Vitali vs the rest

[The Great John L]

So, we’ve had a few Vitali love/hate matchup threads, but let’s try another one. Granted, I can’t see him getting by the top ATG HW’s, but how would he have faired against the second rung HW champs from the past over 15 rds?

For example:

Willard
Sharkey
Schmeling
Baer
Braddock
Carnera
Walcott
Patterson
Ingo
Terrel (not really a champ, but seems like an interesting matchup)
Ellis

I’ll leave out the guys with “titles” post 1980.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

So, we’ve had a few Vitali love/hate matchup threads, but let’s try another one. Granted, I can’t see him getting by the top ATG HW’s, but how would he have faired against the second rung HW champs from the past?

For example:

Willard
Sharkey
Schmeling
Baer
Braddock
Carnera
Walcott
Patterson
Ingo
Terrel (not really a champ, but seems like an interesting matchup)
Ellis

- Don't know why Terrell shouldn't be every bit the champ. He won the stripped title of Ali because of the disgraced Liston rematch. The rematch combined with the first fight sent folks flocking elsewhere and the stink still hangs heavy decades later. If you think about it, had young untested Clay faced Terrell instead of Liston or Patterson, Terrell might well have outboxed him. Ali was fortunate to have a soft diet as he developed his reign, so was much more mature when he did face Terrell.

As to Vitali, you made a mistake. He walks all down in a beatdown. Maybe Carnera who was a better boxer than credited and could get very physical with him if he thinks the ref will allow it could give a tussle. Vitali would beat 75% of anybody's top 10 guaranteed and win half of the remainder. The only one I'd pick over him hands down is prime Tyson who's speed and movement specialized in darting inside big reaches to explode upclose bombs. Next Dempsey, and then prime Ali have decent chances, nothing I'd bet on, but not the comeback Ali. They're gonna walk through hell to beat him though.

[dempseyfire]

I think it's important whether these bouts are 12 or 15 rounds.

For 15,

He loses to Sharkey, Walcott, Baer, and Terrell

I'm shaky on Ellis and Schmeling, two under-rated fighters who none the less would face some big style issues here. Ellis the quicker mover might have the better shot although Max is the greater fighter.

Willard over 15 would be a war. Vitali more polished but Willard the harder one-shot puncher and superior in stamina/durability.

Vitali beats Braddock, Carnera, Ingo.

[The Great John L]

I think it's important whether these bouts are 12 or 15 rounds.

Yes indeed. I edited the original post to say 15 rds.

[Robinson]

I think it's important whether these bouts are 12 or 15 rounds.

For 15,

He loses to Sharkey, Walcott, Baer, and Terrell

I'm shaky on Ellis and Schmeling, two under-rated fighters who none the less would face some big style issues here. Ellis the quicker mover might have the better shot although Max is the greater fighter.

Willard over 15 would be a war. Vitali more polished but Willard the harder one-shot puncher and superior in stamina/durability.

Vitali beats Braddock, Carnera, Ingo.

Please be quiet now.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Hard to pick any of these guys over Vitali. No question that Walcott was a far greater fighter, but styles wise it does him no favors.

Just too big and he knows how to fight tall. Not to mention many of these guys like patterson & ellis had chin issues. The guys that match up in size, Primo & Jess, and way outclassed.

[dempseyfire]

Wow . . look . . . it's Vitali back in 1919!

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/2002-8/Archive-Films

Both fairly goofy but at least Willard knew how to properly block hooks instead of leaning straight back anytime he saw incoming fire. Vitali more fluid with better movement but to suggest Willard 'isn't in his class' is to ignore reality. Willard and Vitali are actually more similar in fighting style than Vitali is to his brother.

EVeryone picks Vitali due to his size but he had no cakewalk vs a powder puff natural light heavyweight in Chris Byrd and the likes of Ellis, Walcott, Schmeling, Sharkey etc. are much more dangerous and complete opponents than 20 punches a round Chris. Vitali has had a blast feasting on obese plodders but in vs guys in shape and with skills he's in a new ballgame.

I know guys who are sparring partners with Vitali and the guy is very strong and a tough fighter to beat but he's not Mr. Unbreakable. He has been knocked down in sparring and guys with speed do trouble him. Hell, Corrie Sanders, whose nothing more than a southpaw Ingo but in much worse condition, had Vitali going early before he completly gassed out by the middle of the 2nd round.

He dominated Chris Arreola??? Arreola vs most of the fighters above would've been out of there EARLIER than he was vs Klitschko. He is garbage.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

There is no doubt that Vitali has no wins of note in his entire career. But he does treat garbage as such. If one of these guys gets him in a war of attrition, his body will probably break down. Just hard to take a 180lb Ellis with chin issues over a giant who does have skills and fights tall.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Wow . . look . . . it's Vitali back in 1919!

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/2002-8/Archive-Films

Both fairly goofy but at least Willard knew how to properly block hooks instead of leaning straight back anytime he saw incoming fire. Vitali more fluid with better movement but to suggest Willard 'isn't in his class' is to ignore reality. Willard and Vitali are actually more similar in fighting style than Vitali is to his brother.

EVeryone picks Vitali due to his size but he had no cakewalk vs a powder puff natural light heavyweight in Chris Byrd and the likes of Ellis, Walcott, Schmeling, Sharkey etc. are much more dangerous and complete opponents than 20 punches a round Chris. Vitali has had a blast feasting on obese plodders but in vs guys in shape and with skills he's in a new ballgame.

I know guys who are sparring partners with Vitali and the guy is very strong and a tough fighter to beat but he's not Mr. Unbreakable. He has been knocked down in sparring and guys with speed do trouble him. Hell, Corrie Sanders, whose nothing more than a southpaw Ingo but in much worse condition, had Vitali going early before he completly gassed out by the middle of the 2nd round.

He dominated Chris Arreola??? Arreola vs most of the fighters above would've been out of there EARLIER than he was vs Klitschko. He is garbage.

- Brilliant, you pick the Dempsey fight where Willard was demolished in the opening stanza by a big left hook. You really are the forum posterboy for cluelessness.

Byrd was 10x more elusive than any of the fighters you named down to his footwork and being southpaw. Lewis would want to fight them instead of ducking Byrd whom Vitali did fight. No smallish cruiser sized fighters save a Dempsey is gonna present a "danger" to Vitali. That southpaw Ingo also had Lewis who was nobody's dummy ducking him.

How are the fighters you mentioned gonna have Arreola out earlier than Vitali when they ain't noted punchers? Are they gonna land 350 harder punches on him?

Your positions ain't just poor, they're plain goofy novice quality. All you got going for you is a dusty golden past long gone and you do a poor job doing it justice to boot.

[dempseyfire]

How is Sanders ducked when he loses an elimination match with Rahman?

Byrd's footwork? You mean standing still in the corner and taking shots?

Schmeling not a noted puncher? Walcott and Baer small punchers? Arreola would fall sooner b/c he would be in vs guys who actually torqued their body into shots and got inside to throw hooks properly (see the Walker fight, and Walker is a novice amateur compared to the true champions here). Not like chasing around a 250 lb man throwing arm punches until they get stopped on their feet.

You better get your last joys of me responding and shooting your feable trollish arguments down, b/c I've begun to ignore you and soon your trollish replies to my posts will be met with crickets chirping.

[Grimm]

I'd say Walcott has the best chance.

[Ezzard]

The guys with the best chance are Willard, Sharkey, Schmeling and Walcott. Vitali would beat the others fairly easily.

[jezzamundo]

Very interesting matchups. You can argue that Vitali beats all of these guys, and he certainly has a good chance against all of them.

I feel that Vitali would definitely beat Braddock, Carnera, Ellis and Johansson.

Otherwise I feel that all of the remaining fights could go either way. I tend to lean to Vitali in all of them, but would not be surprised if any of them beat him, particularly on points.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

How is Sanders ducked when he loses an elimination match with Rahman?

- How is you got lost in the vapours of your self emissions in a distant golden past era?

Rahman/Sanders was for Sanders WBU title. Rahman had recently been KOed by Tua and Maskaev going into the Lewis bout in Africa, another little dig by Lewis at Sanders, coming to his home to fight an easier, more predictable opponent.

[The Great John L]

My take on these:

Willard actually presents some problems, as actually wasn’t a bad fighter and had size and KO power. However, I think VK takes a pretty one sided decision.

Sharkey. I’m not a huge Sharkey fan, but I’ll give him a slight edge here, despite the huge size difference. Sharkey could be a tough small target and was a very good inside fighter. Sharkey by close dec.

Schmeling. Max was an excellent boxer in many respects, but his stand up style would have made getting to VK pretty difficult. I’d say that VK controls most of the fight and stops Max late, probably a TKO with Max still on his feet.

Baer. Baer was not a skilled fighter, so this is a tough one for him. VK by wide decision, although I could see Baer pulling it out landing a quick right hand. While Baer wasn't particularly skilled, he did have deceptively quick hands on the ocassions when he threw straight punches. On the whole though, this is Vitali's fight.

Braddock. Vitali by mid rounds stoppage after a pretty one sided fight.

Carnera. Close, boring jabbing contest. Vitali drops Carnera a few times late and pulls out a UD.

Walcott. Walcott was inconsistent, but he was also slick as snail shiit. Walcott struggles early but figures out the right moves by mid fight and takes a close decision.

Patterson. VK by mid rounds stoppage after Floyd goes down a few times.

Ingo. They both fight very cautious early before Vitali takes over with his jab/slap style. Ingo is busted up and dropped mid rounds and VKL wins by 9th round TKO.

Terrel. Both fight similar styles, Terrell a little quicker but Vitali bigger and harder punching. Lots of jabbing and clinching in a snoozer. Draw.

Ellis. Ellis does well early but slows down by the 6th. Vitali starts to land consistently mid fight and is able to bust up Ellis’s face enroute to a late rounds stoppage.

[Mr E]

Reasonable minds can differ as to all of these. My takes, admitedly offered without a tremendous amount of conviction, are as follows:

W15 over Willard -- fight much closer than expected; Willard, outhustled at the start, finds a rhythm and comes on over the last 5 rounds. Neither man is ever in serious trouble.

L15 to Sharkey -- Sharkey stays cool, shows Klitschko a number of different looks -- boxing sometimes, crowding other times -- keeps him off balance and wins the nod, though not without some rough moments.

L15 to Schmeling -- Max is hurt several times early, maybe goes down once, but rings Klitschko's bell once or twice himself; dominates last 5 as Klitschko tires.

W15 over Baer -- Klitschko busier and more accurate with the jab; that's the difference.

TKO 11 over Braddock -- Braddock similar to Schmeling in many respects but a little easier to hit, not quite as much power -- Klitschko is able to do more damage early and Braddock, though game to the core, never really gets going.

TKO 10 over Carnera -- Good fight while it lasts, Primo brave but takes too many shots.

L15 to Walcott -- Jersey Joe just too slick.

TKO 7 over Patterson -- Klitschko jumps on him and stays on him.

TKO 12 over Johansson -- Ingo's right gets Klitschko's attention and backs him off early but ultimately Klitschko proves too big and strong.

W15 over Terrell -- Mr. jab-and-clutch is overmatched; he does enough to last but not to win.

KO 8 over Ellis -- Ellis starts hot and takes the lead but fades badly and collapses under the pressure. Simply not durable enough to overcome Klitschko's advantages in size and strength.

[dempseyfire]

My take on these:

Willard actually presents some problems, as actually wasn’t a bad fighter and had size and KO power. However, I think VK takes a pretty one sided decision.

Sharkey. I’m not a huge Sharkey fan, but I’ll give him a slight edge here, despite the huge size difference. Sharkey could be a tough small target and was a very good inside fighter. Sharkey by close dec.

Schmeling. Max was an excellent boxer in many respects, but his stand up style would have made getting to VK pretty difficult. I’d say that VK controls most of the fight and stops Max late, probably a TKO with Max still on his feet.

Baer. Baer was not a skilled fihter, so this is a tough one for him. VK by wide decision.

Braddock. Vitali by mid rounds stoppage after a pretty one sided fight.

Carnera. Close, boring jabbing contest. Vitali drops Carnera a few times late and pulls out a UD.

Walcott. Walcott was inconsistent, but he was also slick as snail shiit. Walcott struggles early but figures out the right moves by mid fight and takes a close decision.

Patterson. VK by mid rounds stoppage after Floyd goes down a few times.

Ingo. They both fight very cautious early before Vitali takes over with his jab/slap style. Ingo is busted up and dropped mid rounds and VKL wins by 9th round TKO.

Terrel. Both fight similar styles, Terrell a little quicker but Vitali bigger and harder punching. Lots of jabbing and clinching in a snoozer. Draw.

Ellis. Ellis does well early but slows down by the 6th. Vitali starts to land consistently mid fight and is able to bust up Ellis’s face enroute to a late rounds stoppage.

Upon reflection, I think the patient, counter-punching Schmeling of the latter half of his career loses to Vitali, but I think the Max of 1929-1932 who fought in a much more aggresive, Dempsey-like fashion using head movement along with countering can beat Vitali going in and out and outspeeding the giant.

Terrell to me is an under-rated fighter. Great stamina, jab, and under-rated overall boxing ability (he could put some nice combos together to the head and body) Also pretty durable. Neither Klitschko, who both rely on the left jab to set up everything, have faced a guy who could jab like Terrell did. I think Terrell would bust up Vitali pretty good as the fight progressed.

I think Ellis loses a decision in which he gets dropped once or twice. Jimmy was a great boxer but he'd be at a big strength disadvantage and he had a tendency to trade and let his cajones get in the way of a sound gameplan at times.