War to end all wars

[bollox]

Some years ago I would have picked Foreman but these days I reckon a prime Holmes boxes George's ears off the entire fight. George will have some success when he lands cleanly although I can't see this happening too often

[Grimm]

I definitely could see Spinks beating Foreman because I do not see Foreman being able to catch him and don't see Foreman matching his skills.

- Sorry to hear that you don't see very well. Might want to get your seeing eye dog to review Mike Spinks' heavy fights and give you an accurate assessment of Spinks' capabilities.

Spinks never relied on movement needing fleet feet. He generally preferred ring center as he showed against Holmes and nobody beat any version of George at ring center. Unnatural one off brutes don't need to match skills my little friend. History of boxing heartbreak written in thousands of unrepentent sluggers bombing out skilled, experienced, talented boxers.

Whatever possibility of beating Foreman by Spinks or Mr. Larry that exists is slim and none. Neither can take the shots Ali took against Foreman in Zaire without collapsing, and neither can match the quirky footwork and body contortion wizardry of the best version of Young who ever existed who won a very close decision over a very disheartened George who was being run out on a string by King.

The only reason Mr. Larry grabs a title is because of the inevitable aging, retirement, and demise of the golden 4 of the 70s, that and never attempting to unify the titles against other champs, some of whom were more naturally gifted than Mr. Larry who was something of an overachiever. George's record against HOFers is 4-2, 4 KO, 5-2, 5 KOs on the outside chance Moorer makes the HOF, and all but one of his HOF fights against prime/nearprime HOFers. Mr. Larry is 2-4, 1 KO in HOF fights, never beating a prime HOFer, instead being beat by 3 HOFers in 4 fights.

Now you're just grasping for straws I never said Spinks was fleet of feet I simply said Foreman couldn't catch him. Did YOU see Spinks vs Holmes?
Spinks was a friggin maniac jerkin his head every which way making a very difficult target.

Unifying the titles was kinda pointless seeing that everyone knew who the real champ was at the time. To compare opposition you would have to look at who was fought and when they fought them I could bring up any random statistic and make it look good. Foreman beat Frazier and Norton because they are who was available to fight. Holmes fought everyone who was available and never ducked anyone. His losses come at the end of his career when he was old and out of shape. Holmes lost to Ali but he took the fight. Foreman admitted on several occasions that he wanted no parts of Tyson.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think Witherspoon would have the best shot at George of Larry's title victims. He had an excellent defense and enough pop to hurt the big man.

Shavers certainly has a punchers chance, though it's much more likely that George starches him first.

Not feeling Spinks avoiding bombs for 15rds, he had nothing to make Foreman think about. He would put on an insane amount of pressure and I imagine Michael would have been intimidated going in.

Foreman would have to be favored over all of them, don't see why that matters in a head to head situation.

[granberry]

I still say Holmes has the best jab and know alot of people will agree with me here.

And what level of competence when it comes to the subject of boxing are your "alot of people" ?

LOL

[granberry]

Holmes fought everyone who was available and never ducked anyone.

Yeah,

That's why he gave rematches to Snipes, Weaver, Witherspoon, and every one of the novices who beat him up in his title defenses.

LOL

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Now you're just grasping for straws I never said Spinks was fleet of feet I simply said Foreman couldn't catch him. Did YOU see Spinks vs Holmes?
Spinks was a friggin maniac jerkin his head every which way making a very difficult target.

- Must have never seen a prime Foreman fight in your life. Foreman always went to the body if the head was unavailable.

Go see my comments noting where Mr. Larry nor Spinks can take the punishment George dished on Ali, nor did either posses the quirky body contortions and fleet footwork of the best ever version of Young who ever showed in the ring.

Spinks cleaned up on the older Holmes who had been propped up in the ring over his last few fights for just this moment of humiliation. Think he threw maybe one or two right hands in the early rounds, and, then was paralyzed in place like a statue by the mere threat of the Spinks' Jinx that Spinks used sparingly, preferring to deliver a 1001 paper cuts on Mr. Larry via his little over the top snapping half-jab.

Prime Foreman would walk the lot of them down with vicious looping body shots. Just as Mr. Larry partially filled a vacuum with the retirement of the golden 4, Spinks came along at the tail end of the vacuum and made his legend as he denied Mr. Larry his.

Simply put for your easy understanding, Mr. Larry was a fine heavy for the era, just never in the same grade whenever George was fighting, nor when Ali and Joe were still fighting. He whinged a disputed split over Kenny and fled to the hinterlands for safekeeping until Spinks tracked him down.

[Grimm]

I still say Holmes has the best jab and know alot of people will agree with me here.

And what level of competence when it comes to the subject of boxing are your "alot of people" ?

LOL

I'd say alot higher than yours. Your last name would happen to be Sugar would it?

[granberry]

I still say Holmes has the best jab and know alot of people will agree with me here.

And what level of competence when it comes to the subject of boxing are your "alot of people" ?

LOL

I'd say alot higher than yours. Your last name would happen to be Sugar would it?

Is their 'knowledge' of boxing on the same level as your knowledge of English, Mr. "Alot' ?

LOL

[Grimm]

Is their 'knowledge' of boxing on the same level as your knowledge of English, Mr. "Alot' ?

LOL

Great idea.

granberry: Hmm....I have nothing meaningful to say. I'll spell check him, Yeaah that'll get him he doesn't know alot is not one word, I'll call him out and make myself look smart.

[granberry]

Is their 'knowledge' of boxing on the same level as your knowledge of English, Mr. "Alot' ?

LOL

Great idea.

granberry: Hmm....I have nothing meaningful to say. I'll spell check him, Yeaah that'll get him he doesn't know alot is not one word, I'll call him out and make myself look smart.

From the display of both knowledge of boxing and of English you have presented here,

the only conclusion one could come to is that

both definitely look quite 'grim.'

LOL

[Grimm]

Is their 'knowledge' of boxing on the same level as your knowledge of English, Mr. "Alot' ?

LOL

Great idea.

granberry: Hmm....I have nothing meaningful to say. I'll spell check him, Yeaah that'll get him he doesn't know alot is not one word, I'll call him out and make myself look smart.

From the display of both knowledge of boxing and of English you have presented here,

the only conclusion one could come to is that

both definitely look quite 'grim.'

LOL

This seems to be a much darker subject than I thought.

granberry, were you abused as a child?

[granberry]

granberry, were you abused as a child?

grim certainly fits right in as another boxrec boxing 'expert.'

Keep the deep knowledge coming, Mr. 'Alot'.

[Grimm]

granberry, were you abused as a child?

grim certainly fits right in as another boxrec boxing 'expert.'

Keep the deep knowledge coming, Mr. 'Alot'.

This deep hatred for Larry Holmes is stemming from something else.

Do Holmes fights bring back bad memories?

Did your father ever touch you during Holmes reign?

[fatcity69]

Orange juice anyone??? ;;-)

[Grimm]

granberry, were you abused as a child?

grim certainly fits right in as another boxrec boxing 'expert.'

Keep the deep knowledge coming, Mr. 'Alot'.

Who is 'grim' is that an alter ego you post under?

Is he the reason you dislike Holmes?

[fatcity69]

I have it on good authority that Holmes didnt care for cranberrys juice!. Each to his own I guess. Seriously though Holmes did have a great left jab, this should be undeniable to anyone with a toenail of boxing knowledge and some decent specs

[Rocky Balboa]

Foreman by ko. Holmes had lots of trouble with Cooney and Foreman was better than Cooney, much better.

Well by that logic Foreman had lots of trouble with young and Holmes was better than Young, much better

Holmes TKO12

You asked about Foreman of 1973 not 1977. The notion that Holmes would box circles around Foreman of 1973 does not hold water as Holmes had a hard time boxing circles around anyone. Apart from the many gross mismatches like Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Zanon, Evangelista etc. Holmes usually gutted out victories by wars of attrition. Maybe he could take Foremans best and outlast him but I doubt it. Tyson showed that Holmes could be knocked out if hit hard enough and George could hit.

Yes, but Tyson hit Holmes wiht combinations, accumilation of punches, not just signle shots! Holmes could not handle Tyson's speed!

Larry, for me, had the best recouperative powers of any HW in history, plus the best jab of all HWs. Holmes had heart as shown none more-so if his fight with Norton.

Despite his power, its unlikely George gets Larry out of there, & Foreman has problems if he doesn't get his man out of there in three rounds. Larry could outbox Foreman imo.

Holmes TKO13!

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...Larry, for me, had the best recouperative powers of any HW in history..." - Rocky

They were certainly very good, perhaps great --- but what do you have in his career to base that on?

Facts are, there wasn't a single first-class finisher Holmes ever faced who seriously hurt him --- until Tyson, when it was too late to glean anything. Shavers was an extremely limited fighter who was, hyperbole of that thumping shot aside, rather tired at the time. Snipes was a powerful hitter, & couldn't reproduce what he needed when he hurt the champ. Who of serious punching & finishing repute put him in a tough spot? There isn't anyone even close to what Foreman would bring, either as a two-handed puncher, or, even moreso, as a top-notch finisher of wounded prey.

Edit: Meant to say Snipes wasn't a powerful hitter.

[fatcity69]

"...Larry, for me, had the best recouperative powers of any HW in history..." - Rocky

They were certainly very good, perhaps great --- but what do you have in his career to base that on?

Facts are, there wasn't a single first-class finisher Holmes ever faced who seriously hurt him --- until Tyson, when it was too late to glean anything. Shavers was an extremely limited fighter who was, hyperbole of that thumping shot aside, rather tired at the time. Snipes was a powerful hitter, & couldn't reproduce what he needed when he hurt the champ. Who of serious punching & finishing repute put him in a tough spot? There isn't anyone even close to what Foreman would bring, either as a two-handed puncher, or, even moreso, as a top-notch finisher of wounded prey.

Who would you class as a first class finisher then?. Shavers had his limitations but to dismiss him simply as hyperbole is a mistake. Foreman for one wanted no part of him. Holmes recovery from his knockdown against Shavers is surely a prime example of his recupertive powers and a far more accurate portrait of his ability than his fight against tyson where is was 38 and having his first fight in over three years and with just 6 weeks training.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Shavers had his limitations but to dismiss him simply as hyperbole is a mistake. Foreman for one wanted no part of him. Holmes recovery from his knockdown against Shavers is surely a prime example of his recupertive powers and a far more accurate portrait of his ability than his fight against tyson where is was 38 and having his first fight in over three years and with just 6 weeks training.

- For the record, yeah, Mr. Larry could take a shot, but if you look at how loonytunes Shavers goes after the KD, it's clear he had a clubfighter's mentality at heart, not a good finisher unless the guy was already finished and waiting for the one more shot.

Foreman's team could care less about Shavers. They'd already been in against superior fighters and big sluggers and facts are that Shavers and Foreman have little overlap since Shavers was no more than prospect for the longest time while George was champ.

Always a noob showing up freshly dropped off the turnip truck blabbering nonsense about Mr. Larry. He was off less than 2 yrs, but more importantly, he'd been scouting Tyson for over a year, all the while dickering with them over contract details and such. Mr. Larry has a first rate gym on his property where he trained off and on for at least a year for that fight. Tyson was on an extremely tight schedule back then, often fighting just a couple or three months apart as he did for Mr. Larry. He had 4 title fights in 87, and his 13th fight in 86 won him Berbick's title.

If anyone deserved excuses for being flat, it would have to be 21 yr old Tyson for maintaining such a brutal schedule that sees him unify all three belts in less than a year as champ before meeting Mr. Larry. Keep in mind, if Mr. Larry fans would at least get their facts right, I won't have to look like I'm always cracking on Mr. Larry. I enjoyed some of his fights thought he was OK until he started approaching Rocky's record while obviously losing.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"Who would you class as a first class finisher then?. Shavers had his limitations but to dismiss him simply as hyperbole is a mistake. Foreman for one wanted no part of him. Holmes recovery from his knockdown against Shavers is surely a prime example of his recupertive powers and a far more accurate portrait of his ability than his fight against tyson where is was 38 and having his first fight in over three years and with just 6 weeks training." - FatCity

Well, if you re-read, you'll see I didn't call Shavers, "hyperbole," but, rather, said hyperbole of that thumping shot aside, he was quite plainly a fighter winding down, with not much petrol left in the tank. No one ever mentions it, but that was a contributing factor to Holmes' escape (of course, he still had to get up from such a punch, so credit for that). I do, incidentally, think of Shavers as one of the most over-rated, "contenders" of a golden era. A lot of folkes around here have, to say the least, a far grander view of him than I do.

I agree Holmes deserves mass credit for getting up, &, to a lesser degree, surviving the round against an admittedly tired (&, whether fresh or exhausted, perpetually clumsy) Shavers. I contend that Foreman, a far more competent finisher than Shavers ever was, would never have permitted Holmes to escape under those circumstances. Foreman was a lot more lethal than Shavers in his delivery, but, to be fair, that was one bad moment for Holmes in many, many successful rounds against a lesser man. I don't know why you felt compelled to write your last sentence. I already stated there was nothing to glean from the fact Holmes didn't survive Tyson's assault, but the fact is, Foreman would be absolutely light-years ahead of any Holmes opponent (during Holmes' title reign) in terms of the danger he presented.

[Ezzard]

Holmes had a gut from about 84-85 onwards...

His prime lasts until Tyson KO'd him but Tyson was finished at 24! No bias going on here, just another religious sect to go alongside the Ali evangelicals that have supposedly sprung up all over this forum.

[granberry]

The news media was thrilled with the "Battle of the Beer Bellies."

Hanging bellied David Bey beat on the defenseless beer bellied Larry Holmes for a couple rounds

but then Bey ran out of gas and Holmes started slapping him back.

The news media shills wrote it up as a supposedly legitimate heavyweight championship fight instead of as the farce it was.

[Collins2000]

The news media shills wrote it up as a supposedly legitimate heavyweight championship fight instead of as the farce it was.

If only they were as smart as you and David Icke, gran.