WILLIAMS KLITSCHKO SPOILER

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 12 Dec 2004, 12:37

The weight he came in at was total bullshit. What the hell kind of twisted logic was McDonnell thinking? He was a sitting duck at that size. His feet would be way too slow to get inside. Sounds like a bullshit excuse not to train to me. Maybe Danny hates roadwork and Jim can't be arsed getting Danny to do it. They done a Kirk Johnson.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Dec 2004, 12:59

fornicating Gutted, the lad fought brave - but that is the only compliment I am going to give him in this post.

What a blomming waste, I'm sorry but I switched off the tele feeling angered at this fight.

Not taking anything away from Klitchsko, but what was Danny doing in there "fighting" like that. People now stateside are calling Williams a fraud for beating a washed up Tyson with quotes such as "this proves how washed up Tyson was". I have to understand their quotes it does look like that at face value. However, let us all not forget that end of the Tyson fight - 25 fast, unanswered punches. TWENTY FIVE, did Danny throw more than three punches at a time throughout this contest.

Where was the intensity, where was the movement that we were promised. Was it the weight? I mean, he looked fast in training, surely he could have started off fast and then got knackered early. He never started fast it was one big plod. When I first watched the fight, I blamed Danny's weight for his downfall (I will give Klitchsko his due later on). However, I watched the replay with my old man who said in the first round (without knowing the result) "Danny is afraid to fight", he didn't mind surviving and taking a tremendous beating, but he thought he was afraid to commit. I have to admit it did remind me alot of his effort vs Samil Sam, we all blamed that loss on his mental state. He was gutsy in defeat there, but never really tried to win the fight.

The pity is that I think Danny could have done so much better than this, like I said he threw 25 unanswered punches vs Tyson. It was a bad Williams that fought Klitchsko, I'm not saying he would have beaten him but I think he could have given as good an account for himself as Corrie Sanders did. He was no short of terrible and I think the weight and mental state (combination) cost him dear, and I would say any chance of another title fight with a lesser champion.

Look at the Keith Long fight, the guy can fight at a hard workrate (whilst taking shots) why was he so lethargic, slow and lazy on this occasion. It was almost like the Greenberg vs Francis fight on Friday.

As for Klitchsko, he will prove to be a very good champion, he has an underated shot variety and a thumping jab. He is also a natural fighter, which his brother isn't, and appears to be very durable. However, there are some clearing weakness that are there to be exposed.

1) Head Hunting, I would like to count the number of body punches Klitchsko has landed in his last three fights.

2) Footwork, he has quick hands but he is quite slow footed, the ONE time Williams decided to charge he caught Klitchsko to the head and body. I think someone with good footspeed (coming forward) could worry Klitchsko (as Sanders did). A lumbering fighter like what Williams was is never going to stand a chance.

In light of these weakness there are only two guys I give a remote chance of beating him.

1) Hasim Rahman, I don't give him a major chance but Rahman might be able to outjab Klitchsko (something which I have never seen happen to him). Rahman caught a good Lennox Lewis (in the rematch) on a few occasions with the jab and despite being the smaller man, might be able to beat Klitchsko to the punch.

2) - Sorry guys, but I would give Mike Tyson a chance, Williams said "I need to be like Mike Tyson of old", unfortunately, he was 100% less intense than the 38 year old version. Of 2-3 rounds Tyson is still dangerous and his footspeed and movement (which although dimishing, is still good) might cause the big man problems. I here you say "but Lewis tried and was failing to outfight Klitchsko" however, Lewis isn't a natural fighter. Tyson has fought and beaten big guys all his career fighting.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 12 Dec 2004, 13:18

Danny never got over those first round punches crashing home for 2 minutes plus.
He was really caught cold: due to his fitness and heart, what should have been a first round knock out, turned into a 8 round thrashing.

He was too heavy, but no way was he not fit. I mean, how could you stand up under those punches for 8 rounds without being in shape?

Looking back, he never stood a chance. But strange as it sounds, he did himself no favours by coming in over confident. I think going in, he and Jimmy Mac had really started to believe it would be an easy fight - talking about how Vitali was over-rated, and would run out of gas after 5 rounds....

But when those lefts and rights started landing he suddenly realised he had seriously underrated Vitali, and by then it was too late....

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 12 Dec 2004, 13:20

Stu

you'd still back Tyson to have a chance with Vitali? I wouldn't put a penny on Tyson beating Vitali

he's shot to pieces and would struggle with the European giant from the very first round. If Vitali had a weak chin I'd be confident that Tyson had a chance but Dr ironfist has a good beard that no one can deny now after taking shots from Lewis, Sanders and Williams. The sad thing is I wouldn't be surprised if Tyson fights Vitali, which would be a bigger one sided bashing than last night.

Rahman has a decent chance of making a fight of it but I'd still back Vitali heavily.

No matter how many people bash Vitali and his 'weaknesses' he gets the job done and is a bloody exciting heavyweight and is a good successor to Lennox Lewis for me

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 12 Dec 2004, 13:22

stujones wrote:People now stateside are calling Williams a fraud for beating a washed up Tyson with quotes such as "this proves how washed up Tyson was"..

During the fight I was thinkink that this was the type of comment USA fans and the media would come out with, and it is hard to put up a strong defence for Dannys performance last night.

stujones wrote:As for Klitchsko,

2) Footwork, he has quick hands but he is quite slow footed, the ONE time Williams decided to charge he caught Klitchsko to the head and body. I think someone with good footspeed (coming forward) could worry Klitchsko (as Sanders did). A lumbering fighter like what Williams was is never going to stand a chance.

True, but the guy is so tall and with his wide stance those long legs allow him to get away with it most of the time, buy leaning or simply just stepping back. The guy is so huge he can cross the ring in about four steps!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Dec 2004, 13:31

MightyWarrior wrote:Danny never got over those first round punches crashing home for 2 minutes plus.
He was really caught cold: due to his fitness and heart, what should have been a first round knock out, turned into a 8 round thrashing.

He was too heavy, but no way was he not fit. I mean, how could you stand up under those punches for 8 rounds without being in shape?

Looking back, he never stood a chance. But strange as it sounds, he did himself no favours by coming in over confident. I think going in, he and Jimmy Mac had really started to believe it would be an easy fight - talking about how Vitali was over-rated, and would run out of gas after 5 rounds....

But when those lefts and rights started landing he suddenly realised he had seriously underrated Vitali, and by then it was too late....

I partially agree with this, Danny was certainly fit but was ponderous and slow. I new as soon at the bell rang that the fight was not going to go his way - he was so sloooow to start. Where was the charge, I semi expected Danny to come out running after Klitchsko throwing bomb after bomb, instead we had a Julius Francis impression. Whether he froze or it was the weight I do not know, probably a combination of both. Why didn't he let go a bit.

I do agree the Danny and Jim were underating Vitali loads, I mean he is the Heavyweight champion of the world for fucks sake. I did notice (although never wrote here) that Danny never said "I don't think it will go the distance, BUT I AM PREPARED TO GO THE 12 ROUNDS" - Klitchsko did.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 12 Dec 2004, 14:10

Seems Danny's ok after the MRI scan.

http://www.dannywilliams.tv/dannywillia ... 0&cs=15148

That Mc Pherson reminded me of a general, he has that voice. Man what would you feel if he was your kids are watching. Was most likely the weight that took his speed away from him.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Dec 2004, 14:30

shakermaker wrote:Stu

you'd still back Tyson to have a chance with Vitali? I wouldn't put a penny on Tyson beating Vitali he's shot to pieces and would struggle with the European giant from the very first round. If Vitali had a weak chin I'd be confident that Tyson had a chance but Dr ironfist has a good beard that no one can deny now after taking shots from Lewis, Sanders and Williams. The sad thing is I wouldn't be surprised if Tyson fights Vitali, which would be a bigger one sided bashing than last night.

Rahman has a decent chance of making a fight of it but I'd still back Vitali heavily.

No matter how many people bash Vitali and his 'weaknesses' he gets the job done and is a bloody exciting heavyweight and is a good successor to Lennox Lewis for me

Shakermaker.

I didn't say I would back Tyson, he is the only fighter (aswell as Rahman) who I would stay stood a chance. For me fights with Byrd and Ruiz would be forgone conclusions. Tyson might be aswell, as I said it might sound crazy.

For me the only way you can beat Klitchsko is through speed and even a shot Tyson is still the fastest heavyweight currently fighting on the fringes of the top ten. If you don't think he is, then who is? I think Williams' pre fight strategy of "doing a Tyson" was spot on, but he didn't execute it. Even a master strategist like Lennox Lewis saw that as his best way to dealing with the Russian Giant.

Perhaps I am seeing a different fight to everyone else, but I thought Sanders' style flummuxed Klitcshcko in the opening few rounds. Why? Because he charged him and threw fast punches. Tyson can still do that effectively for 2-3 rounds. Klitchsko's chin might be a factor of course it looks good, but he WAS hurt by Sanders and Lewis and I still think even the 38 year old Tyson hits harder than either of those two. I think Danny was being serious when he said Tyson hits harder than Klitchsko.

I think a fast punching NATURAL fighter (something Lewis and Williams are not, they prefer to box) is the fighter who is most suited to troubling Klitchsko. I still believe Tyson is the best fighter at this type of fight, he still (when fresh) knows how to slip punches and I think would cause Klitchsko more problems than Sanders did - who possibly has cause him the biggest problems of his career to date (including Lennox Lewis). Herbie Hide was electric for the first round when he went for Klitchsko, Tyson could catch him and even with a good chin, one punch MIGHT be all it needs.

Tyson (despite losing) looked the best he had for years vs Williams in the opening 2 rounds, the injury affected him alot.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 12 Dec 2004, 15:09

The Tyson myth lives on. STILL. How the hell would a 5'10 Tyson reach 6'7 Vitali. He would get totally peppered. I can't believe after all that has happened people are still buying into Tyson even having the remotest even punchers chance. Tyson is FINISHED. DONE DONE DONE DONE DONE. He would get manhandled and battered. NO BUTS, IFS OR WHATEVER. HE IS FINISHED.

Also. Tyson hit harder than Lewis? Tyson punch for punch never hit harder than Lewis imo. For single shot power Lennox's right hand is bigger than any Tyson punch imo. I think Lewis's record backs this up.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Dec 2004, 15:19

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:The Tyson myth lives on. STILL.

Possibly, but one man the guy hasn't hurt in the opening 3 rounds in the last 10 years, one man. Thats still not bad for a fighter who is done done done.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 12 Dec 2004, 15:23

If old Tyson ever stood side by side with Vitali you would soon relize that Tyson has no chance. McDonnell commented that even in sparring Tyson only does half rounds at a times. He would get totally manhandled.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Dec 2004, 15:34

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:If old Tyson ever stood side by side with Vitali you would soon relize that Tyson has no chance. McDonnell commented that even in sparring Tyson only does half rounds at a times. He would get totally manhandled.

Yes, I'm not saying Tyson isn't faded or shot. However, Tyson is the one fighter (barring Byrd - who was getting beaten up before the injury) who is "used" to being the smaller man. Lewis and Williams are both normal the bigger man and this effected them. Golota and Saverese are big men, he handle them well. Klitchsko is alot better than both but I would still say there is a big difference between Klitschsko and the Lewis that destroyed Tyson.

Tyson wouldn't be able to intimidate Klitschsko, but I don't think he would be intimidated himself. I could see him giving it a bash ala Sanders, and I think at 38 he is better all round (in pretty much every department) than the 38 year old Sanders.

I think the fight would be interesting, I cannot see Ruiz, Byrd or Brewester being interesting.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 12 Dec 2004, 15:39

Max Molyneux wrote:Seems Danny's ok after the MRI scan.

http://www.dannywilliams.tv/dannywillia ... 0&cs=15148

That Mc Pherson reminded me of a general, he has that voice. Man what would you feel if he was your kids are watching. Was most likely the weight that took his speed away from him.

I remember McPhearson featuring in something like Ring magazine's prospects to watch out for, back in the early 80's ( yes, showing my age! ). His name stuck with me for some reason.

Just checked his record, to find out what happened - he ran into Robin Blake, the excellent lightweight of the mid-80's.

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=088877

Wasn't he working for King at one time?

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 12 Dec 2004, 16:08

Stu

good post and I hope some heavyweight appears on the radar that might trouble Vitali.

You've mentioned Tyson and Rahamn but how about James Toney? His speed and boxing ability might actually trouble the bigger man and I know he's been mouthing off about Vitali for a good while now..........so HBO might make it next year.

Still not sure if ONE punch could ko Vitali. Just my gut feeling. Tyson would have to catch him cold and just go crazy and if they ever did meet I'm sure Vitali would have a strategy to ensure the smaller man never got inside in those first 2/3 rounds when Mike is still clearly dangerous.

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 12 Dec 2004, 16:08

Stu

good post and I hope some heavyweight appears on the radar that might trouble Vitali.

You've mentioned Tyson and Rahamn but how about James Toney? His speed and boxing ability might actually trouble the bigger man and I know he's been mouthing off about Vitali for a good while now..........so HBO might make it next year.

Still not sure if ONE punch could ko Vitali. Just my gut feeling. Tyson would have to catch him cold and just go crazy and if they ever did meet I'm sure Vitali would have a strategy to ensure the smaller man never got inside in those first 2/3 rounds when Mike is still clearly dangerous.

shakermaker · Post by **shakermaker** » 12 Dec 2004, 16:10

Stu

good post and I hope some heavyweight appears on the radar that might trouble Vitali.

You've mentioned Tyson and Rahamn but how about James Toney? His speed and boxing ability might actually trouble the bigger man and I know he's been mouthing off about Vitali for a good while now..........so HBO might make it next year.

Still not sure if ONE punch could ko Vitali. Just my gut feeling. Tyson would have to catch him cold and just go crazy and if they ever did meet I'm sure Vitali would have a strategy to ensure the smaller man never got inside in those first 2/3 rounds when Mike is still clearly dangerous.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 12 Dec 2004, 16:14

shakermaker wrote:Stu

good post and I hope some heavyweight appears on the radar that might trouble Vitali.

You've mentioned Tyson and Rahamn but how about James Toney? His speed and boxing ability might actually trouble the bigger man and I know he's been mouthing off about Vitali for a good while now..........so HBO might make it next year.

Still not sure if ONE punch could ko Vitali. Just my gut feeling. Tyson would have to catch him cold and just go crazy and if they ever did meet I'm sure Vitali would have a strategy to ensure the smaller man never got inside in those first 2/3 rounds when Mike is still clearly dangerous.

Possibly Toney, just unproven and given that Larry Donald almost beat Holyfield as convincingly that win holds very little significance.

I would have liked to have seen Toney vs McCline before making a judgment about his chances at heavyweight.

E · Post by E » 12 Dec 2004, 18:18

shakermaker wrote:Stu

good post and I hope some heavyweight appears on the radar that might trouble Vitali.

You've mentioned Tyson and Rahamn but how about James Toney? His speed and boxing ability might actually trouble the bigger man and I know he's been mouthing off about Vitali for a good while now..........so HBO might make it next year.

Still not sure if ONE punch could ko Vitali. Just my gut feeling. Tyson would have to catch him cold and just go crazy and if they ever did meet I'm sure Vitali would have a strategy to ensure the smaller man never got inside in those first 2/3 rounds when Mike is still clearly dangerous.

Don't be ridiculous - Toney would get smasjhed to pieces by Vitali as would Tyson.....both far too small...

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 13 Dec 2004, 10:27

Cannibal wrote:I think Johnny Nelson summed it up nicely. "It was like a 7 year old trying to box his older father"

What meaning that some 7 year olds have fathers younger than them?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Dec 2004, 10:31

I don't see how Toney could hurt Vitali, if he took that long to break down Jirov and Booker, how on god's earth is he going to stop Vitali just hammering him relentlessly.

I'd still like to see him try.

lirva33 · Post by **lirva33** » 13 Dec 2004, 10:35

jamesmcdonnell wrote:I don't see how Toney could hurt Vitali, if he took that long to break down Jirov and Booker, how on god's earth is he going to stop Vitali just hammering him relentlessly.

I'd still like to see him try.

he's perfected the whole shoulder roll defence and Vitali is quite predictable in his attack. i.e 1-2, 1-2, 1-2, 1-2 from a different angle, another 1-2.

If he could make Vitali miss for 7-8 rounds and then up the pace, he has a chance.

He's too small though... unfortunately.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 13 Dec 2004, 10:37

Vitali threw a lot of hooks against Williams, and they weren't too badly turned in, some of them were tight angled ones from in close, he also used the uppercut from the outside to good effect, something which he could do as much as he liked agaist Toney without fear of being countered.

knockout artist · Post by **knockout artist** » 13 Dec 2004, 10:39

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Vitali threw a lot of hooks against Williams, and they weren't too badly turned in, some of them were tight angled ones from in close, he also used the uppercut from the outside to good effect, something which he could do as much as he liked agaist Toney without fear of being countered.

Much as I like Toney, Vitali is just too big. And remember Toney is fairly stationery.

Its a terrible fight for him.

BubiScholz · Post by **BubiScholz** » 13 Dec 2004, 10:49

E wrote:
shakermaker wrote:Stu

good post and I hope some heavyweight appears on the radar that might trouble Vitali.

You've mentioned Tyson and Rahamn but how about James Toney? His speed and boxing ability might actually trouble the bigger man and I know he's been mouthing off about Vitali for a good while now..........so HBO might make it next year.

Still not sure if ONE punch could ko Vitali. Just my gut feeling. Tyson would have to catch him cold and just go crazy and if they ever did meet I'm sure Vitali would have a strategy to ensure the smaller man never got inside in those first 2/3 rounds when Mike is still clearly dangerous.

Don't be ridiculous - Toney would get smasjhed to pieces by Vitali as would Tyson.....both far too small...

Tyson is no serious opponent as well as Toney. I only see problems vs. Samil Sam who made him trouble in Sparring in former times and vs. Valuev who is taller.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 13 Dec 2004, 11:24

Toney has three times as much ability as Vitali and Wladimir combined, whether he's big enough remains to be seen.