Classic American West Coast Boxing

Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

dagosd2000 wrote:SMOKE RINGS

So I need to go to Tijuana today to get some of those paintings framed for the WBHOF Banquet. I turn into the parking lot on 4th Avenue and look across the street and see the sign. Esther's Gallery is on the other side of the street. Before I can look ,Esther's daughter is waving me over. OK. I see it now.

I go inside.
"Que paso?"
"Too much rent ."says Esther. "No can pay 1500."
"1500? That's robbery for down here,"I come back with.
"Si.I pay only 675. Is half."
"Yeah,and besides I like the layout better. Everything in the open. The workers. The frames.All in the open. It's nicer."
"Yes,Roger it's better here."
"All you need is a bano."
"But Roger we have a bano,"said Esther pointing to the back.
"Good. Now let that landlord choke on his 1500 he ain't gonna get no more."

Esther told me to come back in a couple of hours. I was having five pictures framed. Esther is the best. Pro work and a great price and it's done fast.

So with some time to kill,I found the cigar shop on the first block of Revolution. The place was empty. Two morenitas with full figures behind the counter,the mahogany decor,ceiling fans,Cuban cigars,big soft leather sofas,Cuban music piped in with the shrilly trumpets and all the percussion,and two full figured morenitas. I ordered a double espresso and went to the back room with the humidor and grabbed a Monte Cristo.

I plopped down into that sofa and lit up. The morenitas,the espresso double,the music,the ceiling fans,the mahogany,and the full figured morenitas. I ain't movin' for a while. I was thinking about maybe going across the street to the Hotel Nelson for a Special,but was too lazy to get off that sofa. Besides the morenitas would glance over and smile at me.

As I was enjoying the Monte Cristo,I exhaled a perfect smoke ring. I've never done that before. I don't know how it happened,but it did. I got so I could do it anytime I wanted.

I hated to leave,but I wanted to get back to Esther's. Besides my wife was at our daughter's place in Canon Jhonson and I needed to make connections.

As I was walking along Revolution,I saw the La Especial Taco Stand. Book it. Best tacos in the world. I've been going there for over 40 years and it's the same wonderfull flavor. They make it in a broth with a soft corn tortilla. The beef is shredded and steamed. A carrot and a raw onion,some jalapenos, and it's like no taco you've ever tasted. I saw the guy behind the stand and told him of my love for those tacos.
"Si senor. No one makes them better,"he said with a wink.
I wanted to walk down the stairs to go into the arcade.
"No senor. All closed."
I looked down the stairs. He was right.Everything was closed up. The restaurant even. The Cafe La Especial. Closed up .Finished.
"No business senor,"said the taco maker.

Another landmark gone on that street. Soon the Caesar Hotel would be history. The Fronton Palacio were the Jai Lai was a big attraction. Gone. The downtown bullring. Gone. The street was drying up.

Sometimes I think I should bring a camera to Tijuana. Sometimes I do. Today I didn't feel like it. I don't want to take pictures of poor people. What are they thinking this guy is up to?

I picked up the paintings and then drove to Canon Jhonson to my daughter's place. She's been in that place forever. Sometimes i wonder how she does it.Wakes up at 3 in the morning to catch a cab to the border. Then the trolley to San Diego to get to work by 5 am. She told us that her hours have been cut back at the commissary cleaning the fish. She's been their almost 30 years.Everybody that works there now lives in Tijuana. My wife was there when she got her the job. Our daughter doesn't make ten bucks an hour still after all this time and now they've cut her hours.Gone are her benefits. She's got bad circulation in her hands from working in the wet cold all those years. Without her health insurance her medicine is 250 dollars. No way she can come up with that. She'll go to the pharmacy in TJ. The medicine is 14 bucks in Mexico.

We all sat and talked. My grand daughter was with her son,Erik. We were very happy.We ate caldo de rez.We played with Erik.We talked about Michoacan.My daughter gave us chiles to take home. I wished I'd brought my camera.

Roger . . . The smoke rings were a sign. Good things on the horizon.
Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoE8n8q1AnI

Dead End(1937)

Dead End Kids,Sylvia Sidney,and Humphrey Bogart.

A time when bad kids weren't that bad.
Legendary ladies . . .

In 1982 I worked on a TV movie in which Sylvia Sydney played a supporting role.
For the life of me, I cannot remember what it was. However, I lit the old gal nicely.

She was from Hollywood of old. The business my grandfather came up in.
A few month's earlier I'd lit Bette Davis and Anne Baxter. All Hollywood royalty, in their last roles.
My grandfather lit them when they were young starlets, I lit them when they were old broads.
My grandfather hated Bette Davis. I liked her, and I loved Anne Baxter.

Sylvia Sydney? Don't remember much about her, she just worked one day, in one scene.
I recall her eyes were very old, she quietly entered the scene, total professional.
I can see her as she was when she took her place on the set, after we'd lit the stand-ins.
At times, under perfectly balanced light, lit to project depth, an actor in full make-up will take on the look of a wax figure. It's quite surreal.
There is beauty to it, the gleam reflecting from the eyes, a soft shadow minimizes a flaw, enhances a feature.

I can still see the gleam in Sylvia Sydney's tired eyes. That's all I can remember of her.
Years later, long after she'd passed, I'd see an old B&W studio still photo of Ms. Sydney.
She was a young woman in the photo. I'd meet her fifty years later.

Just remembered the TV Movie. It was titled, "Having It All", and starred Dyan Cannon and Barry Neuman. For CBS, I believe.


-Rick Farris
kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Rick Farris wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:Hello Everyone,

FYI, the Parks and Recreation Commissioners are meeting to discuss the future of the Canto Robledo Project. The meeting will be on Tuesday, October 6, 09, at 6:00p.m., at the Villa Parke Community Center, 363 E. Villa St. Pasadena, CA 91101. We need all the support we can get to make this project a reality. It is an open forum meeting anyone is allowed to speak in favor or against the project. Your presence and support will be greatly appreciated and if you would like you can speak in favor of the project at the meeting.


Thank you very much!

Joseph C. Robledo

Canto Robledo . . .


Frank . . . I remember the first time I saw Canto Robledo. It was at the Teamster's Gym the night of my first Junior fight in 1965.
I remember Canto had a guide, and the two of them were at the bottom of a stairway near the front door.
Later I fought one of his amateurs, Frankie Santillian, four times in 1969. Twice at the Olympic and twice at El Monte Legion.

I know that Canto lost his sight after a bout in the 30's, against a fighter named Helio Hernandez. I have to check the date to be certain.
I remember his "Crown City Boxing Club" in Pasadena, near the Arroyo.
Canto was blind but trained boxers. He had Eddie Johnson helping him out. Eddie passed in 1994.
Besides my pal, Frankie Santillian (and yeah we were school pals in Burbank), Canto handled heavyweight Wayne Kindred, Baby Cassius, and others.

My most vivid memory of the legendary L.A. boxing figure goes back to 1968, the night of the Lionel Rose-ChuCho Castillo riot at the Forum.
We were all exiting the building and Ruben Navarro saw Canto wandering lost in the crowd, seperated from his guide.
Navarro grabbed his arm and we led him outside to the parking lot.

I hope Pasadena grants the Canto Robledo Project, whatever that might be? A park?


-Rick Farris
Rick...My late cousin Tony Adame and I fought for Canto Robledo when he was promoting amateur shows at the old Pasadena arena in the mid-1950s... :box: :bag:

Canto and his wife Connie were great people... :bow:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Right now it looks like we'll be going back to the Sportsmen's Lodge next year for the CBHOF...
kikibalt
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Image
Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

kikibalt wrote:Right now it looks like we'll be going back to the Sportsmen's Lodge next year for the CBHOF...
Frank . . . That's good news for me. It's right around the corner. I was speaking with Don Fraser yesterday and he told me the same thing.
I passed by there yesterday and everything is being torn out. I don't know what they have in mind, but it won't be quite the same as it used to be.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

delete
Last edited by dagosd2000 on 01 Oct 2009, 20:46, edited 2 times in total.
Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

dagosd2000 wrote:Image

Mando Ramos
Mando Ramos
The Youngest Lightweight Champ
by Rick Farris


In 1965, promoters Cal & Aileen Eaton began promoting weekly televised boxing shows from the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles.
L.A. was loaded with boxing talent and the Eatons would parlay this talent into the most successful weekly boxing promotion in the world.

The Eatons hired veteran boxing figure Mickey Davies as matchmaker and Jimmy Lennon Sr. (The Voice of the Olympic Auditorium) was the ring announcer.
The fights were televised every Thursday night on KTLA channel 5 from 8-to-10 pm. with matchmaker Davies and a young Dick Enberg calling the action from ringside.
It was a winning combination. However, it was the boxers that made "Boxing from the Olympic" the highest rated local TV production in Southern California.

A few months after things got started Cal Eaton passed away, leaving his widow Aileen with the responsibility of running the show.
Aileen was not to be underestimated and she had no difficulty dealing in the tough world of professional boxing.
To the managers she was known as a tough businesswoman and was nicknamed "Dragon Lady". However, she was like a mother to the boxers.

Eaton had the connections and resources to bring top name talent to Los Angeles to headline her boxing cards and often did so.
However, she was also aware of the potential of local talent and focused her business on the development of these young fighters.
For the next decade Aileen Eaton would help build the careers of many exceptional boxers and several would go on to win world championships.

The first World Champion to come from this group was one of the most exciting and charismatic to ever step into the ring at the 18th & Grand arena.
His name was Armando Ramos. Mando would become the youngest man to ever win the World Lightweight Championship.

Mando Ramos was a boxing prodigy. His father Ray Ramos had been a boxer and he taught his sons Junior and Mando how to box shortly after they had started walking.
When Junior began boxing as an amateur Mando would follow his older brother to the gym.
By the age of eight, Mando was competing in Jr. Golden Gloves tournaments in Los Angeles.

By the time Junior turned professional Mando was already gaining a rep at the gym. The tall, skinny teenager was outboxing a lot of pros and his punching power was no secret.

Mando Ramos had a gift, but he also had a curse. The gift Mando had would take him to the top of the world in boxing.
However, the curse would take it all away from him before he ever had a chance to reach his prime as a boxer.

In the evening, Mando would work in his grandmother's Mexican restaurant washing dishes.
He became friendly with the restaurant's bartender and this gave Mando access to all the booze he could want.
It was the 60's and Mando was also known to indulge in other methods of getting high.
Even so, Ramos was outclassing professional boxers in gym workouts and Junior decided it was time to hook his brother up with a top trainer.

Junior Ramos contacted Jackie McCoy, a former bantamweight contender who had fought Manuel Ortiz in the late 40's.
McCoy was one of the best manager/trainers in boxing and had helped guide Don Jordan to the welterweight title in the late 50's.
McCoy had heard of the kid but wanted to see for himself. What he saw convinced him that Mando Ramos was something special.

McCoy had a featherweight scheduled to fight in a main event the following week and he put the 16-year-old Ramos in with his boxer for a sparring match.
Ramos knocked McCoy's fighter out in the opening round.
McCoy was excited about what he saw and called his partner, Lee Praila, and told him to meet him at the gym the next day to discuss future plans for their new prospect.

Jackie McCoy went to work and fine tuned Ramos' natural talent, molding him into a boxer that was too good for the amateurs in Los Angeles, or anywhere else for that matter.
Amateur boxers would not fight Mando and it was decided that in the best interest of Ramos he should turn professional.
McCoy wanted Mando to concentrate on boxing and keep him away from the bad influence of his friends.

However, there was one problem. The California State Athletic Commission required a boxer to be 18-years-old to get a professional boxing license.
Mando wasn't yet seventeen.
McCoy feared that with no amateur competition, Ramos' career might succumb to his love of women and the party scene before it ever had a chance to get off the ground.

McCoy had a long talk with Mando and the skinny teenager promised to buckle down and work if given the opportunity to fight pro.
With the help of a phony birth certificate, Mando Ramos made his professional boxing debut just two days after his 17th birthday.

Armando Ramos had his first pro fight at the Olympic Auditorium on November 17, 1965.
In a one-sided match Ramos won a unanimous four round decision over Berlin Roberts.
Two weeks later he KO'ed tough Chuey Loera in the second round and the fans were already taking notice of the talented kid from Long Beach.
Ramos was nearly 5'10" and weighed 126 pounds. He was also strikingly handsome and became a favorite of the Los Angeles boxing fans watching in person or on TV.

Ramos had only been seen in two pro fights but Aileen Eaton was already getting letters from fans requesting to see more of this kid.
Mando would start 1966 with three consecutive knockouts followed by a unanimous decision over Bosco Basileo in a six rounder.

Ramos was 6-0 with 4 knockouts when McCoy and Eaton decided to put him in his first ten round main event. His opponent would be a tough veteran named Joey Aquilar.
The Olympic Auditorium, which held nearly 11,000 fans, was packed for Ramos' main event debut which was being broadcast live on television.
Everybody thought that Ramos was amazing for an 18-year-old and had no idea that he was only seventeen.
Ramos battered Aquilar, knocking the tough Mexican down three times before referee George Latka stopped the fight in the eighth round. A star was born.

Two weeks later Ramos headlined again at the Olympic and knocked out Ray Coleman in the 6th round. Two weeks later he iced Manny Linson in two rounds.
By the end of 1966 Ramos was 14-0 (10 KO's) and ready to take another step up the ladder in the featherweight division.

Ramos was now an established main eventer and could sell out the Olympic within a few days of announcing that he was scheduled to fight. Eaton would no longer televise Ramos' fights.
Mando's fights would now follow a televised ten rounder and if you wanted to see Ramos fight you would have to drive down to the Olympic and buy a ticket. And this is exactly what people did.

Mando quickly became one of the biggest box-office attractions in the history of Los Angeles boxing. His popularity was being compared with L.A.'s last box office Golden Boy, Art Aragon from the 50's.
It was about this time that the press discovered that L.A.'s newest Golden Boy had only just turned eighteen, making his success even more incredible.

Two months after Mando's 18th birthday he packed the Olympic Auditorium when he took on his first world rated opponent, unbeaten Ray Echevarria.
Echevarria was the California Featherweight Champion and rated among the top ten featherweights in the world by the Ring Magazine.
Ramos out boxed, out punched and completely out fought the tough Echevarria, winning a unanimous ten round decision.
Two months later Ramos would face another tough test in veteran Pete Gonzales, whom had beaten some of the best in the world and was also rated in the top ten by The Ring.
Ramos again showed his stuff and won a unanimous ten round decision over Gonzales.

Mando was growing and could no longer make 126 pounds. In his next bout he would move up into the jr. lightweight class and take on unbeaten Len Kesey of Eugene, Oregon.
Ramos easily knocked out Kesey in the fifth round with a brutal left hook to the liver. Now 17-0 (11 KO's) Ramos would face his biggest test to date in Korea's Suh Kang-IL.

Less than twenty months after his pro debut Ramos was eighteen years old and getting rich.
Everybody wanted to be close to Mando and he loved the attention, not to mention the women. It was no secret that Mando was keeping late hours and McCoy was upset.
The fight with Suh Kang IL was scheduled just two weeks after Ramos' KO of Len Kesey and Mando was confident.
So confident that he missed several workouts prior to the match and showed up at the gym once with a hangover.

Suh Kang IL held victories over two world champions and on July 6, 1967 he handed Mando Ramos his first loss as a professional.
Two nights before the fight, Ramos had gotten so wasted at a 4th of July party that he was arrested for drunk driving on the way home.
L.A.'s newest Golden Boy was no longer unbeaten.

The following month McCoy took Ramos to Sacramento where he KO'ed Alex Luna in two. Ramos returned to L.A. and a few weeks later knocked out Eliseo Estrada in five.
Mando was growing into a lightweight but before getting much bigger, fans in Los Angeles were begging to see him fight another hot featherweight making a name for himself at the Olympic, "Irish" Frankie Crawford.

Crawford and Ramos were not strangers, as both worked out at the Jake Shugrue Gym near 78th & Hoover in South Central Los Angeles.
They had started their pro careers within months of each other and were similar in build. Like Ramos, Crawford was a tall featherweight at 5'9" and was a knockout puncher.
Another thing the two boxers had in common was natural ability and poor training habits.
In later years they would become stablemates when McCoy took over management of Crawford's career and the two fighters became friends.
However, on October 5, 1967 the two brought no friendship into the Olympic Auditorium ring when the two met for the first of two great fights.

Mando had about an inch in height on Crawford and at the weigh-in came in nine pounds heavier, which is quite an advantage to a guy under 130 pounds.
Before a sellout crowd of 10,500 fans, Frankie Crawford stepped on Ramos' toes, hit him low, thumbed him and opened cuts with head butts and elbows.
I knew Crawford well and can guarantee you that Fritzie Zivic and Ace Hudkins had nothing on Frankie when it came to dirty fighting. However, Crawford beat him legit.
It was Crawford who entered the ring in better shape and who scored an upset decision victory over Ramos.
I remember that Frankie had exhausted himself so much fighting the heavier Ramos, he was given oxygen in the dressing room after the match.

Ramos had lost for the second time in three months and this was a loss that Mando would have to avenge or forever hold his peace.
Mando turned nineteen a month after losing to Crawford and three months later, on February 1, 1968 he'd meet Crawford again in a rematch.
Mando entered the ring in shape this time and won a unanimous decision over Crawford. Mando Ramos was now ready to get back on the road that would lead him to a world title.

A few months after beating Crawford, Ramos would score his biggest win to date by defeating World Jr. Lightweight champ Hiroshi Kobayashi of Japan in a ten round non-title fight.
Ramos beat Kobayashi easily and as a result was rated the number one lightweight in the world by The Ring Magazine.

Ramos was 19-years-old and in his next fight would face Carlos "Teo" Cruz for the World Lightweight Championship.
If Ramos could beat Cruz he'd not only be the youngest boxer ever to win the lightweight title, but would do so as a teenager.

Cruz was a clever champion from the Dominican Republic who had won the title by defeating a great champion in Carlos Ortiz.
Ramos trained hard for Cruz and I remember that Aileen Eaton would need more room to hold the fight than at the 10,500 seat Olympic Auditorium or the 15,000 seat Los Angeles Sports Arena.
Eaton held the Cruz-Ramos lightweight title fight at the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum along with a World Featherweight Championship bout between Ramos' stablemate, WBA Featherweight Champ Raul Rojas and challenger Sho Saijyo.

Cruz opened cuts over both of Ramos' eyes and won a close decision after fifteen rounds, but it was obvious that Mando could beat Cruz.
McCoy refused to let Ramos rest and wanted to keep him active.
Mando had fought Cruz on even terms throughout much of the fight and Aileen Eaton signed Cruz to give Ramos a second shot at the title four months later.

After scoring KO's in two tune-up matches, Ramos challenged Cruz once again for the lightweight title on February 18, 1969.
This time it was Ramos who battered Cruz and opened cuts over both eyes of the champion.
Referee John Thomas, on the advice of ringside physician Dr, Bernard Schwartz, stopped the bout in the eleventh round.
Three months after his 20th birthday, Armando Ramos became the youngest boxer in history to win the World Lightweight Championship.

Three months after winning the title Ramos KO'ed little known Jerry Graci in a non-title fight in Hawaii.
He then returned to Los Angeles for the first defense of his title, knocking out newly crowned Jr. Lightweight Champ Yoshiaki Numata of Japan in the seventh round at the L.A. Sports Arena.

On March 3, 1970, Ramos would defend his title for the second time against former Lightweight Champ Ismael Laguna of Panama.
During the five months between his first title defense against Numata and the Laguna fight, Ramos had enjoyed all the perks of being a world champion.
It was obvious from the opening round that Mando Ramos was not ready for the skilled Panamanian. By the ninth round Mando was cut to ribbons and bleeding from cuts over both eyes.
On the advice of ringside physician Dr. Bernard Schwartz, referee Larry Rozadilla stopped the fight. Laguna had taken the title from Ramos just
over a year later he had won it.

At the age of 21, Ramos had already won and lost the Lightweight Championship.
It would be more than five months before Ramos would step into the ring again, and when he did, he faced former Featherweight Champ Sugar Ramos.
Sugar Ramos had been fighting in the lightweight division since losing the featherweight title to Vicente Saldivar six years previous.

Ramos and Ramos engaged in one of the bloodiest battles I have ever seen. In the end it was Mando's fight but he left the ring with major cuts over both eyes.
A couple of weeks later he underwent plastic surgery to remove the scar tissue in hopes that it would prolong his ring career.

After giving his skin four months to heal, Ramos would engage in a fight that was as important to him personally as it was professionally. He would be matched with his former stablemate Raul Rojas.
Rojas was the former WBA Featherweight & Jr. Lightweight Champion and his criticism of Ramos was making headlines in Los Angeles sports pages.
Mando trained harder than ever for this match.

On December 10, 1970 Ramos and Rojas would fight before a sellout crowd at the Olympic Auditorium.
The match would be the highlight of an all-star card that also featured Frankie Crawford, welterweight prospect Armando Muniz and myself in a six round TV prelim.

I remember the weigh-in for this fight. It was at 11am. on the day of the match (today weigh-ins are held the night before a fight).
All of the boxers were weighed-in on a scale set up inside the ring at the Olympic Auditorium.
Frankie Crawford stepped onto the scale right after I was weighed and as we left the ring I asked Frankie about Mando's conditioning.
Crawford said he's never seen Mando in better shape and that he was going to destroy Rojas.

That night I opened the show with a unanimous decision win over Antonio Villanueva. In the next bout Armando Muniz remained unbeaten with a KO win.
In the televised main event Frankie Crawford knocked out Jose Luis Martinez with a late blow that landed a second after the final bell.
After Crawford's controversial win, Ramos and Rojas entered the ring.

The odds favored Ramos slightly but Rojas was a tough former world champ and there was bad blood between the two.
In the sixth round, Ramos caught Rojas with a solid left hook flush on the jaw that put his former stablemate to sleep. Referee Dick Young didn't even bother to count.

Ismael Laguna had lost his lightweight championship to Ken Buchanan of Scotland. After Ramos KO'ed Rojas promoter Aileen Eaton signed Buchanan to defend his title against Ramos.
The bout was scheduled for the Los Angeles Sports arena on February 12, 1971.
I was also signed to fight on the undercard of the Buchanan-Ramos fight and would serve as a Buchanan sparring partner briefly.
Less than a week prior to the fight Ramos pulled out claiming to have been injured in the gym.
This would cost promoter Aileen Eaton a great deal of money and she was fortunate to get my stablemate Ruben Navarro to substitute for Ramos.
Navarro was training for a fight the following month with Jimmy Robertson and was not quite in condition for a fifteen rounder.
However, Navarro ended up flooring Buchanan before losing a close decision.

This was not the first time that Ramos had pulled out of an important match claiming to be injured or sick. Mando's problem had nothing to do with injury, it had to do with heroin addiction.
Mando's party habits had taken control of his life was destroying his career.

Mando didn't fight again for another nine months and when he did I appeared on the undercard of that match as well.
It was September 30, 1971 and Ramos would face my stablemate Ruben Navarro at the Olympic Auditorium.
The winner of this match was guaranteed a shot at the vacant WBC Lightweight Championship against Spain's Pedro Carrasco.

Mando had his hands full with Navarro and at the end of ten rounds the crowd was aware that Navarro had beaten Ramos.
However, the judges saw it different and awarded Ramos a narrow split decision win.

Two months later Ramos would fight Carrasco in Spain for the WBC title but end up losing on disqualification in the 12th round after beating the Spanish fighter handily.
Three months later a rematch would be held in Los Angeles and Ramos would win the title via a unanimous fifteen round decision.
Mando had trained very hard for this match and looked the best I had seen him since flattening Raul Rojas.

I remember driving Frankie Crawford to Mando's apartment in Belmont Shores a few weeks before this fight. Crawford and I had stopped in to visit Mando and the former champ was really focused.
On the door to his refrigerator he had a photo of Carrasco set in the middle of a target. Mando's focus paid off and Mando was once again a World Champion.

Ramos would defeat Carrassco a second time four months later and then signed to defend his title against Mexican Lightweight Champ Chango Carmona.

Between the last Carrassco fight and the Carmona fight, Ramos had fallen back on his old ways.
After Ramos had pulled out of the Buchanan match the previous year, Aileen Eaton had a clause inserted into any contract with Ramos stating that if he were to pull out of the match for any reason he would be liable for a minimum of $50,000. to Eaton.

Less than a week before the Carmona match, Ramos was found early one morning laying half naked in the sand near his Belmont shores apartment.
Mando had overdosed on heroin. the press never got word of this and I only heard it thru mutual friends.
Mando Ramos was truly sick, however, he would have to honor his contract and go thru with the fight.

On September 15, 1972, Mando Ramos lost the WBC Lightweight Championship at the Los Angeles Coliseum and nearly lost his life. Carmona battered Ramos before knocking him out in the eighth round.
Ramos could not make it to his feet following the knockout and had to be taken from the ring in a stretcher. The magic career of Mando Ramos was history.

It would be nearly a year before Ramos would fight again and when he did he was knocked out by Turi Pineda, a fighter that would not have lasted three rounds with Ramos in the past.

In 1974 Ramos headed to Germany where he won three fights in two weeks, before being KO'ed twice by Wolfgang Gans, a second rate German welterweight.
He then went to Las Vegas where he was granted a license and lost a ten rounder to a prelim fighter with a losing record.
After scoring a couple of close victories Mando Ramos fought Wayne Beale in what would be his last professional fight.
Beale had a losing record and was somebody I had beaten easily a few years previous as an amateur. Beale knocked out Ramos in the second round.

Mando disappeared from sight for some time. Every once in awhile I would hear something about Ramos and it was never good.
I was told he was strung out pretty bad and was homeless. I also heard that Mando's older brother Junior had died from a heroin overdose.

Then one day I heard that Mando had found himself and had been able to put together some clean time.
He was said to be working in San Pedro as a long shoreman and had organized a youth boxing program called "B.A.A.D." - Boxers & Athletes Against Drugs.

About this time four years ago I was working as a lighting technician on the film "CON AIR". One day Carlos Palomino had come to visit some friends of his that were working on the set.
I recognized Carlos and noticed that he had brought a friend with him. I didn't recognize the friend but there was something very familiar about him.
I could tell the guy had been a fighter and noticed the guy was staring at me. In fact, I was staring at him and it appeared as if he were trying to remember my face.
I finally got a chance to break away from my work and went over to say Hi to Carlos. As Palomino and I shook hands his friend stands up and extends his hand to me.
He said "Hi, I'm Mando Ramos".

I would have never recognized Mando. He looked great but was a lot heavier than he used to be and had a mustache. I said "Mando, I'm Rick Farris . . . I didn't recognize you".
We both began to laugh and tell old stories. We talked about the Olympic and our old friend Frankie Crawford who had died in the early 80's. Seeing Ramos made my day.
What really made me happy was hearing that he had been clean & sober for more than a dozen years. He was happily married and life was in session again for Mando Ramos.
Around his neck he had a gold chain with the letters "MR. BADD" inscribed on a charm.
Mando told me that his young boxers had presented it to him as a Christmas present the previous year in recognition of his program.

During the time Mando and Palomino were on the set, I watched people walk up to Carlos and introduce him as the former Welterweight champ.
Carlos had done work in the film industry and was well known. I was shocked that nobody even looked at Ramos until Palomino and I told people who it was.
Suddenly, Mando Ramos fans appeared from everywhere. People would walk onto the set from other stages after hearing that Mando Ramos was on the lot.
If I was unable to recognize Ramos after all the years it's understandable why other didn't either.
Once they found out who he was, he was the most popular person on stage, more so than Palomino or Nicolas Cage.

That was the Mando Ramos I remember. Mando's career is long down the road but I have to tell you he still has that charisma.
Mando Ramos has come off the canvas and proven himself a champion in life.
Last edited by Rick Farris on 01 Oct 2009, 17:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Rick,that's a great story on Ramos. Now put the finishing touch on it with his passing. :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

dagosd2000 wrote:Rick,that's a great story on Ramos. Now put the finishing touch on it with his passing. :TU:
Rough cut . . .

I have a few other things to add, as well.
Since writing this story, I have spent a lot of time with Mando and Sylvia Ramos.
Mando wanted me to write his life story and today I am very motivated to do just that. I need to speak with his father, and more with Sylvia.
I know things that went on behind the scenes that will really add to it.
In fact, I'm going to have to tear this story down and rebuild it for our project. In fact, all of my past stories need work.
Mando's will have a different beginning & different ending
I wrote many in Arizona. Today I have access to the fighters, again.
However, this is a good working draft. The next one will dive deeper
I don't know if you noticed, but Sylvia stopped by our table to say hello to me on saturday.
She volunteered to help me. I got a lot from Mando, the best from before he was a headliner. His youth in boxing. Stuff he told me of he and Jackie, Lee Prila, Aileen.
Some of his stories, such as meeting Speedy Dado, who was selling programs outside the Olympic Auditium in the mid-60's.
You see, when you grow up in boxing, like Mando did, he was around all these legends. It's humorous listening to his youthful opinion of the old timers, guys like Speedy Dado.
Also, he tells of being punished for his wild lifestyle by his father, who would make him box with El Gato if he came to the gym with a hangover.
Rodolfo Gonzalez was a deadly body puncher. It wasn't uncommon for Mando to go down. And there's Gonzalez' memories. These really add to my memories.
I also need to talk with Don Chargin. We spoke awhile back, but not about Mando. I want to hear his thoughts & memories.
As Sylvia told me last saturday, "I will always be Mando Ramos' wife."
She was his angel, and always well be.


-Rick Farris
Last edited by Rick Farris on 01 Oct 2009, 20:03, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by fatcity69 »

Rick Farris wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:Rick,that's a great story on Ramos. Now put the finishing touch on it with his passing. :TU:
I have a few other things to add, as well.
Since writing this story, I have spent a lot of time with Mando and Sylvia Ramos.
Mando wanted me to write his life story and today I am very motivated to do just that. I need to speak with his father, and more with Sylvia.
I know things that went on behind the scenes that will really add to it.
In fact, I'm going to have to tear this story down and rebuild it for our project. In fact, all of my past stories need work.
Mando's will have a different beginning & different ending
I wrote many in Arizona. Today I have access to the fighters, again.
However, this is a good working draft. The next one will dive deeper
I don't know if you noticed, but Sylvia stopped by our table to say hello to me on saturday.
She volunteered to help me. I got a lot from Mando, the best from before he was a headliner. His youth in boxing. Stuff he told me of he and Jackie, Lee Prila, Aileen.
Some of his stories, such as meeting Speedy Dado, who was selling programs outside the Olympic Auditium in the mid-60's.
You see, when you grow up in boxing, like Mando did, he was around all these legends. It's humorous listening to his youthful opinion of the old timers, guys like Speedy Dado.
Also, he tells of being punished for his wild lifestyle by his father, who would make him box with El Gato if he came to the gym with a hangover.
Rodolfo Gonzalez was a deadly body puncher. It wasn't uncommon for Mando to go down. And there's Gonzalez' memories. These really add to my memories.
I also need to talk with Don Chargin. We spoke awhile back, but not about Mando. I want to hear his thoughts & memories.


-Rick Farris
I havent written in here too much but often drop by and read your recollections of Mando and other fighters and just want to say that I think you have everything there you need to write a realy good biography on Mando and I hope some day to be reading it. Ive got about 10 of his fights and he was an exceptional boxer, and fascinating character.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

fatcity69 wrote:
Rick Farris wrote:
dagosd2000 wrote:Rick,that's a great story on Ramos. Now put the finishing touch on it with his passing. :TU:
I have a few other things to add, as well.
Since writing this story, I have spent a lot of time with Mando and Sylvia Ramos.
Mando wanted me to write his life story and today I am very motivated to do just that. I need to speak with his father, and more with Sylvia.
I know things that went on behind the scenes that will really add to it.
In fact, I'm going to have to tear this story down and rebuild it for our project. In fact, all of my past stories need work.
Mando's will have a different beginning & different ending
I wrote many in Arizona. Today I have access to the fighters, again.
However, this is a good working draft. The next one will dive deeper
I don't know if you noticed, but Sylvia stopped by our table to say hello to me on saturday.
She volunteered to help me. I got a lot from Mando, the best from before he was a headliner. His youth in boxing. Stuff he told me of he and Jackie, Lee Prila, Aileen.
Some of his stories, such as meeting Speedy Dado, who was selling programs outside the Olympic Auditium in the mid-60's.
You see, when you grow up in boxing, like Mando did, he was around all these legends. It's humorous listening to his youthful opinion of the old timers, guys like Speedy Dado.
Also, he tells of being punished for his wild lifestyle by his father, who would make him box with El Gato if he came to the gym with a hangover.
Rodolfo Gonzalez was a deadly body puncher. It wasn't uncommon for Mando to go down. And there's Gonzalez' memories. These really add to my memories.
I also need to talk with Don Chargin. We spoke awhile back, but not about Mando. I want to hear his thoughts & memories.


-Rick Farris
I havent written in here too much but often drop by and read your recollections of Mando and other fighters and just want to say that I think you have everything there you need to write a realy good biography on Mando and I hope some day to be reading it. Ive got about 10 of his fights and he was an exceptional boxer, and fascinating character.

Thank you. I appreciate your kind words. Mando was an exceptional boxer, and fascinating charactor.


-Rick
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Image

Mando Ramos (revised)

Really thinking about what I'm doing. With my mind clear of a lot of things,I reflect on what I've painted. Corrections,revisions,touch ups. Whatever you want to call it. It's getting compulsive with me. In a way that's good. In a way that's bad. :OhYes: :witzend:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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To Fatcity69

Feel free to post here. Sometimes I wander to another thread. Some old insults and attacks.I caught how you were responded to by another poster on another thread. I couldn't take that stuff day in,day out. I guess that's what a lot of guys want to do. I was almost going to throw in the towel on The Forum until we got it going here with Classic West Coast Boxing.

Take care. :TU:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by fatcity69 »

dagosd2000 wrote:To Fatcity69

Feel free to post here. Sometimes I wander to another thread. Some old insults and attacks.I caught how you were responded to by another poster on another thread. I couldn't take that stuff day in,day out. I guess that's what a lot of guys want to do. I was almost going to throw in the towel on The Forum until we got it going here with Classic West Coast Boxing.

Take care. :TU:

Thanks :TU: I've been coming on here on and off since about 2003 and one of the reasons I got out of the habit of coming on was the trolls, but Ive been pulled back in lately by the interesting discussions in this thread in particular, plus Ive reached a point where certain trolls can only make me laugh and shake my head more than anything else. So time willing i think I'll be popping in a bit more frequently in the future. It does seem to be habit forming lol. I enjoy seeing your artwork on here, you really have the touch. I paint myself, so can appreciate all that goes into creating those portraits, looking forward to seeing more... Cheers! :box:
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

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dagosd2000 wrote:Image

Mando Ramos (revised)

Really thinking about what I'm doing. With my mind clear of a lot of things,I reflect on what I've painted. Corrections,revisions,touch ups. Whatever you want to call it. It's getting compulsive with me. In a way that's good. In a way that's bad. :OhYes: :witzend:



Mando Ramos & Apollo Creed . . .

Rog . . . I don't care how many times I rewrite something if I feel I can make it better.
I know this. If there is any chance that Mando Ramos' spirit is looking down on this thread, he has a big smile on his face.
Mando loved attention.

As it just so happens, I have another Mando story from 2002, when he and Syvia visted me on a film set.
I was doing a TV series for the Lifetime Network that starred Lea Thompson, "For The People"
The director on the episode was actor Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in Rocky.

At lunch one day, Weathers told me that when he was learning to box for the Rocky film, he sparred with lightweight Frankie Crawford.
We had a few laughs discussing Frankie Crawford and the name Mando Ramos came up.
Weathers said Mando Ramos was his all-time favorite boxer.
I told him I was in contact with Mando and he asked me to invite Mando & Sylvia to the set.

The next day Mando came with his wife and they spent several hours on the set and ate lunch with Carl Weathers.
There were a lot of boxing fans on the set and all knew Mando Ramos.
When Mando was on the set, a production assistant would bring he and Sylvia food, drinks, anything they wanted.
Mando was walking with his cane that day. His back gave him trouble thruout his life and career.
He was treated with the respect he deserved and was invited to return to play a background part, which he did.

After that, Mando would call me up out of the blue.
He'd ask, "Hey Rick. I'm really bored, can I come to work with you?"
The last time Mando was to meet me on the set was early June, last year.
In fact, both Mando and Rodolfo Gonzalez were going to come in together and visit me on the set of "The Cleaner".
I convinced the Executive Producer to consider a "boxing" episode, and wanted to include the two former champs.
The show's creator, Warren Boyd, wanted to meet both Ramos and Gonzalez, Mando especially due to his past drug addiction.
He would write in a part for both lightweight legends.

On the day they were to come, only Rodolfo showed up. I talked to Mando and he was in a lot of pain, would come another time.
I knew he had to be feeling bad, he loved coming on the film sets because he was so popular and well treated.
A week later, he was dead.


-Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by scartissue »

Hey guys, haven't been on here in awhile, through no fault of my own. It's just that there was poor internet access on my cell-block. Well...that sounds better than explaining how I've been just buried in work. Man, I've just got so much on my plate right now getting an opportunity to unravel here on this board is such a luxury. I looked at the date and realized, "Man, I'm going to be seeing these guys in about 3 weeks." I'm looking forward to seeing all of you. Rick, Pops says, "Give Rick a kick in the balls for me." I said, "Do it yourself, you're coming too."

Scartissue
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

scartissue wrote:Hey guys, haven't been on here in awhile, through no fault of my own. It's just that there was poor internet access on my cell-block. Well...that sounds better than explaining how I've been just buried in work. Man, I've just got so much on my plate right now getting an opportunity to unravel here on this board is such a luxury. I looked at the date and realized, "Man, I'm going to be seeing these guys in about 3 weeks." I'm looking forward to seeing all of you. Rick, Pops says, "Give Rick a kick in the balls for me." I said, "Do it yourself, you're coming too."

Scartissue

Dan . . . I'm glad that I still have a custom made foul-proof cup made for me 40 years ago by Tony Marino, at the Main Street Gym.
I'll be sure to wear it under my suit October 24th. As Mel Epstein used to say, "Dont f__k with an old man. I still got one good shot left in me."
I'll keep my eye on Pops.

Pops is a true "Hall of Famer". :OhYes:


-Ricardo
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by scartissue »

Pops is a true "Hall of Famer". :OhYes:


-Ricardo[/quote]

I heard that too. LOL! BTW, have fun tomorrow at the Toytiger premiere. I know you met up with Brad, I would imagine Art's in town as well for this. Catch up on old times, dude. I'll bet you two have alot of Suey Welch stories.

Scartissue
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

Image

Joe Frazier
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by kikibalt »

Robert Guerreo loses court battle
September 30, 2009 by Edgar Gonzalez


DECISION RETURNS IBF SUPER FEATHERWEIGHT CHAMPION’S RIGHTS TO PROMOTER

In a ruling yesterday that sent a strong message to the California State Athletic Commission (“CSAC”), Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Robert H. O’Brien, on behalf of Judge Maureen Duffy-Lewis vacated an arbitration decision by a CSAC arbitrator that voided boxer Robert Guerrero’s promotional agreement with Goossen Tutor Promotions, finding “The award was procured by corruption, fraud or other undue means.” California Code of Civil Procedure § 1286.2(a)(1). As a result, Goossen Tutor Promotions remains the promoter of Guerrero pursuant to its Promotional Agreement.

After changing managers in 2007, Guerrero tried to get out of his promotion agreement with Goossen Tutor, claiming the five-year term of the agreement had expired. Goossen countered that the agreement, which was signed by Guerrero, his mangers, and a representative of CSAC, provided for extensions due to various injuries and suspensions. According to the CSAC’s own rules, then Executive Officer Armando Garcia was to arbitrate the dispute.

Mr. Garcia conducted the arbitration, heard from the witnesses, took evidence, and under CSAC’s own rules, had until November 14, 2008, to issue his decision. He did not issue his decision and four days later, tendered his resignation, effective December 31, 2008. Although Mr. Garcia remained CSAC’s Executive Director and was on the State’s payroll at the time, on December 12, 2008, Garcia’s assistant, Bill Douglas, issued a so-called “Decision of the Arbitrator” in favor of Guerrero, who immediately signed a promotional deal with Golden Boy Promotions.

When Goossen questioned why Mr. Garcia, as the sole arbitrator, did not issue and sign the decision himself, Deputy Attorney General Earl Plowman claimed the decision was reached by Mr. Garcia, who was not available to sign it.

However, Goossen Tutor was able to prove to the satisfaction of the Court, that the Decision was not Mr. Garcia’s but was procured through “fraud, corruption, or undue means.” As it turns out Mr. Plowman had actually authored the Decision, which was never issued by, reviewed by, approved by, or even seen by Mr. Garcia when CSAC issued it as a purportedly binding decision. In fact, Mr. Garcia was available to CSAC after he tendered his resignation, and was actually contacted twice after Goossen asked the Court to vacate the arbitration award, once by Mr. Plowman’s supervisor, Ms. Karen Chappelle, and once by a CSAC Commissioner. Both times, Mr. Garcia declined to support the Decision.

Before forcing Goossen Tutor to court to vacate the Decision, Goossen asked CSAC to order a new arbitration. CSAC deadlocked at 3-3, and tabled the motion, eventually refusing to vote. As Goossen’s counsel, Nomi Castle, of Castle and Associates in Century City, CA, explained:

“We lost the arbitration unfairly and we filed what would be the equivalent of an appeal because arbitration is done under the auspices of the State of California, and the California State Athletic Commission has a scheme for handling its cases through arbitration as opposed to a court,” Castle explained.

“This was the only way we have to challenge the award, other than appearing before the commissioners which Dan Goossen did, receiving 3 votes of 6 ruling to re-arbitrate. After the support from the commissioners for re-arbitration, the Commission backed off of that and said they don’t have jurisdiction and we would have to take them to court to pursue the issues we had. Which is exactly what we did. In essence we filed an appeal or a writ. We brought a petition to vacate the arbitration award and/or as an alternative to stay the enforcement of that arbitration award pending discovery as to who actually issues the decision on arbitration because Armando Garcia was the arbitrator, and yet he was not the person who made the decision or signed the award. And we brought our petition in front of a court on various legal grounds and the petition was granted.

“This was the correct decision,” Castle said. “It was the one we were after and the court recognized that there was corruption and fraud on the part of the Commission and the way they handled this matter in issuing the arbitration ruling in favor of Guerrero. As a practical matter, Goossen Tutor Promotions is still the promoter of Mr. Guerrero and I’ll leave it to my client to discuss his future promotional plans.”

Goossen’s counsel, Farzad Tabatabai of Castle & Associates added: “Justice was done. The Court’s ruling correctly recognizes what should be obvious to everyone: an arbitration decision that is drafted by someone other than the arbitrator and signed by an outsider to the arbitration, without ever being seen by, reviewed by, or approved by the arbitrator, may not be binding on the parties. The question that remains to be answered is how CSAC and the Attorney General’s office allowed this to happen in the first place.”
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by scartissue »

www.toytigermovie.com

I hope this comes out. This is the link for the Art Hafey Toytiger documentary. There is oodles of info on here. Also, Roger, you 'll be interested to see a Burke Emery interview on Art. I guess Burke's memory ain't what it used to be.

Scartissue
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

delete
Last edited by Rick Farris on 02 Oct 2009, 16:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by Rick Farris »

dagosd2000 wrote:Image

Joe Frazier

Joe Frazier . . .

I'll never forget Joe Frazier coming to Los Angeles early in his professional career.
Aside from my stablemate, Jerry Quarry, Frazier was my favorite of the young heavyweights on the horizon.

I remember skipping school on his first day of training at the Main Street Gym.
Frazier had come to L.A. about a week before a scheduled ten-round main event, when he'd face Chuck Leslie at the Olympic.
I knew all about "Smokin' Joe", the '64 Olympic Gold medalist who'd racked up eight straight KO's before making his West Coast debut.

The gym was packed as I squeezed thru the door to enter the gym. Reporter's, fight people and fans had gym owner Howie Steindler on edge.
"Move to the side so as the boxers can skip rope!", Steindler barked at several spectators who'd wandered onto the workout floor.
I pushed my way thru the crowd and positioned myself next to the bigger of two rings that stood at one end of the gym floor.
Trainer Duke Holloway saw me and pointed to a prime viewing spot next to the ring. "You stand right here son, and you'll see everything real good", Duke instructed.

A moment later I saw Yancey Durham, Frazier's manager, across the room as he stepped out of the dressing room area. Walking beside him carrying an equipment bag was trainer Eddie Futch.
Directly behind them , hands wrapped and ready to go, was the future heavyweight champion of the world, Joe Frazier.

When Frazier made his way to the middle of the gym floor the fans began to applaud. Frazier nodded to the crowd and climbed into the ring above me.
Unbeaten future lightweight champ, Mando Ramos, usually trained at the Hoover Street Gym, however, he was on hand for some publicity photos with Frazier.
Before Frazier began to warm-up and shadow box, he posed for a photo with Ramos. I was surprised to see that Mando, who weighed less than 130lbs. was as tall as Joe.
Frazier was shorter than Jerry Quarry, who himself was not a big heavyweight. However, Frazier was packed solid at roughly 200 pounds. His legs were thick as tree trunks.

After the Olympic champ had shadow boxed, Futch called him to the side and spread vaseline on his face. He then slipped heavy training gloves on his hands and a headgear.
Joe's first sparring partner was a pretty good L.A. heavyweight named Matt Blow. Blow gave Frazier a good workout but everytime Joe got close he would slam Matt with brutal hooks to the body.
The body shots landed with a thud and just before the bell ending the second round, Matt Blow took a knee and caught his breath after one took his wind away. The crowd went crazy.
Two more sparring partners followed, and the second, Pasadena's Wayne Kindred, also hit the deck before the final bell.
The last guy to step in with the future all-time great was a cagey vet, Eddie "Bossman" Jones.
Jones gave Frazier a lot more trouble than the others and the two put on quite an exhibition.
I was quite impressed with Joe Frazier.

The following thursday night, I would watch Joe Frazier on TV for the first time. It would be the first of many times that Joe Frazier would captivate my interest on television.
Wearing white trunks and white boxing boots, Joe Frazier would runover Chuck Leslie, stopping the game but outgunned trial horse in the third round.
The following week, Frazier would again be showcased in the Olympic's televised main event. This time he iced Memphis Al Jones in the first round.

My mind immediatly thought about a future match between Frazier and my stablemate, another unbeaten heavyweight, "Irish" Jerry Quarry.
"What a great match-up", I thought. "What would happen in that one?"

I would find out exactly three years later, when Jerry Quarry would challenge Joe Frazier for the World Heavyweight championship in Madison Square Garden.
The rest is history.



-Rick Farris
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Re: Classic American West Coast Boxing

Post by dagosd2000 »

scartissue wrote:http://www.toytigermovie.com

I hope this comes out. This is the link for the Art Hafey Toytiger documentary. There is oodles of info on here. Also, Roger, you 'll be interested to see a Burke Emery interview on Art. I guess Burke's memory ain't what it used to be.

Scartissue

Dan
I was just going to the thread to comment on Burke and his reaction to the movie. His girlfriend Shirley was going to call me about maybe getting him up there tomorrow. No call yet. I won't be going. Still can't put too much together on what happened after talking to Burke about Toy Bulldog.

I'll give you an example of how this goes. I talked to Burke about the CBHOF Banquet. Told him who was there. Little Red. Bobby Chacon. Mando Muniz. etc. He becomes very enthusiastic.Interested. Starts opening up about his past and his memories of past fighters.Then.
"By the way,was Little Red Lopez at the banquet?"

He's a great guy .Everybody loves him and Shirley. Burke will lament about his boxing career.
"I had over 80 fights,"he says staring at the video dart game he has in the bar.

I asked him if he would like to be inducted into the CBHOF.
"Oh no. Not me."
He never gives an explanation and I never ask why. I don't want to upset him.

He talks a lot about Hafey. Burke says that he let him go because Art was taking too much punishment. Art's side is different. Maybe the take on this movie was that Hafey wasn't handled right and that's why he never got his shot and wound up with health issues. Maybe that's why Burke doesn't want to go up there tomorrow.

But what do I know? He could show up. If he does,I wonder what him and Hafey will have to discuss?

Sure am looking forward to seeing you and your "Pops" at the WBHOF. Rog
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