Why wasnt Duran D'Q against Buchanan

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 17 Dec 2004, 10:09

Has anyone seen this fight, at the end of the 13th duran hit Ken Buchanan low blow and he went down. then the ref stopped the fight he didnt even ask Ken Buchanan if he wanted to continue.

states · Post by **states** » 17 Dec 2004, 10:15

You weren't watching KOTV Classics last night, by any chance, were you?

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 17 Dec 2004, 10:19

no just wathcing some fights in my collection.

states · Post by **states** » 17 Dec 2004, 10:21

Ah. Because it was on last night, and I wondered the same thing myself. Strange ending.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Dec 2004, 12:34

On the bell to end the 13th, Buchanan tried a sneaky right and Duran lashed back with an equally sneaky right uppercut south of the border. Buchanan, of course, went down in a heap and referee Johnny LoBianco, who didn't see the low shot, allowed Buchanan's team to drag him back to his corner and work on him during the minute's interval. The Scot had the chance to come out for the 14th round, but stayed on his stool.
Buchanan has claimed ever since he was coming on to win - but the claim is hollow. He had not won more than three rounds on any of the scorecards and had been outpunched throughout. Duran floored him with the very first punch he threw!
As for the foul itself, Buchanan played dirty and got it right back with interest. Welcome to the world of Roberto Duran.

REAL_DEAL · Post by **REAL_DEAL** » 17 Dec 2004, 12:49

Buchanan also hit duran and he fell into the ropes keeping him up from a knock down in the first but it wasnt counted, i think the ref was duran brother or something like that.

daniel son · Post by **daniel son** » 17 Dec 2004, 12:53

Buchanan was well behind but the almost constant use of the head by Duran should have been picked up by the ref.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 17 Dec 2004, 12:54

bennie wrote: The Scot had the chance to come out for the 14th round, but stayed on his stool.

Buchanan got off his stool to begin the 14th but the ref had stopped the fight claiming that Buchanan was in no fit state to continue. I can remember talking to Kenny about this and he says that after the fight there was a dent in his cup where Duran had landed the blow. He also claims his nuggets were swollen for a considerable time afterwards!

I dont think he was winning the fight to be honest, but he was certaily stopped on a low blow.

To say that he stayed on his stool is quite simply wrong. the tape i have of the fight is the american coverage and at the end of the fight theres an interview with LoBianco, interviewed in the ring, where he is asked what happened. LoBianco states quite clearly that he stopped the fight as Buchanan "was in no state to continue". You can see quite clearly at the beginning of the 14th when the ref goes to Buchanans corner to check on him that Kenny is saying "Im alright, I'm alright" just as LoBianco turns and waves the fight off.

LoBianco also states in the same interview that Durans was a legitimate punch which hurt Buchanan as there was no way he could be hurt so much from a low blow due to the fact Buchanan was wearing a protector.

There was a photo emerged a year or two back taken just a few feet away that shoes the punch landing. Fair brings a tear to the eyes!!

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Dec 2004, 13:34

neil r wrote:
bennie wrote: The Scot had the chance to come out for the 14th round, but stayed on his stool.
Buchanan got off his stool to begin the 14th but the ref had stopped the fight claiming that Buchanan was in no fit state to continue. I can remember talking to Kenny about this and he says that after the fight there was a dent in his cup where Duran had landed the blow. He also claims his nuggets were swollen for a considerable time afterwards!

I dont think he was winning the fight to be honest, but he was certaily stopped on a low blow.

To say that he stayed on his stool is quite simply wrong. the tape i have of the fight is the american coverage and at the end of the fight theres an interview with LoBianco, interviewed in the ring, where he is asked what happened. LoBianco states quite clearly that he stopped the fight as Buchanan "was in no state to continue". You can see quite clearly at the beginning of the 14th when the ref goes to Buchanans corner to check on him that Kenny is saying "Im alright, I'm alright" just as LoBianco turns and waves the fight off.

LoBianco also states in the same interview that Durans was a legitimate punch which hurt Buchanan as there was no way he could be hurt so much from a low blow due to the fact Buchanan was wearing a protector.

There was a photo emerged a year or two back taken just a few feet away that shoes the punch landing. Fair brings a tear to the eyes!!

As if a referee would wave off a defending champion sitting on his stool? Buchanan had had enough. Gil Clancy and Tom Buchanan pulled their man out.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Dec 2004, 13:46

Just for the record, I regard Ken Buchanan as the greatest fighter these shores have ever produced. Better than Lewis, Eubank, Naz...the lot.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 17 Dec 2004, 13:55

bennie wrote:
neil r wrote:
bennie wrote: The Scot had the chance to come out for the 14th round, but stayed on his stool.
Buchanan got off his stool to begin the 14th but the ref had stopped the fight claiming that Buchanan was in no fit state to continue. I can remember talking to Kenny about this and he says that after the fight there was a dent in his cup where Duran had landed the blow. He also claims his nuggets were swollen for a considerable time afterwards!

I dont think he was winning the fight to be honest, but he was certaily stopped on a low blow.

To say that he stayed on his stool is quite simply wrong. the tape i have of the fight is the american coverage and at the end of the fight theres an interview with LoBianco, interviewed in the ring, where he is asked what happened. LoBianco states quite clearly that he stopped the fight as Buchanan "was in no state to continue". You can see quite clearly at the beginning of the 14th when the ref goes to Buchanans corner to check on him that Kenny is saying "Im alright, I'm alright" just as LoBianco turns and waves the fight off.

LoBianco also states in the same interview that Durans was a legitimate punch which hurt Buchanan as there was no way he could be hurt so much from a low blow due to the fact Buchanan was wearing a protector.

There was a photo emerged a year or two back taken just a few feet away that shoes the punch landing. Fair brings a tear to the eyes!!
As if a referee would wave off a defending champion sitting on his stool? Buchanan had had enough. Gil Clancy and Tom Buchanan pulled their man out.

can only go on whats on the tape. and if ive a tape of buchanan saying "im alright, im alright" as the ref waves the fight off, then goes on to state that he stopped the fight because in his opinion Buchanan was in no state to continue, then that will do me bennie.

Buchanan says in his autobiography that he was on his stool in between the 13th and 14th round when he looked up and saw LoBianco in the middle of the ring raising Durans hand.

In a television studio the next day, watcing a re-run of the fight LoBianco admitted that the punch was low and after the bell, but said that he made his decision "on the spur of the moment, just like any normal referee"

Interestingly enough this fight was LoBiancos first world title fight. He was never allowed to referee another.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Dec 2004, 13:57

neil r wrote:
bennie wrote:
neil r wrote: Buchanan got off his stool to begin the 14th but the ref had stopped the fight claiming that Buchanan was in no fit state to continue. I can remember talking to Kenny about this and he says that after the fight there was a dent in his cup where Duran had landed the blow. He also claims his nuggets were swollen for a considerable time afterwards!

I dont think he was winning the fight to be honest, but he was certaily stopped on a low blow.

To say that he stayed on his stool is quite simply wrong. the tape i have of the fight is the american coverage and at the end of the fight theres an interview with LoBianco, interviewed in the ring, where he is asked what happened. LoBianco states quite clearly that he stopped the fight as Buchanan "was in no state to continue". You can see quite clearly at the beginning of the 14th when the ref goes to Buchanans corner to check on him that Kenny is saying "Im alright, I'm alright" just as LoBianco turns and waves the fight off.

LoBianco also states in the same interview that Durans was a legitimate punch which hurt Buchanan as there was no way he could be hurt so much from a low blow due to the fact Buchanan was wearing a protector.

There was a photo emerged a year or two back taken just a few feet away that shoes the punch landing. Fair brings a tear to the eyes!!
As if a referee would wave off a defending champion sitting on his stool? Buchanan had had enough. Gil Clancy and Tom Buchanan pulled their man out.
can only go on whats on the tape. and if ive a tape of buchanan saying "im alright, im alright" as the ref waves the fight off, then goes on to state that he stopped the fight because in his opinion Buchanan was in no state to continue, then that will do me bennie.

Buchanan says in his autobiography that he was on his stool in between the 13th and 14th round when he looked up and saw LoBianco in the middle of the ring raising Durans hand.

In a television studio the next day, watcing a re-run of the fight LoBianco admitted that the punch was low and after the bell, but said that he made his decision "on the spur of the moment, just like any normal referee"

Interestingly enough this fight was LoBiancos first world title fight. He was never allowed to referee another.

Neil, LoBianco refereed plenty other world title fights. Face it, Buchanan's corner retired their man.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 17 Dec 2004, 14:01

what colour are the clouds in your world bennie?

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 17 Dec 2004, 15:53

neil r wrote:what colour are the clouds in your world bennie?

Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. As opposed to tartan myth.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 17 Dec 2004, 16:26

bennie wrote:
neil r wrote:what colour are the clouds in your world bennie?
Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. As opposed to tartan myth.

A journalist quoting accuracy?? ok then so your accuracy over Gil Clancy and Kens old man pulling him out is based on....

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 17 Dec 2004, 16:53

neil r wrote: Buchanan says in his autobiography that he was on his stool in between the 13th and 14th round when he looked up and saw LoBianco in the middle of the ring raising Durans hand.

In a television studio the next day, watcing a re-run of the fight LoBianco admitted that the punch was low and after the bell, but said that he made his decision "on the spur of the moment, just like any normal referee"

Interestingly enough this fight was LoBiancos first world title fight. He was never allowed to referee another.

Just took a look at Buchanan's autobiography and sure enough he does say that was LoBianco's first and only World title fight. Of course, that is hopelessly inaccurate. He'd taken charge of many title fights for years before and after. I'm sure he ref'd Ali v Shavers in 1977 among others.

Ken also has his name wrong. He repeatedly refers to him as Tony LoBianco, when it was Johnny LoBianco.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 17 Dec 2004, 20:01

I don't think Ken would have quit, he had too much balls (no pun). The guy was in agnony and I don't think would have recovered in a sole minute.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 17 Dec 2004, 23:29

Wasn't Buchanan getting a hiding, From what i can remember he was losing badly and the stoppage was better for him.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 18 Dec 2004, 07:57

Ben Keilty wrote:Wasn't Buchanan getting a hiding, From what i can remember he was losing badly and the stoppage was better for him.

Oh yeah theres no doubt Ken was losing, despite what he thinks. He certainly was losing more rounds than he was winning. I certainly dont think that if the fight had gone the distance that Buchahan would have won. I think maybe a 'hiding' is a but hefty! Danny Williams got a hiding.

As for the stoppage, being good for him. Well maybe yes and maybe no. Certainly from a health point of view, but then he wasnt taking a heavy beating. From a psychological point of view however its very much a different tale If the fight had gone the distance and Kenny lost or if he had been ko'd or stopped on cuts then I dont think he would have had too much cause for complaints. But the manner in which the stoppage occured and the circumstances round it are what caused his future troubles. I know how much the world championship meant to him, what it represented and how he was so proud of the manner in which he won it. theres no way on the world either he or his father would have given it up under such circumstances sitting on a stool.

Despite whatever "accuracy accuracy accuracy" our journalist friend cares to mention

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 18 Dec 2004, 10:15

neil r wrote:
bennie wrote:
neil r wrote:what colour are the clouds in your world bennie?
Accuracy, accuracy, accuracy. As opposed to tartan myth.
A journalist quoting accuracy?? ok then so your accuracy over Gil Clancy and Kens old man pulling him out is based on....

....the fact that it happened.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 18 Dec 2004, 11:39

I've watched the fight a few times over the years, and I always got the impression Ken was trying his best to win by dsq. Desparate measures I guess, as he had no way back really.
He must've realised he wasn't going to KO Duran, and it was a blatant foul by the Panamanian - other refs might have awarded the fight to Ken ( like the Moore fight the other day ).
Obviously it backfired, and I think that might have been when Buchanan said "I'm alright": when he reaslised the fight was going to Duran...

Great champion though, just unlucky enough to come up against the greatest lightweight of all time.

Manos de Oro · Post by **Manos de Oro** » 18 Dec 2004, 12:44

Never scored the fight before, but decided to after reading this post this morning. I'll paste the scorecard below so it's easy to skip.

Anyway, he was heading for a valiant points defeat - not by any means a shut-out - but a clear loss. I've always thought he made a meal of the low-blow. It was real, it was painful, it was a way out with the belt; 'school him in the rematch'. It's what I, and many other true 110% Scots would have done in the same position. Nothing to be ashamed of trying to get the edge. Buchanan was an intelligent fighter.

My scorecard for the fight wrote:1 - Duran makes Buchanan touch down with first right hand thrown, a right hand counter that lands on his left tricep and knocks his balance off-front. Duran almost goes down 20 seconds later after left hook cuffs him round the ear, falls into the ropes but is unhurt. Duran fighting like maniac, lands the more shots, harder shots, but also misses a lot because of Buchanan's awesome footwork. Would probably have been a close (but clear) 10-9 round to Duran without the knockdown.

2 - Nice movement at start again from Buchanan, kinda flutters around the ring. Big right hand catches him after about half a minute, takes it fine, then another catches him near his own corner, knees buckle slightly but looks pissed off at catching it in resulting clinch; good chin. Buchanan's footwork making Duran work for the punches, he also has a go at a light flurry halfway through the round but doesn't do enough to take it.

3 - Duran comes out blazing, lands a hard right soon after the start of the round. Buchanan moves well afterwards for most of the round. Duran not doing much, happy to stay stationary in center ring, maybe taking a breather. Buchanan looks like he doesn't know what punch to try, keeps flicking out the jab, but it's lacking the sting of his usual one. Duran gets some through in the clinches, but they're nothing punches. Finally Buchanan lands a significant punch - left hook - follows it up shortly after with a heavier left hook. Ends the round letting hands go with Duran in corner dodging. Could make a case for either fighter very narrowly edging it. Scoring it an even round.

4 - Buchanan starts off mixing to head and body, decent right hand to liver of Duran but if fails to make a mark. Duran tries his own body shot with left but it looks to stray a bit low. Duran lands big right hand that knocks Buchanan's head sideways. Buchanan keeping a rabid Duran at bay with the movement, really needs to stop getting in clinches as Duran keeps working (and scoring) in them, which is surprising since it's not like Buchanan is a novice, he is a good clincher. Answer: stay out of them altogether. Duran takes the round - workrate, power and volume of shots, being an effective enforcer.

5 - Fighters comes out swapping jabs, Duran would be wise to not play that game with Buchanan, stick to the right hands and controlled pressure. Aha, just as I say that Duran lands big right that rocks Buchanan who falls back to the ropes, another big right that lands clean, ANOTHER huge right rocks Buchanan's head to the side. fornicate sake, good chin, these are bombs. Buchanan, amazingly, keeps up with the lateral movement despite taking two more huge rights in the process. This man is fit. Duran presses him to a neutral corner and lands more right hands, finally gets Buchanan to stand and trade with him - shows how good a boxer Buchanan was that it took this long for Duran to force him to go toe-to-toe. Buchanan somehow still has a bounce in his step after taking yet another big right hand, actually throws a body to head combination. A lot of boxers would be undergoing a body to head examination by the doctor at this point. Duran takes the round 10-9, but it was a big round, approaching a 10-8, though Duran didn't land enough volume/accumulation for that. Buchanan picks up a slight cut under the left eye in this round.

6 - Duran rushes into his chest at the off, I bet his corner have told him to go for it now. Wait, what's this, he starts playing the jabbing game. Neither fighter ever establishes the jab during the round through and Duran wins the round on volume alone. None of the punches hurt Buchanan, and there doesn't look much to be on them anyway. Lots of clinching, but Duran had the slightly higher workrate.

7 - Buchanan starts off moving, but not as fleet as the start of the fight, seeming re-energized, but Duran keeps catching him at the most obscure of times. Must be annoying because Buchanan's movement is stylized, textbook stuff. Buchanan starts rifling off the jab while fighting on the back foot near the end of the round, Duran keeps scoring with the clean, obscure single shots though. Duran also keeps leaning in with the head (and has been doing it all fight) but Buchanan is being wise and facing the ceiling when in clinches against the ropes. I bet Duran's corner has told him to do that a) because Buchanan has had terrible cuts in the past b) he's got one now. Duran takes the round, pretty standard.

8 - Duran right in Buchanan's chest from the start. Buchanan neglecting the jab, electing to trade. Lots of clinching in the round. Right at the start of the round Duran leant in with the head really obviously and the referee didn't pick it up, looked like he said something to him though, but it wasn't like the proper warning you get nowadays, Duran keeps doing it though Buchanan wisely rests his chin on Duran's forehead every time he attempts it. Pretty bog standard round for Duran, neither seemed to go out and take the round, Duran's workrate alone got him it.

9 - Buchanan looking sluggish for his usual self: the jab lacks pop and the footwork has degenerated from world championship class, to world class. This is because Duran has eventually broke his rhythm. Just as I say that, Buchanan regains the spring in his step and then bang! Duran lands a right hand and takes it away from him five seconds later. Side note: notice how quick Duran cottons on to things like that, he did it in round six also, when he saw Buchanan wasn't going to be taken out he assessed the situation and changed the plan, within 10 seconds. Back to the round at hand, Buchanan is actually starting to get his shots off now, not much in them but they aren't pitty-patter either. Buchanan probably nicked this round with the cleaner, controlled punching.

10 - Duran charging, but Buchanan scoring with clean bursts of punching as Duran moves into him. Fucks sake referee, are you ever going to say something about that head-butting! It's not like there's a huge differential in height and it's inevitable - there only looks to be about an inch difference. He's been a good referee so far, letting the fight flow as much as possible, but he really should cotton on to that by now. Buchanan starting to let the hands go now, heavy shots that are landing. Duran missing wildly with Buchanan's ballet-class movement from side to side, round about. Buchanan getting the rhythm going now, popping the snappy double jab while moving, classy. Buchanan lands clean right hand flush towards the end of his best round of the fight. Buchanan clear winner of this round, quite astonishing how he turned that around. Crowd were deafening 'dew-ran! dew-ran!' at the start of the round but are ghostly quiet now - tells the story of this round. Buchanan 10-9 clear.

11 - Starts off like the last ended, Buchanan in control, succeeds in making Duran look one-dimensional. Duran constantly doing that leaning in with the head up against the ropes, the first and second times he does it they stand in a stupid looking pose for about four or five seconds straight before the referee separates, then the third time Buchanan is forced to put his head out the ropes and look out into the crowd away from Duran's lunging head! Then AGAIN near the end of the round Buchanan's whole torso is forced out the ropes to avoid the bad-intentious head. Where's Mickey Vann when you need him? Buchanan gets caught a few times in the round but not by hard shots, he looks tired but is able to see it through. Buchanan takes the round, not as cleanly as the last round, but the control and edge in punching give him the point.

12 - Buchanan willing to trade, and holding his own, Duran still doing that irritating lunging in the clinches. Both fighters looking like lethargy may be creeping in, Buchanan more so than Duran, who takes the round with four significant right hand shots that separate them. Duran 10-9.

The crowd were chanting for Duran again during this round, and when he gets back to the corner Arcel holds both his cheeks and looks to be trying to motivate him for the final push, they know he's in front.

13 - The fateful round. They start of trading equally like the previous rounds, Buchanan slightly getting the better of it with his combinations. Duran lands very low right hand on the referee's blind side, making Buchanan grimace and slightly double over, Duran presses on. They continue to trade with neither really taking the lead, both have their successes. Closing seconds of the round and Buchanan starts to lay it on, two or three hard straight right hands land to give him the round, the bell goes and the referee moves in to separate them, about half a second after the bell Buchanan throws another right hand, but Duran ducks it and comes up with a right-hook-cum-uppercut straight to the balls of Buchanan, pushing his cup protector upwards and causing him pain. The referee was jumping onto the back of Duran at the time, and had his head up at head-height and facing towards Buchanan's face; he probably saw the blow out of the corner of his eye, might have been hard to tell if it was low from that angle though. Buchanan falls to the floor, writhing. Clancy and co. come in and help him up and to his corner, the referee comes over and says stuff - impossible to mouth read since their backs are to the camera - and is then quite quick to wave it over with Buchanan still on his stool. When he sees the referee doing this he gets up and you can see him mouth to him "Am awright, naw, am awright." The ref's having none of it though as he goes over and lifts Duran's hand. The reign of terror begins...

Buchanan - Duran

8 - 10

9 - 10 (17-20)

10 - 10 (27-30)

9 - 10 (36-40)

9 - 10 (45-50)

9 - 10 (54-60)

9 - 10 (63-70)

9 - 10 (72-80)

10 - 9 (82-89)

10 - 9 (92-98)

10 - 9 (102-107)

9 - 10 (111-117)

__

10 - 9 [going into 14th] 120 - 126

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 18 Dec 2004, 14:24

bennie wrote:Just for the record, I regard Ken Buchanan as the greatest fighter these shores have ever produced. Better than Lewis, Eubank, Naz...the lot.

Jimmy Wilde??

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 18 Dec 2004, 14:26

stujones wrote:
bennie wrote:Just for the record, I regard Ken Buchanan as the greatest fighter these shores have ever produced. Better than Lewis, Eubank, Naz...the lot.
Jimmy Wilde??

I would rate Wilde above Buchanan.

JC · Post by JC » 20 Dec 2004, 12:27

KOJOE90 wrote:
stujones wrote:
bennie wrote:Just for the record, I regard Ken Buchanan as the greatest fighter these shores have ever produced. Better than Lewis, Eubank, Naz...the lot.
Jimmy Wilde??
I would rate Wilde above Buchanan.

I would like to be able to as well but have never seen any film of Wilde do you know of any?Cheers