and no brains. Cooper would've knocked him out had the fight continued. He didn't even have to take a count because of the bell, but if he had, that was already it, his eyes were blasted to the back of his noggin. I'm sitting here looking at a pic of him having made his corner at least 15 sec if not 45 sec later, and he looks like something out of a zombie movie.

Ref would've waved the fight, hell, you ever see how quick they stop fights in England these days?

OK, with Dundee's assistance aided by clueless Brit officials, young Clay dodged a bullet which turned out to be a bonus. Sonny saw the fight and was looking for a creampuff defense he could hit the bars after training everyday. Otherwise young Clay might have been 2-4 yrs, maybe longer before getting a title shot. Instead, a legend was made.

Give it up, he was Ali, not Superman.

[Robinson]

Ha now I come across as the Ali-phile :)

No he was not a super man, and yes like I mentioned he broke
alot of the boxing rules as far as good form and fundamentals
go. This was because he had alot of natural talent, athleticism,
and good size-speed mix. In any case, while he did "dodge the bullet"
simply assuming he would have been finished is the other side
of me saying he could have survived the round.

Ali did display in all of his fights an ability to recover well from
a punch.

I mentioned Patterson and Liston, becuase had Cooper scored
the win over Ali his fate would have been sealed in his next fight
against either one of these men. Hence me mentioning that in
my original post...


Oh and I heard in a song that Ali was a super man !!!

[granberry]

[yancey]

For arguments sake what do you think the outcome would have been if Ali was decked seconds into the 4th round, as opposed to the end of the round?

Do you think Ali would have survived or would Cooper have gone on and stopped him?

To answer the question, Ali would have survived the round and gone on to stop Cooper in the same fashion.

[granberry]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnEDM4EC5kw

[Controversial]

For what its worth I think Ali would have been stopped. He was out of it, you only have to watch him trying to stand up in the corner and being pushed back down, he was clearly stunned and didn't know what he was doing. To last 2 and a half minutes in that condition would have been very hard and one more 'Enry 'Ammer would have sparked him.

[bollox]

He would have gotten up and ran around for a while, evading 'Enery's followups and the ending would have been the same

[The Great John L]

There's no way, in my view, Ali's toughness & general ring savvy can be compared between '71 & '63. Of course, there's limited comparison between a Joe Frazier & Henry Cooper, too --- even a tiring Frazier & a fresh Cooper.

I thought about this for a little bit. It's really a pretty impossible question. "I wasn't hurt, but I was dazed..." so Ali says. When he looks up at Dundee in the corner, it really does appear to be a young man divorced from his senses.

It's awful tough to say. Cooper was a gnarled & ring-intelligent veteran of twenty-nine, & I'm sure he'd like to think he could put away any 18-fight 21-year-old, no matter who they eventually became. Clay lacked the generalship of later years, but he was still fairly savvy in the ring, even when presented with problems.

One thing I do know for sure --- if Cooper does put him away, his next fight ain't against Sonny Liston. Count on that. Perhaps an off-shoot question of some worth could be who Liston's next opponent would be, if in place of Clay? Wouldn't be Cooper, as we all know.

Excellent post.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Thank you.

[The Great John L]

Well everyone always forgets that there is a lot more to boxing than simply physical skills, and the young Ali did not have the same savvy and constitution that the older Ali had.

[Ezzard]

Cooper has a good chance.

Some of the posters saying it would make no difference are wrong. It has to make a difference. Ali could have got up and won in exactly the same way but...

If it happens 30 secs into the round Ali is going to take more punishment. This will impact on the fight. It simply has to.

A lot would depend on the ref. I'd say it would be 50-50.

[fatcity69]

Cooper has a good chance.

Some of the posters saying it would make no difference are wrong. It has to make a difference. Ali could have got up and won in exactly the same way but...

If it happens 30 secs into the round Ali is going to take more punishment. This will impact on the fight. It simply has to.

A lot would depend on the ref. I'd say it would be 50-50.

Well a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the main reason Ali was caught was that it was coming to the end of the round and he relaxed a bit and got himself caught on the ropes. All though his career Ali was extremely switched on at the begining of rounds, cooper caught a slightly over confident Ali napping.
As for the 'long break' that some in here keep carping about, it was less than 10 seconds and it was due to Alis glove needing changing, and the glove was badly split before Ali was knocked down, so even if he hadnt been floored Ali would still have needed a new glove during the break.
Looking at ALis career all through I dont see him ever being koed by anyone, he had too good a chin and was too stubborn to ever let himself get koed. Thats why Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Shavers and Holmes failed to stop him with shots that would have koed others... and thats why I dont see cooper koing him under any circumstances.

[granberry]

Well a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the main reason Ali was caught was that it was coming to the end of the round and he relaxed a bit and got himself caught on the ropes.

That's a winner.

LOL

[fatcity69]

Well a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the main reason Ali was caught was that it was coming to the end of the round and he relaxed a bit and got himself caught on the ropes.

That's a winner.

LOL

Erm no, its fact actually.

[granberry]

Well a lot of people seem to be forgetting that the main reason Ali was caught was that it was coming to the end of the round and he relaxed a bit and got himself caught on the ropes.

That's a winner.

LOL

Erm no, its fact actually.

In the world inhabited by the devout members of The Religion of Ali

all excuses for their hero are 'facts.'

"He was too young then."

"He was too old then."

"He wasn't trying."

"He tripped over his shoelace."

"If you say he missed a punch you are a racist."

etc blah blah blah

[Collins2000]

blah blah blah

That's a direct quote from one of granberry's Bert Sugar books.

Watch old bitter granberry writhe in anger at the mention of his hero's name.

Dance for us rummy.

[fatcity69]

Maybe Cranberry should switch to Grapefruit juice, the bitterness kind of suits him