Ingemar Johansson vs George Chuvalo, 15 rounds, primes

[The Great John L]

I guess I've never been as impressed w/ Chuvalo as some of the rest of you. He did beat Quarry -- with a bit of luck, I think -- as well as Doug Jones and a completely shot Cleveland Williams. But, as mentioned, he couldn't overcome Mathis, Rademacher -- or Ellis, Folley, or Eduardo Corletti either, come to think of it, and none of those guys was what you'd call "durable."

While I seem to agree with your general assessment of Ingo beating Chuvalo, I take exception to your questioning of the "durability" of Mathis and Ellis. Perhaps your definition of durable is different than mine, but as a HW Ellis was stopped 4 times, twice by Frazier, a stunning one puch KO by Shavers and a late rounds TKO by Ali. Of course, also during this career Ellis fought and beat tough guys like Martin, Patterson, Quarry, Doyle and Chuvalo. I for one would hardly question his durability, and in fact would say that his track record of "durability" was pretty good, given his resume.

Mathis was stopped twice, by Frazier and Lyle, hardly anything to be ashamed of. You mention that he "faded like a cheap shirt" against Frazier, and yet he lasted 11 rounds against a guy known for wearing down some very tough HWs.

[Mr E]

While I seem to agree with your general assessment of Ingo beating Chuvalo, I take exception to your questioning of the "durability" of Mathis and Ellis. Perhaps your definition of durable is different than mine, but as a HW Ellis was stopped 4 times, twice by Frazier, a stunning one puch KO by Shavers and a late rounds TKO by Ali. Of course, also during this career Ellis fought and beat tough guys like Martin, Patterson, Quarry, Doyle and Chuvalo. I for one would hardly question his durability, and in fact would say that his track record of "durability" was pretty good, given his resume.

Mathis was stopped twice, by Frazier and Lyle, hardly anything to be ashamed of. You mention that he "faded like a cheap shirt" against Frazier, and yet he lasted 11 rounds against a guy known for wearing down some very tough HWs.

Ellis and Mathis -- Ellis especially -- were good, quick fighters with skills. Neither was that easy to hit cleanly.

Mathis was big and strong enough to smother most of the bums he fought. The 5 guys he fought who were actually any good -- Frazier, Ali, Chuvalo, Quarry, and Lyle -- he only beat Chuvalo. Frazier and Lyle knocked him out and Ali and Quarry knocked him down. In all 4 fights he lost, he was exhausted at the end, and Ali at least could almost surely have stopped him had he given it 100%. To call hiim a "durable" heavyweight is, in my view, an incredible stretch.

Ellis was much better than Mathis -- not as big and strong but he hit harder for sure. People had to be careful charging in on him because the Walcott-esque right hand he threw could be deadly-- as Ringo Bonavena and Leotis Martin found out. I think Ellis is under-rated-- again, quick, good boxer, and he could hit a little. But take another look at the way he wound down against Ali and the almost casual way Ali took him out and tell me you consider that "durability" was among his personal strengths.

I don't have a big ax to grind on this one -- it's okay by me if Buster Mathis and Jimmy Ellis meet your definition of "durable." But I respectfully submit that I disagree.

[raylawpc]

I fail to see a guy who failed to go the distance with Patterson twice and who was basically KO'd by London having the durability to last 15 with a prime Chuvalo.

1. I am not conviced that even Mr. Durability himself - Chuvalo - would have survived the left hook with which Patterson flattened Ingo in the second fight. Getting knocked out by that left hook is no disgrace . . . for anybody. That hook was one of the most wicked punches in the history of championship boxing.

2. Inexpicably, Ingo was out of shape in fight No. 3, and arguably missed the count in a way similar to Quarry vs. Chuvalo. Its speculation to be sure, but I believe that Ingo would have stopped Patterson within 5 rounds had Ingo only been in shape (and might have eventually beat Floyd had he not mistimed the count).

3. How was Ingo "basically KO'd" by London"? Ingo boxed a near points shutout against London, and was knocked down in the last seconds of the 12th round. But he was up on his feet when the bell sounded for the end of the round. The idea that Ingo was out cold or on his back at the end is as much a myth as the five extra minutes Clay supposedly got between rounds against Cooper in '63. The film of the London fight clearly shows Ingo was upright at a count of four at the bell.