Warren cracks ABA - Khan to appear on Calzaghe bill

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:13

tonyevs wrote:I do not understand how somebody can receive £70k a year tax free also, and still be classed as an amateur.

it is a farce but its levelled off the playing field I guess....
The cubans and soviets for years were essentially pros....

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:14

Kit wrote:I am all in favour of amateurs on pro shows, we may actually get to see some competitive fights!

Seeing two top amateurs coming to win battling out on a big stage will surely outshine most of the fights on the current uncompetitive professional bills.

It's got to the point where everyone knows the 10 winners will come from the same corner before the "action" begins.

Not a big fan of the head guards or computer scoring mind you, but at least these lads will both be fired up an evenly matched!

EXcuse my ignorance, but are ALL amateur bouts scored using computersied button based systems, or is it only major competitions.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:15

only majors

the technology would be too expensive for most local amateur clubs to afford I would imagine... and no better than 3 neutral judges IMO

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:17

Right, that's as I thought, internationals only.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:18

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Right, that's as I thought, internationals only.

can still be manipulated of course....

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:19

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Kit wrote:I am all in favour of amateurs on pro shows, we may actually get to see some competitive fights!

Seeing two top amateurs coming to win battling out on a big stage will surely outshine most of the fights on the current uncompetitive professional bills.

It's got to the point where everyone knows the 10 winners will come from the same corner before the "action" begins.

Not a big fan of the head guards or computer scoring mind you, but at least these lads will both be fired up an evenly matched!
EXcuse my ignorance, but are ALL amateur bouts scored using computersied button based systems, or is it only major competitions.

There is different versions of the scoringsystem (at local cards and some international cards). At some cards you still have the 5 judges system (they had to use it during the last euroes when the computers crashed). You can also get a mix of the two systems, where each judge use the computersystem to keep track of his score and then after the fight the fighters that each judge has winning gets one point, ie you can win 5-0 4-1 and 3-2 like in the old days. That system was used in some national teams matches between Denmark and Romania last year.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:32

That last system sounds interesting.

The thing I hate about computerised scoring, is that if a fighter has fast hands and lands combinations, they are unlikely to be get scored fairly, whereas single clean shots are easy to score.

jeej · Post by **jeej** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:38

tonyevs wrote:I do not understand how somebody can receive £70k a year tax free also, and still be classed as an amateur.

I guess it's the rules they fight by that class them as amateurs. If you were classed as a professional but not getting paid, now that would be odd!

Kit · Post by **Kit** » 16 Dec 2004, 13:59

Computers are usually used only in major national championships and internationls.
The best system I've seen is the calculator system where the five judges all have a hand held key pad. They push the red or blue button when a scoring shot lands. All 5 judges score the fight seperately.
None of this need for three 70 year old judges having to push a button within a second of each other for a blow to register.
I saw a novice championship recently where this system was in process and see very few complaints from the crowd or participants. Hpefully this system will replace the current system.

ABA Boxing · Post by **ABA Boxing** » 16 Dec 2004, 14:21

Most shows use calculator scoring now, you would probaly only find the paper score cards if the Official in charge forgot to bring them or they have flat Batteries.

As Far as Amir Khan goes with the money it seems out of proportion compared to other Amateurs. Only yesterday Scottish Amateur boxing was given just short of £100 thousand, thats the whole of Scotland not just one lad

Great if they put Amateurs on Pro shows, but the clubs that provide the boxers need to get the money, not the ABA. So they can invest in there own clubs not let the bunch of fools do it!

The ABA are gambling alot on one lad, i think it so unfair on the other England lads. Hardly anyone knows the results of the bouts against the US all they know is Amirs bout.

We are losing alot of good Amateurs to the pro game, yet the ABA seem intersted in only tring to keep Amir as Amateur, forgeting the rest of the talent. All on the chance he might get Gold and the next olympics which is 4 years away. Such a big gamble to lose other great boxers like David Price, David Dolan and the Langley brothers who i dont think will wait around as it will be in there interest to take Pro contracts.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 16 Dec 2004, 14:27

jamesmcdonnell wrote:The thing I hate about computerised scoring, is that if a fighter has fast hands and lands combinations, they are unlikely to be get scored fairly, whereas single clean shots are easy to score.

I remember reading an interview with Ray Leonard who said the same thing. He went on to say if the computer system was used when he was at the Olympics in 1976 he felt that he would have struggled to win Gold due to his fast hands and fast combinations.

I take his point but I assume that in reality Leonard would just have adjusted his style accordingly.

ABA Boxing · Post by **ABA Boxing** » 16 Dec 2004, 14:28

Many a boxer will win a bout by throwing no more than a Jab the entire 4 rounds!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Dec 2004, 15:43

I read somewhere that Leonard may have gone on to win the Gold in 1972 - aged 16, but some stipulation (can't remember if it was injury or something) prevented him from competing.

Really goes to show what a talent he was, what an amateur.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 16 Dec 2004, 15:49

stujones wrote:I read somewhere that Leonard may have gone on to win the Gold in 1972 - aged 16, but some stipulation (can't remember if it was injury or something) prevented him from competing.

Really goes to show what a talent he was, what an amateur.

I thought he lost in the USA Box-Offs, but now you mention his age I am starting to doubt myself.

bigped · Post by **bigped** » 16 Dec 2004, 16:14

ABA Boxing wrote:Most shows use calculator scoring now, you would probaly only find the paper score cards if the Official in charge forgot to bring them or they have flat Batteries.

As Far as Amir Khan goes with the money it seems out of proportion compared to other Amateurs. Only yesterday Scottish Amateur boxing was given just short of £100 thousand, thats the whole of Scotland not just one lad

Great if they put Amateurs on Pro shows, but the clubs that provide the boxers need to get the money, not the ABA. So they can invest in there own clubs not let the bunch of fools do it!

The ABA are gambling alot on one lad, i think it so unfair on the other England lads. Hardly anyone knows the results of the bouts against the US all they know is Amirs bout.

We are losing alot of good Amateurs to the pro game, yet the ABA seem intersted in only tring to keep Amir as Amateur, forgeting the rest of the talent. All on the chance he might get Gold and the next olympics which is 4 years away. Such a big gamble to lose other great boxers like David Price, David Dolan and the Langley brothers who i dont think will wait around as it will be in there interest to take Pro contracts.

Its a joke khan is getting 70k a year ,,

SportScotland Backs Scottish Amateur Boxing To The Tune Of £100,000
SportScotland, the agency responsible for the development of sport in Scotland, has announced funding of £99,683.48 for amateur boxing in Scotland.

Boxers who will directly benefit are Mark Hastie, Craig McEwan, Kenneth Anderson, Usmaan Hussain, Ian McCabe, Ian Millarvie, Mitch Prince, Michael Warner, Stephen Simmons, James Ancliff, Gary McArthur, Kevin Green, Fundo Mhura, Daryll Campbell and James Toal.

thats 100 grand for all of those guys. Mark hastie currently scottish.westernt and four nation senior champion so on paper you could argue he is the best light weight in the country, took the best england/irleand and wales had last year why hes only getting peanuts/ craig mcewan?? most talanted amature in britain around 400 fights under his belt now the 22 year old commonwealth games medalist is the real thing. dont get me wrong think amir is great but he will get beat i think in the nxt 6 months he aint invincible and shouldnt be on this kinda of money.

Ulysses · Post by **Ulysses** » 16 Dec 2004, 18:57

ABA Boxing wrote:Such a big gamble to lose other great boxers like David Price, David Dolan and the Langley brothers who i dont think will wait around as it will be in there interest to take Pro contracts.

Shouldn't that read: "Such a big gamble to lose other boxers like David Price, David Dolan and the Langley brothers who i dont think will wait around as it will be in there interest to take Pro contracts."

Re: the amateur puncher who's power didn't translate to the pros, Bermondey's own Matthew Thirlwall springs to mind. However, the kid Khan is special. For a 17-year-old boy to qualify through a tough European tournament is a massive achievement in itself, then claim an Olympic silver medal losing to a living legend in Mario Kindelan and even win a round against the great man... this is all the criteria for a special, special fighter.

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 16 Dec 2004, 20:22

How long will the ABA pay Khan this amount of money?
And will this mean they will have to pay the other top internationals the same?

If I was asked to represent my country I too would want what was being offered to my team mates, isn`t that fair?

This could work out very expensive if they had to pay this amount to the top fella in each division.
And all this after 1, Admittedly very good season.

ABA Boxing · Post by **ABA Boxing** » 16 Dec 2004, 21:41

tonyevs wrote:How long will the ABA pay Khan this amount of money?
And will this mean they will have to pay the other top internationals the same?

If I was asked to represent my country I too would want what was being offered to my team mates, isn`t that fair?

This could work out very expensive if they had to pay this amount to the top fella in each division.
And all this after 1, Admittedly very good season.

They wont be able to and will lose all the other good boxers to the Pro's, The hell i would box as Heavyweight for nothing while a welterweight gets paid that kind of money. Theres a good chance the other England team boxers do better in national competions than Khan does.

Khan could come a cropper a row of defeats or a long term injury, the rest of the top Boxers have quit and gone Pro, England then has a big gap to catch up, the pros get old, UK boxing falls even further

Chris W 1982 · Post by **Chris W 1982** » 17 Dec 2004, 06:34

allegedly is not bothered about amatuer boxing, he's only interseted inb getting Khan's signature when he decides to turn pro. If he was interested in other amatuers then this deal would have been agreed a long time ago.

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 17 Dec 2004, 06:37

Ulysses wrote:
ABA Boxing wrote:Such a big gamble to lose other great boxers like David Price, David Dolan and the Langley brothers who i dont think will wait around as it will be in there interest to take Pro contracts.
Shouldn't that read: "Such a big gamble to lose other boxers like David Price, David Dolan and the Langley brothers who i dont think will wait around as it will be in there interest to take Pro contracts."

Re: the amateur puncher who's power didn't translate to the pros, Bermondey's own Matthew Thirlwall springs to mind. However, the kid Khan is special. For a 17-year-old boy to qualify through a tough European tournament is a massive achievement in itself, then claim an Olympic silver medal losing to a living legend in Mario Kindelan and even win a round against the great man... this is all the criteria for a special, special fighter.

All this got me into thinking (no kidding

) A good press coverage in the country/international can really hype up good young amateurs. I havent seen anything about Yalcinkaya who also won silver in athens and was even younger than Khan. But it is probably a culture think.

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Dec 2004, 07:02

Freiheit wrote: All this got me into thinking (no kidding ) A good press coverage in the country/international can really hype up good young amateurs. I havent seen anything about Yalcinkaya who also won silver in athens and was even younger than Khan. But it is probably a culture think.

Turkey has done fairly well in amateur boxing over the last ten years so another medal doesnt really mean a great deal....

GB have only won 4 medals in about the last 8 games and certainly never from a 17 year old in modern times....

It bodes well though Richie Woodhall, Robin Reid both went on to become genuine world champions...

The british press are notorious for hyping people up ..... and then shooting them down when the fancy it

knockout · Post by **knockout** » 17 Dec 2004, 07:04

Ulysses wrote:
Re: the amateur puncher who's power didn't translate to the pros, Bermondey's own Matthew Thirlwall springs to mind.

To be fair Thirwall was only a puncher at divisional/national level.... at international level he wasnt a puncher...... Khan seems to carry his punch up to the highest level

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 17 Dec 2004, 07:28

knockout wrote:
Ulysses wrote:
Re: the amateur puncher who's power didn't translate to the pros, Bermondey's own Matthew Thirlwall springs to mind.
To be fair Thirwall was only a puncher at divisional/national level.... at international level he wasnt a puncher...... Khan seems to carry his punch up to the highest level

On a oposite way around Thomas Hearns had 155 amatuer bouts winning 147, with only 11 KNOCKOUTS.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 17 Dec 2004, 07:45

tonyevs wrote:How long will the ABA pay Khan this amount of money?
And will this mean they will have to pay the other top internationals the same?

If I was asked to represent my country I too would want what was being offered to my team mates, isn`t that fair?

This could work out very expensive if they had to pay this amount to the top fella in each division.
And all this after 1, Admittedly very good season.

Perhaps they could insitute a bursary for medal winners. I think this is going to open the floodgates

Something that was very interesting, was in the Independent, Steve Bunce said that the amateurs on the pro-am shows, would fight 4x3 minute rounds.

This makes perfect sense to me, it doesn't make sense to me that amateurs fight 2 minute rounds, and it is going to seem strange to the public. It makes it more seamless

The compulsory use of headguards began a long and gradual separation of the amateur and professional codes, which has gotten to the point where the amateur sport just doesn't resemble the professional sport at all.

I mean the 4x100 meters is the same race in amateur or professional terms, you don't run 4x 75m do you?

The ultimate merger of the two codes and co-operation can only be a good thing, there will be problems which need to be worked through, but this shake up is long needed, and seems to be being welcomed by a lot of people who are involved in the amateur sport.

I am sure there are those who would rather things stayed unchanged, but I think the 'corinthian spirit' belongs to yesterday, and I also think that the inclusion of the amateur code alongside the professionals, could result in one of two things....

1 There will be a call for amateur matchups of the brightest and best
as there is in the the professional code.

2 The regularity of matchups in tournament structures of the amateur code
will make calls for more rigorous scheduling of fights between the best in professional boxing, perhaps I am dreaming here?

I am beginning to think that this could be one of the best things that's happened to boxing, of course, if it all just ends up with Khan being signed, and then no further interest from Sports Network, then it won't have achieved much.

I think this is a real opportunity to increase interest in boxing in this country.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 17 Dec 2004, 09:00

The quiet man 2004 wrote:allegedly is not bothered about amatuer boxing, he's only interseted inb getting Khan's signature when he decides to turn pro. If he was interested in other amatuers then this deal would have been agreed a long time ago.

I think you are correct.

Re the 70k a year for Khan - yes, it does seem a bit unfair on the surface and might be in truth. But I honestly think that, especially if the BBC get behind him, he could single-handedly drag the fight game out of the doldrums.

It's not just the talent but the race issue, his personality, etc. Right on aspiring upper middle-class BBC executives will have been very excited that the lad is a British Asian. Fills in a lot of tickboxes.