Marciano-Quarry...

[Robinson]

Intriguing matchup, to my thinking.

What happens?

What would be Jerry's best fight plan?

Not to show up.

And this is something a fighter like Quarry or any fighter would never think.

Marciano is not the absolute God that we get told. Fighters look at him and
like any opponent that they could face they see his strengths and weaknesses.
I think Quarry loses because he is the more inconsistent and lacks the conditioning
and heart that made Marciano great.
Even in a loss, I think it would be a good fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I don't know about you, but I hear more negative feedback, on the whole, than positive, where Marciano's concerned.

[Robinson]

I generally come across alot more positive. The man was great and
self driven. That warrants praise and the accolades he gets. BUt...
I do not envision in my boxing minds eye, him steam rolling Norton,
Quarry, Patterson etc in 1.

[Ezzard]

On the flip side I genuinely KNOW Marciano was protected by the Al Weill, the Madison Square Garden club and the IBC.

Would love to know more about this. I know you've extensively researched a book, Klompton, any chance you might share what you know.

[yancey]

Intriguing matchup, to my thinking.

What happens?

What would be Jerry's best fight plan?

Not to show up.

And this is something a fighter like Quarry or any fighter would never think.

Marciano is not the absolute God that we get told. Fighters look at him and
like any opponent that they could face they see his strengths and weaknesses.
I think Quarry loses because he is the more inconsistent and lacks the conditioning
and heart that made Marciano great.
Even in a loss, I think it would be a good fight.

Agree.

Quarry gives him a good fight.

[klompton]

Al Weill served as matchmaker for the Garden. While Marciano was coming up and after he was champion Weill was supposed to have quit this position, officially, because it represented a conflict of interes. Unofficially he maintained that position even after the IBC purchased the Garden club. Thus Al Weill and by default Rocky Marciano, were privvy to preferential treatment by officials and by the IBC which at that time was the most powerful boxing organization in the world. Furthermore it gave Weill an amazing amount of flexibility in picking and choosing Marciano's opposition. This may seem like business as usual today but back then it wasnt and the IBC (which was as dirty as it gets) was eventually broken up by the federal government. In essence Marciano was the house fighter and when research some of the dirty business Weill was in you can understand that some of criticisms of Marciano's glossy record may be more than warranted.

[Ezzard]

Al Weill served as matchmaker for the Garden. While Marciano was coming up and after he was champion Weill was supposed to have quit this position, officially, because it represented a conflict of interes. Unofficially he maintained that position even after the IBC purchased the Garden club. Thus Al Weill and by default Rocky Marciano, were privvy to preferential treatment by officials and by the IBC which at that time was the most powerful boxing organization in the world. Furthermore it gave Weill an amazing amount of flexibility in picking and choosing Marciano's opposition. This may seem like business as usual today but back then it wasnt and the IBC (which was as dirty as it gets) was eventually broken up by the federal government. In essence Marciano was the house fighter and when research some of the dirty business Weill was in you can understand that some of criticisms of Marciano's glossy record may be more than warranted.

Many thanks for sharing what you know. Much appreciated.

[Dempsey1238]

Al Weill served as matchmaker for the Garden. While Marciano was coming up and after he was champion Weill was supposed to have quit this position, officially, because it represented a conflict of interes. Unofficially he maintained that position even after the IBC purchased the Garden club. Thus Al Weill and by default Rocky Marciano, were privvy to preferential treatment by officials and by the IBC which at that time was the most powerful boxing organization in the world. Furthermore it gave Weill an amazing amount of flexibility in picking and choosing Marciano's opposition. This may seem like business as usual today but back then it wasnt and the IBC (which was as dirty as it gets) was eventually broken up by the federal government. In essence Marciano was the house fighter and when research some of the dirty business Weill was in you can understand that some of criticisms of Marciano's glossy record may be more than warranted.

He was not proctected when he first started out. You dont thown your suppose top fighters champions to be when there 4-0 against a guys with 16-0 and 23-0 records.

Perhaps once Weill saw something in him, he was protected, but sooner or later he had to match Rocky up against foes like Rex Layne, Joe Louis who was still winning and a title shot match with Harry Kid Mathews. Non of these fights were made to protect Rocky. It was either win or lose, and if lose, fail to get a title shot.

Once he won the title from Walcott, Protected fighters dont rematch the former champ who gave him hell in the first fight.

Protected fighters dont rematch a guy who almost won the first fight, and almost loseing by a mere 3 points.

Protected fighters dont fight greats like Ezzard Charles, and after a great first fight, jump right into a rematch.

And protected fighters dont fight Archie Moore who was along with Rocky Marciano cleaning house on the 1950's heavyweights.

If you want to see a fighter whos rein for the most part was protected, look at Patterson's title rein.

Had Al felt his fighter was not the best perhaps, like Cus did for Patterson, Marciano might have defended against the lower rank contenders and even defind against guys in there first pro fights.

What did Rademacher do to earn a title shot that Eddie Machen or Folly didnt do??

[granberry]

He was not proctected when he first started out. You dont thown your suppose top fighters champions to be when there 4-0 against a guys with 16-0 and 23-0 records.

Perhaps once Weill saw something in him, he was protected, but sooner or later he had to match Rocky up against foes like Rex Layne, Joe Louis who was still winning and a title shot match with Harry Kid Mathews. Non of these fights were made to protect Rocky. It was either win or lose, and if lose, fail to get a title shot.

Once he won the title from Walcott, Protected fighters dont rematch the former champ who gave him hell in the first fight.

Protected fighters dont rematch a guy who almost won the first fight, and almost loseing by a mere 3 points.

Protected fighters dont fight greats like Ezzard Charles, and after a great first fight, jump right into a rematch.

And protected fighters dont fight Archie Moore who was along with Rocky Marciano cleaning house on the 1950's heavyweights.

If you want to see a fighter whos rein for the most part was protected, look at Patterson's title rein.

Had Al felt his fighter was not the best perhaps, like Cus did for Patterson, Marciano might have defended against the lower rank contenders and even defind against guys in there first pro fights.

What did Rademacher do to earn a title shot that Eddie Machen or Folly didnt do??

Good post.

[Robinson]

I do not think that marciano was protected, well atleast it does not
seem that way looking over his career as an arm chair observer. He
fought nearly all the guys around, stayed pretty active and gave
the public his best. He was always in shape and went for the KO>
what more can you ask for ??

He retired smart and sure while he was champ he had potential opponents
out awaiting a shot, but his reign was all to brief and he retired when he
perhaps a few more years left...and then who knows.

As much as I like Patterson, I think as mentioned above he was one of
the sports more protected fighters, short of drawing a colour line...

[klompton]

Al Weill served as matchmaker for the Garden. While Marciano was coming up and after he was champion Weill was supposed to have quit this position, officially, because it represented a conflict of interes. Unofficially he maintained that position even after the IBC purchased the Garden club. Thus Al Weill and by default Rocky Marciano, were privvy to preferential treatment by officials and by the IBC which at that time was the most powerful boxing organization in the world. Furthermore it gave Weill an amazing amount of flexibility in picking and choosing Marciano's opposition. This may seem like business as usual today but back then it wasnt and the IBC (which was as dirty as it gets) was eventually broken up by the federal government. In essence Marciano was the house fighter and when research some of the dirty business Weill was in you can understand that some of criticisms of Marciano's glossy record may be more than warranted.

He was not proctected when he first started out. You dont thown your suppose top fighters champions to be when there 4-0 against a guys with 16-0 and 23-0 records.

Perhaps once Weill saw something in him, he was protected, but sooner or later he had to match Rocky up against foes like Rex Layne, Joe Louis who was still winning and a title shot match with Harry Kid Mathews. Non of these fights were made to protect Rocky. It was either win or lose, and if lose, fail to get a title shot.

Once he won the title from Walcott, Protected fighters dont rematch the former champ who gave him hell in the first fight.

Protected fighters dont rematch a guy who almost won the first fight, and almost loseing by a mere 3 points.

Protected fighters dont fight greats like Ezzard Charles, and after a great first fight, jump right into a rematch.

And protected fighters dont fight Archie Moore who was along with Rocky Marciano cleaning house on the 1950's heavyweights.

If you want to see a fighter whos rein for the most part was protected, look at Patterson's title rein.

Had Al felt his fighter was not the best perhaps, like Cus did for Patterson, Marciano might have defended against the lower rank contenders and even defind against guys in there first pro fights.

What did Rademacher do to earn a title shot that Eddie Machen or Folly didnt do??

Harry Kid Matthews was a light heavyweight. His manager Doc Hurley KNEW he was going to lose to marciano but took the fight rather fight Maxim because it was bigger paycheck. Thats a fact. Joe Louis was shot, not to mention he had only recently gotten out of an insane asylum. Despite that fact Louis, using nothing but his jab managed to break Marciano's nose and knock out his two front teeth. Come on man who are you trying to kid? Furthermore, why even bring up Walcott 2? that fight was highly suspaect at the time and remains so. MANY people in the press felt it was adive by Walcott. You can argue he wasnt protected but its factually false. Period. The guy was owned and operated by the IBC. You can argue all you want about who he fought but the guys he was fighting were either blown up light heavies, or faded greats, or both. Its certainly not the murderers row it appears and Al Weill, as manager/matchmaker with the backing of the most pwerful boxing organization in the world kept it that way.

[Dempsey1238]

Al Weill served as matchmaker for the Garden. While Marciano was coming up and after he was champion Weill was supposed to have quit this position, officially, because it represented a conflict of interes. Unofficially he maintained that position even after the IBC purchased the Garden club. Thus Al Weill and by default Rocky Marciano, were privvy to preferential treatment by officials and by the IBC which at that time was the most powerful boxing organization in the world. Furthermore it gave Weill an amazing amount of flexibility in picking and choosing Marciano's opposition. This may seem like business as usual today but back then it wasnt and the IBC (which was as dirty as it gets) was eventually broken up by the federal government. In essence Marciano was the house fighter and when research some of the dirty business Weill was in you can understand that some of criticisms of Marciano's glossy record may be more than warranted.

He was not proctected when he first started out. You dont thown your suppose top fighters champions to be when there 4-0 against a guys with 16-0 and 23-0 records.

Perhaps once Weill saw something in him, he was protected, but sooner or later he had to match Rocky up against foes like Rex Layne, Joe Louis who was still winning and a title shot match with Harry Kid Mathews. Non of these fights were made to protect Rocky. It was either win or lose, and if lose, fail to get a title shot.

Once he won the title from Walcott, Protected fighters dont rematch the former champ who gave him hell in the first fight.

Protected fighters dont rematch a guy who almost won the first fight, and almost loseing by a mere 3 points.

Protected fighters dont fight greats like Ezzard Charles, and after a great first fight, jump right into a rematch.

And protected fighters dont fight Archie Moore who was along with Rocky Marciano cleaning house on the 1950's heavyweights.

If you want to see a fighter whos rein for the most part was protected, look at Patterson's title rein.

Had Al felt his fighter was not the best perhaps, like Cus did for Patterson, Marciano might have defended against the lower rank contenders and even defind against guys in there first pro fights.

What did Rademacher do to earn a title shot that Eddie Machen or Folly didnt do??

Harry Kid Matthews was a light heavyweight. His manager Doc Hurley KNEW he was going to lose to marciano but took the fight rather fight Maxim because it was bigger paycheck. Thats a fact. Joe Louis was shot, not to mention he had only recently gotten out of an insane asylum. Despite that fact Louis, using nothing but his jab managed to break Marciano's nose and knock out his two front teeth. Come on man who are you trying to kid? Furthermore, why even bring up Walcott 2? that fight was highly suspaect at the time and remains so. MANY people in the press felt it was adive by Walcott. You can argue he wasnt protected but its factually false. Period. The guy was owned and operated by the IBC. You can argue all you want about who he fought but the guys he was fighting were either blown up light heavies, or faded greats, or both. Its certainly not the murderers row it appears and Al Weill, as manager/matchmaker with the backing of the most pwerful boxing organization in the world kept it that way.

Lightheavyweight or not, Harry Kid Matthews, like Rocky was on route to a title shot with Walcott, Marciano knock him off the path.

Joe Louis didnt go INSANE until AFTER he retire. Around the 1960's. Louis also won 8 in a row. Louis busted up the nose, but did not knock out Rocky's teeth.

Why bring up Walcott 2?? Even though the fight turn out ko 1, a protecter fighter WOULD not jump into a rematch like that. No one knew at the time Rocky was just going to land a uppercut and win by ko. Walcott may have mis time the count ete, but people expect it to be other great fight.

May be own by the IBC, but Rocky was not protecter. Sure he may have had guys that Rocky could beat with his eyes close like Cockell, but evey great fighter has thsos fights.

Ali Wepner, or even Tunney Heenly. Rocky clean out his era. There was relly no one out there for Rocky.

[fatcity69]

He was not proctected when he first started out. You dont thown your suppose top fighters champions to be when there 4-0 against a guys with 16-0 and 23-0 records.

Perhaps once Weill saw something in him, he was protected, but sooner or later he had to match Rocky up against foes like Rex Layne, Joe Louis who was still winning and a title shot match with Harry Kid Mathews. Non of these fights were made to protect Rocky. It was either win or lose, and if lose, fail to get a title shot.

Once he won the title from Walcott, Protected fighters dont rematch the former champ who gave him hell in the first fight.

Protected fighters dont rematch a guy who almost won the first fight, and almost loseing by a mere 3 points.

Protected fighters dont fight greats like Ezzard Charles, and after a great first fight, jump right into a rematch.

And protected fighters dont fight Archie Moore who was along with Rocky Marciano cleaning house on the 1950's heavyweights.

If you want to see a fighter whos rein for the most part was protected, look at Patterson's title rein.

Had Al felt his fighter was not the best perhaps, like Cus did for Patterson, Marciano might have defended against the lower rank contenders and even defind against guys in there first pro fights.

What did Rademacher do to earn a title shot that Eddie Machen or Folly didnt do??[/quote]


Harry Kid Matthews was a light heavyweight. His manager Doc Hurley KNEW he was going to lose to marciano but took the fight rather fight Maxim because it was bigger paycheck. Thats a fact. Joe Louis was shot, not to mention he had only recently gotten out of an insane asylum. Despite that fact Louis, using nothing but his jab managed to break Marciano's nose and knock out his two front teeth. Come on man who are you trying to kid? Furthermore, why even bring up Walcott 2? that fight was highly suspaect at the time and remains so. MANY people in the press felt it was adive by Walcott. You can argue he wasnt protected but its factually false. Period. The guy was owned and operated by the IBC. You can argue all you want about who he fought but the guys he was fighting were either blown up light heavies, or faded greats, or both. Its certainly not the murderers row it appears and Al Weill, as manager/matchmaker with the backing of the most pwerful boxing organization in the world kept it that way.[/quote]


Lightheavyweight or not, Harry Kid Matthews, like Rocky was on route to a title shot with Walcott, Marciano knock him off the path.

Joe Louis didnt go INSANE until AFTER he retire. Around the 1960's. Louis also won 8 in a row. Louis busted up the nose, but did not knock out Rocky's teeth.

Why bring up Walcott 2?? Even though the fight turn out ko 1, a protecter fighter WOULD not jump into a rematch like that. No one knew at the time Rocky was just going to land a uppercut and win by ko. Walcott may have mis time the count ete, but people expect it to be other great fight.

May be own by the IBC, but Rocky was not protecter. Sure he may have had guys that Rocky could beat with his eyes close like Cockell, but evey great fighter has thsos fights.

Ali Wepner, or even Tunney Heenly. Rocky clean out his era. There was relly no one out there for Rocky.[/quote]

What about Nino Valdez???

[klompton]

Joe Louis had mental issues BEFORE the Marciano fight and after. You are awfully defensive about the guys Marciano fought. Asking why I bring up men like Matthews and Walcott 2 when those are legitimate issues. As stated, Hurley absolutely knew Matthews was going to lose and took more money for that fight rather than face Maxim where he was a contender. Walcott 2 was a legitimate complaint, how you can ignore what everyone who saw the fight at that time said which was that it looked like a dive is beyond me. Like its this big stretch that Quarry could give Marciano a fight? Please! Oh, and by the way I have an original wire photo of Marciano taken right after his fight with Louis and his front teeth are gone... I guess his cornermen took them out... to aid breathing? Go on, lets here more excuses.

Oh, and by the way. Heeney was a top contender of the late 1920s and early 1930s. Strong as a bull and durable. He had just drawn with Sharkey in the final of an elimination tournament set to find a challenger with Tunney and Rickard chose him over Sharkey because he felt his aggressive style would mesh well with Tunney's defensive approach.

[dempseyfire]

Klomp I have to disagree. Marciano fought a lot of stiffs coming up, but Louis was still a top 10 fighter on a big winning streak, Layne was on a very hot run, a puncher, and came into the fight a firm favorite. And those 'faded' greats he defended the title against (Walcott, Charles, Moore) were like it or not the top heavyweights of the early 1950s post WWII scene, which was a relatively weak transitioning period for the division. Who in the early 50s can be said to have deserved a shot at the title and didn't get one? The usual names brought up are Henry, Baker, and Valdez but Marciano fought the guy (Moore) who beat all of them!

[raylawpc]

Al Weill served as matchmaker for the Garden. While Marciano was coming up and after he was champion Weill was supposed to have quit this position, officially, because it represented a conflict of interes. Unofficially he maintained that position even after the IBC purchased the Garden club. Thus Al Weill and by default Rocky Marciano, were privvy to preferential treatment by officials and by the IBC which at that time was the most powerful boxing organization in the world. Furthermore it gave Weill an amazing amount of flexibility in picking and choosing Marciano's opposition. This may seem like business as usual today but back then it wasnt and the IBC (which was as dirty as it gets) was eventually broken up by the federal government. In essence Marciano was the house fighter and when research some of the dirty business Weill was in you can understand that some of criticisms of Marciano's glossy record may be more than warranted.

He was not proctected when he first started out. You dont thown your suppose top fighters champions to be when there 4-0 against a guys with 16-0 and 23-0 records.

Perhaps once Weill saw something in him, he was protected, but sooner or later he had to match Rocky up against foes like Rex Layne, Joe Louis who was still winning and a title shot match with Harry Kid Mathews. Non of these fights were made to protect Rocky. It was either win or lose, and if lose, fail to get a title shot.

Once he won the title from Walcott, Protected fighters dont rematch the former champ who gave him hell in the first fight.

Protected fighters dont rematch a guy who almost won the first fight, and almost loseing by a mere 3 points.

Protected fighters dont fight greats like Ezzard Charles, and after a great first fight, jump right into a rematch.

And protected fighters dont fight Archie Moore who was along with Rocky Marciano cleaning house on the 1950's heavyweights.

If you want to see a fighter whos rein for the most part was protected, look at Patterson's title rein.

Had Al felt his fighter was not the best perhaps, like Cus did for Patterson, Marciano might have defended against the lower rank contenders and even defind against guys in there first pro fights.

What did Rademacher do to earn a title shot that Eddie Machen or Folly didnt do??

I agree. However, he did fight a lot of stiffs on the way up. But then again, most do. And Marciano didn't have much amateur experience.

[granberry]

Billy Conn never had an amateur fight.

Harold Johnson never had an amateur fight.

[Robinson]

I thought 'Fatcity' was a some what over rated film....

[harrygreb]

a peak rock would destroy quarry in 5 brutal rounds. quarry's mentality would crumble and that would be it. a great competitor was jerry but his mental fortitude would ultimately find him out here.

[Stillmatic]

Rocky WKO 1 over Jerry

I'm thinking the same thing!

Jesus Christ, talk about a mismatch. I'll give Quarry the benefit of the doubt and assume he could survive a round or two tho. Quarry would come out swinging, and that strategy would backfire immediately, and he'd be getting laced ten times worse than anything he ever got laced in his career.

Rocky Marciano KO 2 Jerry Quarry in an absolute, 100% mismatch and horror show. I'm thinking Manny Pacquiao-Ricky Hatton in terms of heavyweights.

IMO.

[hhaehre]

Rocky WKO 1 over Jerry

I'm thinking the same thing!

Jesus Christ, talk about a mismatch. I'll give Quarry the benefit of the doubt and assume he could survive a round or two tho. Quarry would come out swinging, and that strategy would backfire immediately, and he'd be getting laced ten times worse than anything he ever got laced in his career.

Rocky Marciano KO 2 Jerry Quarry in an absolute, 100% mismatch and horror show. I'm thinking Manny Pacquiao-Ricky Hatton in terms of heavyweights.

IMO.

I think you are a bit harsh on Quarry now, he would last into the middle rounds and maybe even past the 10th imo. Marciano usually took out guys with an accumulation of punches and Quarry had a pretty good chin. Quarry would last a while but he was not clever enough in the ring to last the distance that way and he, like most other fighters of his size, would not be resilient enough to stand in with Marciano for 15 rounds.

[The Great John L]

Why do you think Quarry would come out "swinging"? Is that how he fought Ron Lyle?

I can't imagine how anyone could envision this being a blowout for Rocky. Quarry fought just about every top HW of the late 60's and early 70's, arguably one of the top periods for HWs and was never blown out by anyone, except Ali, who fought nothing like Rocky. It seems everyone thinks of Quarry only as a slugger. Is it possible many posters have not seen Quarry against Lyle, Foster, Spencer, etc. He was quite versatile and skilled and was capable of adapting his style.

If Rocky couldn't blow out Layne and Lastarza I can't see how he would blow out Quarry.

[Seamus]

Very well put John L. I can accept anyone saying Marciano wins over any distance, but this Quarry hasen't got a prayer, line of reasoning is pure nonsense. Roland LaStarza wasen't even in Quarry's league, and at least a few people thought he beat a 25-0 Marciano, and then gave him a second hard fight.

Quarry lacked Marciano's stamina and durability, and for that reason I'd make Marciano a heavy favorite in a 15 rounder. But over 10, I could see Quarry doing enough to pull out a decision victory.

[Ezzard]

Very well put John L. I can accept anyone saying Marciano wins over any distance, but this Quarry hasen't got a prayer, line of reasoning is pure nonsense. Roland LaStarza wasen't even in Quarry's league, and at least a few people thought he beat a 25-0 Marciano, and then gave him a second hard fight.

Quarry lacked Marciano's stamina and durability, and for that reason I'd make Marciano a heavy favorite in a 15 rounder. But over 10, I could see Quarry doing enough to pull out a decision victory.

Great post.

[yancey]

Rocky WKO 1 over Jerry

I'm thinking the same thing!

Jesus Christ, talk about a mismatch. I'll give Quarry the benefit of the doubt and assume he could survive a round or two tho. Quarry would come out swinging, and that strategy would backfire immediately, and he'd be getting laced ten times worse than anything he ever got laced in his career.

Rocky Marciano KO 2 Jerry Quarry in an absolute, 100% mismatch and horror show. I'm thinking Manny Pacquiao-Ricky Hatton in terms of heavyweights.

IMO.

In your dreams, maybe.

This is not a mismatch fight at all.