why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Controversial
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Controversial »

The Great John L wrote:For all those who claim that BRR posts lack the humor of Cranberry posts, I submit the following.
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:You didn't list any attributes you define best by. By legacy, Lewis, Byrd, Gomez. By ring performance, Sanders, Lewis, Arreola. By filling the coffers, Peter, Gomez, Sanders.
The ring performances of Corrie Sanders, who did not beat a single world class HW not named Klitschko are superior to the ring performances of Lennox Lewis. This is classic stuff.

Although I guess since I’m here quoting him, at least his trolling does work.
What makes me laugh is in recent posts he has done his best to criticize Holyfield, Lewis, Holmes and Ali (black fighters) but praise Marciano, Sanders, Dempsey, Arreoloa and Vitali (white fighters)

Are you sensing a pattern here?
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Grimm »

I think I'm starting to place him in the top 10 now.

There were many great fighters that had off nights and many greats have been stopped before.

Myth number 1

Lewis' chin was not so bad.

How many times was he dropped?

Twice?

He fought lot's of huge punchers and took some shots from them as well.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Controversial »

Grimm wrote:I think I'm starting to place him in the top 10 now.

There were many great fighters that had off nights and many greats have been stopped before.

Myth number 1

Lewis' chin was not so bad.

How many times was he dropped?

Twice?

He fought lot's of huge punchers and took some shots from them as well.
Someone with some sense. I totally agree. Fighters with glass jaws do not beat punchers like Ruddock, Mason, Bruno, Tyson, Tua, Briggs, Klitschko, Mercer, Morrison etc..... without hitting the floor.

Lewis got caught plain and simple and he was caught flush by big punchers. It can happen to anyone. What matters is how you deal with defeat, Lewis gave them both rematches and stopped them. You can't do much more than that.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by SaadOffTheDeck »

Lennox pretty much has to be top 10, at a minimal top12. Vitali isn't even in the discussion. Saying he is greater than Lennox is the same thing as saying Zab Judah is greater than Mayweather. It's precisely that ridiculous.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

Controversial wrote: Oh dear. You name Byrd who took the fight on one weeks notice and Vitali quit against him (oops)
- Vitali also took the fight on short notice, and regardless, Byrd a notorious gym rat always in training was a very active fighter then. He was 210 for the fight, a perfect weight for him.

Whooops, Lewis gave up his IBF belt rather than face his mandatory Byrd. No surprise there since he gave up all 3 of his belts including the lucrative superfight rematch with Vitali. The "LION" eh, LOL!
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

The Great John L wrote:For all those who claim that BRR posts lack the humor of Cranberry posts, I submit the following.
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:You didn't list any attributes you define best by. By legacy, Lewis, Byrd, Gomez. By ring performance, Sanders, Lewis, Arreola. By filling the coffers, Peter, Gomez, Sanders.
The ring performances of Corrie Sanders, who did not beat a single world class HW not named Klitschko are superior to the ring performances of Lennox Lewis. This is classic stuff.

Although I guess since I’m here quoting him, at least his trolling does work.
- I see the Dumber and his Dumberest twin below have their little tag team going.

That's singular performance, as in Sanders came the closest in Vitali's career to knocking him out and he certainly hurt him more than Lewis did. Also got a KD on Lewis that was mistakenly ruled a slip in the middle of the world of hurt Vitali was absorbing.

Lewis got his rump carved up and was lucky with the Mother of all Fluke Cuts because he wasn't otherwise scheduled to make it past 8 at that pace and punishment. Sanders also demolished Wlad who was the consensus Ring #1 contender at the time whereas Lewis was ducking Wlad as well as Vitali back then.

I did credit Lewis with the 2nd best performance against Vitali, he did stage a comeback thanks to the mother of all fluke cuts, so live with it since I never compared the careers of Sanders to Lewis.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

Controversial wrote: What makes me laugh is in recent posts he has done his best to criticize Holyfield, Lewis, Holmes and Ali (black fighters) but praise Marciano, Sanders, Dempsey, Arreoloa and Vitali (white fighters)

Are you sensing a pattern here?
- HAR-HAR-HAR!!!!!! He played the race card, the last refuge of a worm.

No doubt Arreola will jump for joy to find out he's a white fighter and throw a big catered party of haggis, bratwurst and sourkraut, and stuffed escargot.

I seldom criticise Lewis, but in this case I'm having fun with your dumberest overranking of him by comparing the Vitali record. You're nothing but a free comedy show for me over the internet. Mr. Field, Mr. Larry, and Ali deserve the criticisms I give them. Guess Tyson, Louis, Langford, Charles, all fighters who's ring acumen I've backed are white now too.

- HAR-HAR-HAR!!!!!!
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

"Someone with some sense. I totally agree. Fighters with glass jaws do not beat punchers like Ruddock, Mason, Bruno, Tyson, Tua, Briggs, Klitschko, Mercer, Morrison etc..... without hitting the floor.

Lewis got caught plain and simple and he was caught flush by big punchers. It can happen to anyone. What matters is how you deal with defeat, Lewis gave them both rematches and stopped them. You can't do much more than that." - Controversial


Leaving Lewis specifically out for the sake of a hypothetical, what you're saying doesn't add up. What if a fighter had Whitaker-esque defense, & rarely, if ever, was struck by an opponent, much less struck cleanly? They can't have a glass jaw & still best heavy-handed opposition?
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Controversial »

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
I seldom criticise Lewis
Row row row your boat. I smell a tinge of back peddling recently. Beginning to make yourself look stupid and now trying to grasp on something that resemble sensible talk. After slagging Lewis off you were asked to name Vitalis best opponents. You name Lewis and then go on to say you rate Lewis as the 12th best heavy ever. Then you have the nerve to say you seldom criticize Lewis (hahaha), really when exactly have you said anything positive about him?

Considering you have done your best to pick holes in his record and say he has a glass jaw, I find that even more laughable than your feeble attempt to compare Vitalis record to Lewis's.

Its far easier to pick holes in Vitalis record than Lewis' and you know it. If Lewis has a glass jaw why couldn't Vitali knock him out? I can list several decent fighters that Lewis beat and all you can muster is Arreola, Sanders, Gomez and Peter (oops)

Your getting your knickers in a twist and begging to sound like your have tourettes. You can't win this argument and you are resorting to name calling. Very childish.

Can't we be friends? I am white so you should like me.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Controversial »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Someone with some sense. I totally agree. Fighters with glass jaws do not beat punchers like Ruddock, Mason, Bruno, Tyson, Tua, Briggs, Klitschko, Mercer, Morrison etc..... without hitting the floor.

Lewis got caught plain and simple and he was caught flush by big punchers. It can happen to anyone. What matters is how you deal with defeat, Lewis gave them both rematches and stopped them. You can't do much more than that." - Controversial


Leaving Lewis specifically out for the sake of a hypothetical, what you're saying doesn't add up. What if a fighter had Whitaker-esque defense, & rarely, if ever, was struck by an opponent, much less struck cleanly? They can't have a glass jaw & still best heavy-handed opposition?
But I was referring to Lewis. He didn't have a Whitaker like defence and was caught by many big punchers without ever hitting the canvas. Many people argue Lewis had a glass jaw. I don't think he did or he would have been found out many more times than he was.

Yes of course if you have a great defence and a crap chin you can wins fights against big punchers without being knocked down or hurt. But I was specifically talking about Lewis in this instance.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

Controversial wrote: Considering you have done your best to pick holes in his record and say he has a glass jaw, I find that even more laughable .
- Not only do you do your best to not know the first thing about boxing, but you can't even get basic day to day dialogue straight,

I have never in any form ever even suggested Lewis had a glass jaw unless I was borrowing that bone through your noggin for comedic effect.

Now, since you make Lewis #5, let's see the rest of the 9 heavies in your top 10 for first rate comedy. Now, this is gonna be RICH, so stay tuned!
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Grimm »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Someone with some sense. I totally agree. Fighters with glass jaws do not beat punchers like Ruddock, Mason, Bruno, Tyson, Tua, Briggs, Klitschko, Mercer, Morrison etc..... without hitting the floor.

Lewis got caught plain and simple and he was caught flush by big punchers. It can happen to anyone. What matters is how you deal with defeat, Lewis gave them both rematches and stopped them. You can't do much more than that." - Controversial


Leaving Lewis specifically out for the sake of a hypothetical, what you're saying doesn't add up. What if a fighter had Whitaker-esque defense, & rarely, if ever, was struck by an opponent, much less struck cleanly? They can't have a glass jaw & still best heavy-handed opposition?
What if Pernell Whitaker had the power of George Foreman?

Would he still be a defensive fighter?

Kind of pointless right now isn't it?
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

"But I was referring to Lewis. He didn't have a Whitaker like defence and was caught by many big punchers without ever hitting the canvas. Many people argue Lewis had a glass jaw. I don't think he did or he would have been found out many more times than he was.

Yes of course if you have a great defence and a crap chin you can wins fights against big punchers without being knocked down or hurt. But I was specifically talking about Lewis in this instance." - Controversial


I don't subscribe to the theory he was glass-jawed, but I do think he was what I would call, "chinny." It's the way I thought of Felix Trinidad --- a guy who was down often, & could be rocked quite readily, the difference being Trinidad's powers of recovery were much better than were Lewis'. McCall & Rahman were not really monster hitters, & nor was Briggs, who had Lewis dancing like a puppet. They all had respectable power, but seldom, if ever, did they lay credible guys out abruptly.

I do class Lewis' chin as below-average, but it might be a little under-rated in general. What really exposed him in those losses was his inability to recuperate (& I never really bought the idea he was prematurely-stopped against McCall --- he was pretty out of it).
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

"What if Pernell Whitaker had the power of George Foreman?

Would he still be a defensive fighter?

Kind of pointless right now isn't it?" - Grimm


I was saying a fighter with a glass jaw can be successful against big hitters. What's so difficult to understand?
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Grimm »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"What if Pernell Whitaker had the power of George Foreman?

Would he still be a defensive fighter?

Kind of pointless right now isn't it?" - Grimm


I was saying a fighter with a glass jaw can be successful against big hitters. What's so difficult to understand?
That is not what is hard to understand.

What is hard to understand is what did that have to do with Lennox Lewis?
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

My contention is Lewis' chin wasn't great, nothing more than that. Most people call him glass-jawed, others say it's a myth. I'm just stating I don't really fit either point of view, however, I did think Controversial slightly over-rated his chin.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

"look its a good debate , in my opinion lewis inst as good as my top 10 , with tyson i was swaying with dempsey to be included

lewis was a great fighter , his resume is good but he did not fight the best of the era , holyfield did that , tyson did that in his time.

lewis should have fought mercer again but didnt , a fight that was very close , i scored a draw , he also did the same with klitscko , if he beats these 2 then yes he might get nearer the top 10

tyson is the youngest ever champ and unified the division so easily , nearly twice , that is another reason he is ahead of lewis.

these are my thoughts , like everyone they have thier own and not everyone agrees , im trying to answer the questions the other fans have been asking on why lewis isnt in the top 10" - Bob


I'm not sure what you want from Lewis, here. His level of competition is consistently superior to Tyson's. From the first three years of their career, it's true Tyson holds a distinct advantage --- to be expected, as he peaked much, much earlier.

However, you must notice Lewis' domination of the division was far longer than Tyson's, & surely you agree the 90's was a deeper talent pool than the 80's. Post-1995, look how steep the distinction in opponents' faced between the two is. It's a yawning chasm. Additionally, Lewis annihilated Tyson head-to-head. OK, that was a shot Tyson, & I agree with you that, peak-for-peak, Lewis loses that fight. Even so, they were both great fighters, but one did a whole lot more with his talent than the other.

For all his super-abilities, I rank Tyson as one of the most shocking under-achievers in the sports history.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Collins2000 »

Grimm wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:"What if Pernell Whitaker had the power of George Foreman?

Would he still be a defensive fighter?

Kind of pointless right now isn't it?" - Grimm


I was saying a fighter with a glass jaw can be successful against big hitters. What's so difficult to understand?
That is not what is hard to understand.

What is hard to understand is what did that have to do with Lennox Lewis?
I gave up trying to understand Irene ages ago.

She made even less sense than BRR.

:KO:
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by yancey »

Collins2000 wrote:
Grimm wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote:"What if Pernell Whitaker had the power of George Foreman?

Would he still be a defensive fighter?

Kind of pointless right now isn't it?" - Grimm


I was saying a fighter with a glass jaw can be successful against big hitters. What's so difficult to understand?
That is not what is hard to understand.

What is hard to understand is what did that have to do with Lennox Lewis?
I gave up trying to understand Irene ages ago.

She made even less sense than BRR.

:KO:


Irene seems lucid to me.

Don't know about the other guy.

Don't know about you, either. :D
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

Pay him no mind (I wouldn't have known he posted about me, save for the fact you quoted him), he is a strangely vindictive little fellow, who develops axes to grind against multiple people for little or no apparent reason.

His desperate attempts to make an ally out of Robinson in recent times have seen him good for a chuckle, however. I think he is attempting to build a following to oust me from the forum.

Very strange. Very tenacious :DD
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Collins2000 »

yancey wrote: Don't know about the other guy.

Don't know about you, either. :D
I got you figured though.

Watch out when Irene starts PMing you though. She's one crazy lady.

:lol:
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Goodnight, Irene »

High praise, indeed, from someone who once insisted on resolving a dispute on this forum about Ali by meeting in person to, "fight it out."

:lol:
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Controversial »

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
I have never in any form ever even suggested Lewis had a glass jaw
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
Lewis went from glass jawed bum to all time great

Still denying you said Lewis had a glass jaw. And that bum beat Vitali (oops)
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: Byrd a notorious gym rat always in training was a very active fighter then. He was 210 for the fight, a perfect weight for him
So pro fighters don't bother training to fight against specific styles or sizes? Maybe if he had time to train against someone 6'8" Byrd may have done better. Boxing isn't just about fitness, you will get to learn about this when your boxing knowledge increases. (oops)
BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: Whooops, Lewis gave up his IBF belt rather than face his mandatory Byrd The "LION" eh, LOL!
Oh dear. So by suggesting Lewis avoided Byrd you must think Byrd would have won, or what point are your trying to make. Because Byrd was avoided by everyone, no one wanted a piece of Byrd (hahahah) What you don't seem to realise is boxing is a lot about marketing and money making. Lewis vs Byrd wouldn't have generated much money as most people outside the boxing world wouldnt know Byrd if they bumped into him. A pointless fight for Lewis and one he would have won anyway. Lewis wanted the big names and the big money. Who can blame him for that?

1/10 for effort. Must try harder.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by Controversial »

Goodnight, Irene wrote:My contention is Lewis' chin wasn't great, nothing more than that. Most people call him glass-jawed, others say it's a myth. I'm just stating I don't really fit either point of view, however, I did think Controversial slightly over-rated his chin.
I wouldn't say I over rate his chin, he was no Chuvalo I give you that. I just don't think its as bad as some say it is.

Its no secret Lewis took the first Rahman fight lightly. Whilst training in South Africa his camp where saying Lewis was getting tired and they should have done more altitude work. He only went out there two weeks before the fight, shocking peparation. He was fighting at 6000 feet and to not acclimatise was madness. Something Rahman did train for. Plus Lewis was busy flying to the States to film the Oceans 11 scene when he should have been training. The fact he also came in at a career heaviest 253.5lbs against Rahman shows he was underprepared. Not taking anything away from Rahman, he did what he done but I do think the previously mentioned factors should be taken into consideration.

In the rematch Lewis came in half a stone lighter and smashed Rahman like he should have done the first time round.

I agree he wasn't in a position to continue against McCall. It happened to soon into the round for him to recover. However McCall was a big bloke and a big puncher puncher, its not like he was knocked out by Larry Donald.

People who moan about his chin fail to mention that Joe Louis was knocked out before he was a champ. Ali was flattened and saved by the bell by a 13 stone Henry Cooper. Frazier was dropped several times and stopped. Nothing stops these fighters from being some peoples greatest heavyweights ever.
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Re: why i cant make lennox lewis a top 10 all time heavyweight

Post by BroughtonRulesRefuge »

Controversial wrote:Oh dear. So by suggesting Lewis avoided Byrd you must think Byrd would have won, or what point are your trying to make. Because Byrd was avoided by everyone, no one wanted a piece of Byrd (hahahah) What you don't seem to realise is boxing is a lot about marketing and money making. Lewis vs Byrd wouldn't have generated much money as most people outside the boxing world wouldnt know Byrd if they bumped into him. A pointless fight for Lewis and one he would have won anyway. Lewis wanted the big names and the big money. Who can blame him for that?

1/10 for effort. Must try harder.
- The points that I make can be found on the point on the top of your noggin formed from years of wearing the dunce cap.

Your summary of the glass jaw comment is the synopsis of a prodigious school thought regarding Lewis going into the Tyson bout. While Lewis was favored because of the considerable longterm decline of Tyson, huge money was put on the early Tyson KO of Lewis. I included the overranking of Lewis AFTER the bout as a point of extreme references of the ridiculous manner you and your ilk are prone to go in ranking your favorite boys. The idiocy or the disingenuity is yours my little race baiting friend.

Byrd had much more experience with Jameel McCline being his best friend and sparmate against a Vitali type on short notice than Vitali did against the Byrd type which is beyond duplication, but again, yet another example of you not being bright enough to understand basic boxing.

It really don't matter who anyone thinks would win a Byrd/Lewis fight, it's a fact that Byrd got near or at the top of the Ring rankings at one point, became Lewis' mandatory, and Lewis sold his belt to King, taking step aside money rather than fight Byrd. Lewis never fought any of the premiere southpaw challengers of his era, Byrd, Sanders, Moorer, and Oquendo, not even a journeyman southpaw. Looks like he was carefully matched away given the evidence.

Lewis gave up his IBF belt for the disaster that turned out to be the Kirk Johnson bout, a much smaller venue and bout against a lesser ranked contender, so this nonsense about bigger names and bigger money is just you making up your little porkies like some school boy winging his way through his term paper in hopes he can squeeze out a D- to squeeze out a passing grade.

This can be seen in your Rahman/Lewis 1 summary where you blame bad condition for the Lewis loss, when in fact he was easily controlling a slow paced beatdown on Rahman who was looking like the intimidated sack of you against any bully. A near shutout until the single lucky punch, and Rahman did have a great right when he landed it. So you make up lies about stamina and training when those played no factor whatsoever in the fight because some other jughaid made up some nonsense that got spread around.

The comedy part is that you are fully grown and haven't advanced a single step beyond those porkie days of being picked at by teachers and school bullies, a big goof in bigger pants.
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